Scenes without conflict

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Diviner

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My novel, a historical work, has several scenes without conflict. These are plot advancing scenes as well as milieu and character development scenes. As I understand it, readers who enjoy historicals like to learn details about the time and setting. How serious a flaw is it to write a scene which shows characters getting to know each other or going about their daily lives without significant conflict?

Should I consider re-writing these scenes? I think they make the story richer. There is plenty of adventure and conflict in many scenes, but I don't always include it.
 

MMo

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According to Dwight Swain's Techniques of the Selling Writer, there are two types of building blocks for a novel or story. They are scene and sequel. The scene is where the action takes place, and it is roughly defined as "goal, conflict, disaster."

The goal isn't always earthshaking; it can be as simple as getting to the market before the stalls close, and being detained by XXXX who wants to drone on and on and on. The disaster isn't always big things blowing up, but something that eventually does stop the goal from being met (XXXX just HAS to tell that one last story).

These scenes lead into the connectors, the "sequels," which are characterized as -- ooops. Can't find my Swain; must have lent it out and not gotten it back yet -- anyway, the "sequel" is where the character reacts to the previous scene, reflects on it (this does not and probably should not be lengthy) and decides how to proceed, either by abandoning the goal and selecting another that has been presented or made possible by the previous scene, or by tackling the first goal in another manner, therefore leading into the next scene of: goal, conflict, disaster.

The sequel may be as brief as a sentence. Sometimes it seems they are incorporated into the beginning of the next scene.

If "sequels" are what you have that you are describing as scenes without conflict, you are probably okay, but you really need to look at your work with these terms in mind.

Good luck.

Mo
 
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maestrowork

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Diviner said:
My novel, a historical work, has several scenes without conflict. These are plot advancing scenes as well as milieu and character development scenes. As I understand it, readers who enjoy historicals like to learn details about the time and setting. How serious a flaw is it to write a scene which shows characters getting to know each other or going about their daily lives without significant conflict?

Should I consider re-writing these scenes? I think they make the story richer. There is plenty of adventure and conflict in many scenes, but I don't always include it.

There should always be conflict, even minor, internal ones. Look deep. Can you find, in your character development scenes, any conflict of interest, personalities? Even when two characters are just getting know each other, there would be subtle conflicts: one person may want something, and the other person may want something else. This is most evident, for example, in romance novels where the hero and the heroine might just be getting to know each other, but the readers can feel the tension (emotional or sexual).

If your scene is absolutely devoid of any conflicts, and just a bunch of characters talking, agreeing, having a good time, you should reconsider it, no matter how well it's written.
 

Diviner

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MMo said:
According to Dwight Swain's Techniques of the Selling Writer, there are two types of building blocks for a novel or story. They are scene and sequel. The scene is where the action takes place, and it is roughly defined as "goal, conflict, disaster."

Someone recently told me that Swain is somewhat "old hat," that the sequal is more properly woven into the conflict scene. This is causing at least part of my problem.

But I am beginning to realize that I have been using scenes to impart information, which I guess is a no-no. I want most of the scenes to remain, so I guess I need to do some major revision to bring out the conflicts . Sigh.

Thanks, both of you.
 

maestrowork

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Diviner said:
But I am beginning to realize that I have been using scenes to impart information, which I guess is a no-no. I want most of the scenes to remain, so I guess I need to do some major revision to bring out the conflicts . Sigh.

Thanks, both of you.

Yeah, that's info dump. Some people might argue that some info dumping is going, especially in a historical. But I think anytime you have pure info dumps without any internal/external conflicts, the scene becomes stale.
 

PastMidnight

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I'm glad that you posted this question, as I was wondering the same thing. I'm also writing a historical novel, and I find that many of my scenes are quite placid. The novel centers around my MC and her relationships with other women, and I find that many of the scenes are conversations and women's work (pickling, sewing, laundry, etc.). Thinking to what maestrowork was saying, I do think that I still have conflict. My MC is going through some major life changes during the course of the novel and she has a lot of internal conflict throughout the novel as she comes to term with things. I agree to take a look at your characters' reactions to these seemingly mundane situations. How do they react to the information that you're discussing? Does it worry them? Make them angry? I also show conflict through the different ways that characters react to information. One character reacts positively to something, which another character cannot understand, as she feels that it is bad news.

I agree with you that there tends to be more lengthy descriptions in historical fiction. The writer sometimes needs more words to set a scene, explain conventions of the time, etc. As an avid reader of historical fiction, I don't mind this, as long as I can still find some conflict and plot advancement.
 

zornhau

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Thrillers often use short scenes which themselves don't contain conflict.

However, each scene tends to relate either to a very powerful and explicitly set up conflict, or to an adjacent scene. Think moves in a game of chess. (I call these Positional Scenes).

For example:

Scene 1: Prince John decides to slaughter all Jews.
Scene 2: Not knowing of the decree, his henchman, Sir Bonkalot falls in love with a beautiful Jewess.

