Please - advice on my WIP

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goatpiper

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So I've taken James Ritchie's advice from my 'Water from a stone' thread and have gone back to the beginning of my WIP. I think it's a great idea, and I'm having a much better time of things.

That said, I have some specific questions, and would love to hear what anyone has to say in response.

1. I invented a city for my novel setting. It's a pretty interesting place, and I am saddled with the problem of describing it without doing some kind of info dump (I've addressed this issue in a previous thread a few months back). I decided to start the novel on the day the city is celebrating its tri-centennial. This partially solved one problem I was having with the opening, and I think the focus on the city this creates will allow me a bit more leeway to describe it. Am I right or wrong? This is not a sci-fi/fantasy novel, but the city itself has some pretty fantastic elements to it. I know less is more, and helps the reader engage him/herself in constructing the setting in their mind, I'm just trying to figure out the maximum amount of 'less' I could do to achieve 'more'.

(Okay, if the above is too confusing, please let me know.)

2. I know it's important to really keep things moving in the opening of a novel, and I've already trimmed some of the static fat so things will move along better. I don't want to bore the reader and lose them in the first few pages. So could the following rough sequence of events work as an opening?

- MC wants to kill himself
- MC wants to jump off a high point in the city to accomplish this (city is perched high above the ocean on a cliff)
- Because of tri-centennial celebration, a thick crowd prevents him from accessing the edge of the cliff
- ***** He decides to go to his watering hole to drink and wait for the city to calm down - he'll kill himself later at night*****
- after spending time at the bar, he leaves to head back to kill himself, only to hear a woman cry out in pain - he goes where he thought he heard the sound to investigate, finds a man assaulting a woman, intervenes and ends up killing the man.

Now the asterisked point is the one that I'm nervous about. I get things going right away with my MC planning suicide, but I don't let the reader in on why he wants to do it. I like the contrast between a celebration going on and the dark way he's feeling. Should I try keeping it a shorter chapter, skip the bar scene, maybe put a version of it later in the book, and just have him encounter the assault on the way to rather than from the bar? I know it could work in the sense that the whole crowd of people in the city are watching a huge fireworks display, and are therefore distracted (crime tends to go up on holidays - I know this personally, since I've had my house robbed twice - once on St. Paddy's when I was a kid and once on July 4th when I was in college). I think trying to keep the bar scene in the beginning might be me trying too hard to introduce more about my MC early on. Does that sound likely, or is trying to do an early exposition like that a good idea?

Thanks so much to anyone who read this long thread, and thanks ahead of time for any comments.
 

goatpiper

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Okay - it may seem absurd that he is unable to kill himself initially, unless you know that he has a particular spot he wants to do it from. It's a special spot where he had his first kiss with his former wife, who was brutally raped and killed a bit over a year before the novel begins. I guess it sounds a bit cheesy, but I'm trying to keep it to a light dusting of grated parmesan.
 

LightShadow

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When it gets difficult is when you finally get going and your characters take your story into a direction you didn't really plan for. A chapter by chapter outline helps me, but my problem is that my outline doesn't take shape until after the sixth or seventh draft.
 

goatpiper

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I have a good idea where things are going, with potential subplots in mind, but I haven't really outlined anything. I make notes on characters, places, events, but it's very 'scribble and go'.

Some cool stuff has already come at me out of nowhere while writing this thing.

The coolest thing about where I'm at now is that I'm more excited about my WIP than ever. It's cool.
 

zornhau

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IMHO, you can have the bar scene - I can see how poignant the contrast will be - but something has to be happening during it, otherwise the story will come to an utter stop. How about have some of his mates drunkenly pester him to come and join the fun?
 

Jamesaritchie

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Info

I think many writers worry far too much about info dumps. An info dump is bad, but giving enough information for detail is good. Many try to avoid info dumps to such an extent that nothing they write has any detail, and isn't worth reading.

As writers, we're suppose dto be painting pictures our readers can see, and you can't do tis without a reasonable degree of information and description, and description is very rarely the same thing as info dumping, anyway.

Less may be more, but where description is concerned, too little is no good at all, and too much for writers and critics is often perfect for readers. Tell me something is happening in a starnge city, and I want to see the city. I want to see it, hear it, smell it, and taste it. If I can't do this, you may as well set the tale in Nowhere, USA.

My advice would be to describe the city, paint a picture of the city. If you need to cut back, you can do so later. Even better, read the novels of Harry Harrison. No one does description better.
 
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Andrew Jameson

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goatpiper said:
Now the asterisked point is the one that I'm nervous about. I get things going right away with my MC planning suicide, but I don't let the reader in on why he wants to do it. I like the contrast between a celebration going on and the dark way he's feeling.
One of my favorite authors, Martha Wells, does a similar thing in The Wizard Hunters. Her protagonist starts the book planning a suicide, but we don't really learn why until much later. The first line:
It was nine o'clock at night and Tremaine was trying to find a way to kill herself that would bring in a verdict of natural causes in court, when someone banged on the door.
I personally thought her first chapter was engaging and exciting. You can read it, if you want, on her web site.
 