Niether scene need contain conflict, as long as each is short.
 

LightShadow

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A story without conflict is one that remains unpublished, for the most part.

Conflict, be it emotional, physical, political, or whatever, must always be present. Why else would a reader want to read on? There's a reason why you never see a character go to the bathroom in books and movies (unless of course it's to escape, or flush contraband down the toilet). It's because people live in the real world, and going to the toilet is just another part of that real life. Readers read because they want a good story full of conflict away from the real world. If you have scenes that provide no conflict, unless they further the story along directly by complimenting your conflicts, I would consider deep-sixing them. Just a thought.

Perhaps, however, conflict is present, and you just don't know it. If the scenes are viable parts of the story, and too important to discard, then perhaps the conflict of your story seethes through the pores of those scenes, and you just haven't realized it.
 

maestrowork

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zornhau said:
T
Scene 1: Prince John decides to slaughter all Jews.
Scene 2: Not knowing of the decree, his henchman, Sir Bonkalot falls in love with a beautiful Jewess.
.

But there are conflicts, just not external. Look at these two again and you will find the conflicts within.
 

willietheshakes

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All due respect for everyone who has weighed in here, but I think a lot of this advice is questionable and perhaps misleading. You're writing a historical, which, as a genre, usually means a longer work. If you have a few scenes in which there is no conflict, or the conflict is very subdued, I don't think there's necessarily a problem. Texture, setting, etc are all important, and you've already stated that they advance the narrative.

Give the ms a little rest and read it back -- that's the test. If it works, don't worry about it. If it feels indulgent, then reconsider it.

Hard and fast guidelines are nice, but you shouldn't live your life, or craft your work, according to them.

Well, except that one about not letting guidelines run your life. That one you should follow all the time.
 

willietheshakes

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LightShadow said:
Conflict, be it emotional, physical, political, or whatever, must always be present. Why else would a reader want to read on?

Quality of the writing, quality of the characterization, interesting settings, interesting ideas, new information about whaling or the sewers of Europe. Plenty of reasons, really.

I understand what you're saying, and I know what you mean, but I think you're underestimating readers. No, they don't want to be bored, but not every book has to be the Da Vinci Code either...
 

Jamesaritchie

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Conflict

To be honest, I think such things as "Every scene needs conflict" are so formulaic, so removed from the way good writers actually write novels, that following such advice can only produce really bad novels. Stories need conflict. Every story needs an ongoing conflict, and a series of minor conflicts, but to say every scene needs conflict flies in the face of many, many extremely good novels I've read. Particularly historical novels.

A scene should be there for a reason, but that reason need have nothing at all to do with conflict. I mean, read a bunch of historical novels. If you can find conflict in every scene, you see things that I don't. Read James A. Michener. A historical novel without a lot of history is like a science fiction novel with no science.

Scene length is another thing that drives me crazy. There is no size limit on scene length. A scene, like a chapter, or the novel itself, should be as long as it takes to get everything in. This may be 200 words, or it may be 2,000 words, or it may be 20,000 words, and all three are fine.

When you start trying to write a novel according to rules like "Every scene needs conflict," "each scene should be this long or that short," "each scene should have a resolution," or each scene should have a sequel," you aren't writing fiction, you're putting together a jigsaw puzzle, and I guarantee the seams between the pieces are going to show.

I seriously don't believe any good writer does this. Not even the writers who write how-to books saying you should do this. When you read their actual novels, they seldom sound anything like the advice given in the how-to book.

What is it King says about his how-to book, "I can't tell you how I do what I do. I can only tell you what I think I did, after I did it."

It's my opinion that when a writer starts micro-managing paragraphs, scenes, chapters, and anything else, the writing and the story both suffer.

Readers don't give a rat's whisker about such things, and they shouldn't. Readers want a good story, filled with good characters. And they want the story, and the characters, to be set in a real, believable world, and not a world that's micro-managed to the point where every scene is this long or that long, has this happen or that happen, where every single scene has conflict. I mean, really, give the poor reader a break. In a 2,000 word short story, the reader doesn't need time to come up for air, doesn't need time to think, to ponder, to wonder, or just to daydream. But in a novel, a reader needs all these things.

And you can't micro-manage them into the novel, either.

Giving info is not automatically an info dump. Readers need and want information, they just don't want all of it at once. That's an info dump. But a single scene that's primarily or all info does not an info dump make. If you spread the info out, it's not a dump.

And you don't have to mix conflict with the info.

I think some how-to books are incredibly valuable, but they are never the ones that diagram exactly what you should do, how you should do it, and that break novels down into jig-saw puzzle pieces. A good rule. If the book contains a chapter called "How to write a scene," dump the book.

And they are never, ever ones written by writers famous only for writing a how-to book, or famous for writing novels or stories darned few have ever heard of. Fiction just doesn't work this way. There's something incredibly wrong about a writer being famous for a how-to book, rather than being famous for the fiction he or she writes.