Spirit_Fire

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It might be an idea to describe the city through the eyes of an outsider. After all, the readers will be outsiders themselves. If your protagonist comes from another city, or at least another part of the city, then the things he sees can be revealed as he sees them.

But if he actually lives there (which it sounds like he does) then maybe you could try it a different way. Like when he's about to commit suicide, tourists keep coming up and asking directions, where's this happening, why is that happening, etc. He can tell them all the info (and the reader at the same time), and get really angry with them for delaying his 'important plans'. It could also build up a bit of suspense. They'll be thinking 'Is he going to kill himself, or what?'
 

(grasshopper)

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Just a thought:

If you haven't committed yourself too strongly to having the opening scene describe the hero heading toward the cliff, you could change it to open with him sitting in the bar waiting for the festivities to subside while reminiscing about all the ills of the world, and about the ills of this city in particular. This would be a great time to briefly sketch out the things you want to say about the city. I'd save the details and reveal them in stages later. All you want to do here is establish the fact that there is a problem, that something is terribly wrong with the city (or whatever it is you have to say about it).

The fact that he is contemplating suicide must be revealed quickly. It can be done either directly or indirectly, but this is the hook that will catch the reader. (Perhaps the city is one of the forces driving him to suicide?)

I'm sensing that the energy of your hero is a bit weak. He's being pushed around by the forces of the city. (Like, he didn't know about the celebration and the possible crowds before he headed off?) He's waffling about when to do the "evil deed". Is this what you want? Nothing wrong with that if it is, it's just better if you do it on purpose. But I'd be careful not to drag it out. If you try to make this a "Hamlet" scene where he debates whether "To be or not to be", keep it short and sweet.

Oh, and by the way, regarding your question about whether to have the hero encounter the people on the way to the bar, or on the way back:

It's simply a matter of what point you want to make. Do you want the encounter to come from a waffling, weak-kneed hero, slinking off to a bar (don't get me wrong, a powerful message can be made from this) or do you want the encounter to come from a strong, decisive hero who is on a mission? (A mission of suicide, true, but a mission nevertheless.)

Personally, I'd go with the weak-kneed waffler. Lots of opportunity there for the character to grow and learn about himself. He might even be surprised at
some inner qualities he never realized he had, particularly since he's about to be put through a very severe test of moral strength.
 
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(grasshopper)

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Hi, goatpiper.

I sure hope I didn't put you off by that critique. Re-reading it now, I see that it might have been a bit harsh.

On the bright side, you've got an excellent start for a story. It's easy to see you are very excited about it. I hope it takes you where you want to go.

Good luck.
 

Wesley Smith

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Another way to go with the opening is to start with the woman during the celebration instead. Have her making her way back home or her hotel after the festivities when she's assaulted. When the protagonist saves her, she asks how she can thank him. He can answer, "Help me jump off the Doodah Cliff Tower."

I don't know how you have the hero and this woman interacting throughout the rest of the story, and it may radically change your viewpoint, but that was the obvious solution for me.
 

goatpiper

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Thanks for all the input. I appreciate the different perspectives, if only to color my own a bit.

No, Grasshopper, your post didn't seem harsh at all. No worries.

Hey, the first novel is the 'grand experiment', neh? So call me the mad scientist. I'm really glad I started over again, though, because things are rolling along better than ever, and I feel more free to just bang through something, scribble some notes, and I'll get back to it later.

One of the best pieces of advice I got from Pat Walsh's book '78 Reasons...' is that an unpublished writer has the advantage of time and should take advantage of it to craft a really kick-*** book.

So I'm trying.

Thanks again!!!
 

Josie

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Hi: I'm a new member, and a frequent lurker. So much to read in this place!

I liked James' comments about filling in info on the scenerio for the reader.
As an aspiring to be published novelist, I've learned that my first novels didn't have enough background information...now I'm dwelling on what is enough information. As I love the area where my novel is, it's easy to describe, though
I did forget about the senses of smell, hear, etc. Thanks, James :)
 

Stew21

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Maybe your character has a moment of contemplation at the cliff. What the city had meant to him before when he was happy. Some of the things he had done and loved about that city - giving full description to the joy he had in this particular piece of the city or that particular building, landscape or vista and how it had gone wrong, and now it held nothing for him.
Might be a good way to show the reader's despair, if it is compared to the joys he had in that city (and therefore providing you a vehicle to describe it).
just a thought.

Trish

I just looked at this brilliant (ha) little piece of opinion, and realized that I told you it would show the "reader's despair" - I'm thinking I meant the CHARACTER'S despair - Wow! sort of changes the meaning a bit! sorry about that.
 
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