Read all the bestselling historical novels you can find, or bestselling novels in any genre, and I doubt you'll find many, or any, that follow such micro-managing rules.

I mean, I simply don't know a selling novelist who even thinks about such things with every scene, or even with most scenes, while actually writing.

The idea is to tell a story, not to assemble a jig-saw puzzle. And the idea is to write scenes that have a reason for existing, not scenes that always have this, that, or the other, that are this short or that long. Any reason is good enough, and darned if I'd want to read a novel of any length if I knew each and every scene was going to follow any of these "rules." The last thing I want to do is read a novel where every scene has a certain length, or a certain content, be that content action, conflict, or the word rhubarb.

I think it's natural to look for advice, for diagrams, for detail by detail breakdowns of how good novels are written, for how scenes are written, but I don't think such things really exist, and wouldn't work if they did. New writers seem to think novels are like TV pictures, made up from millions of little pixels, and you can look at each of these pixels and see how the picture was made.

Novels are more like paintings. Yes, there are brush strokes you can see. The novel does need a plot, it does need conflict, but the strokes are broad, never the same twice in a row, and and the painting is always greater than the strokes that made it. Godo novels, like good paintings, just can't be done by using a paint by the numbers kit and filling it teh little spaces according to the number.

Read novels, then write a novel. Write it the way you want to read it, not the way someone you've probably never heard of before seeing his or her how-to book says write it. Write it like the ones you've read (And this does not mean turn the one you red into pixels and try to reconstruct one just like it. It just means if you really liked that story and those character, do the same, only with yourself added.), and more, write it like the one you really, really want to read next. If you have a reason for writing a scene, then write the scene, and don't have a heart attack should it be too long, too short, or, gasp, lacks conflict.
 
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blacbird

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I was about to post something similar to what JAR just said, but in less detail and with less eloquence. Summed up, it goes: A scene doesn't have to have its own distinct conflict (or tension, which might be a better word). I think it does need to relate to the overall story in such a way that it partakes of the overall story conflict, even if only in background or atmosphere. But the main thing any scene needs to do is to move the story (and the reader) forward.

caw.
 

Jamesaritchie

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LightShadow said:
Conflict, be it emotional, physical, political, or whatever, must always be present. Why else would a reader want to read on? .

Because the scene is interesting, tells me something I want to know, makes me laugh, gives me insight about a character or characters, and a host of other reasons.
 

Jamesaritchie

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blacbird said:
I was about to post something similar to what JAR just said, but in less detail and with less eloquence. Summed up, it goes: A scene doesn't have to have its own distinct conflict (or tension, which might be a better word). I think it does need to relate to the overall story in such a way that it partakes of the overall story conflict, even if only in background or atmosphere. But the main thing any scene needs to do is to move the story (and the reader) forward.

caw.

I think "tension" is a great word, and probably illustrates the point even better. There are times every so often in any novel when the last thing the reader wants is more tension, more conflict. Times when he needs to get away from the tension and conflict, to relax for a minute, to take a deep breath, to laugh, etc.

It's the coffee break we all need during a hard day, or the cold beer with the boys on Friday evening after a long, hard week.

Such scenes, such breaks, make the next session of tension/conflict even more tense. A good novel might be described like a rubber band that's sometimes stretched to the breaking point, and sometimes relaxed.

But I'm not sure you can plan these out in exacting detail, either. It's a matter of rhythm, flow, and pace, and such things are felt more than planned in some exacting manner.
 

PastMidnight

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I always feel a pressure to write a suspenseful story. I'm not even sure where I perceive this pressure to come from. Maybe it's because I write historical and I know how some historical novels can tend towards long-windedness. Maybe it's because so many popular novels (like Da Vinci Code) are nonstop suspense and action. Like Divener, I am always trying to make sure that I have enough conflict or tension in my writing. Why do you think it is that constant tension seems to be a requirement for a good story in some people's eyes? The variety of responses to this thread seem to suggest that, at least for some people, it is necessary.
 

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PastMidnight said:
I always feel a pressure to write a suspenseful story. I'm not even sure where I perceive this pressure to come from. Maybe it's because I write historical and I know how some historical novels can tend towards long-windedness. Maybe it's because so many popular novels (like Da Vinci Code) are nonstop suspense and action. Like Divener, I am always trying to make sure that I have enough conflict or tension in my writing. Why do you think it is that constant tension seems to be a requirement for a good story in some people's eyes? The variety of responses to this thread seem to suggest that, at least for some people, it is necessary.



I don't think constant tension is a requirement for anyone except writers who think you have to write this way. It certainly isn;t a requirement in massive numbers of bestsellers.

I'm not the least bit fond of Da Vinci Code, and I think it gets by completely on what the story is about, rather than on how it's written. but even Da Vinci Code has it's ups and downs, highs and lows. Good suspense is a roller coaster ride, not just a steep hill.

Watch the Indian Jones movies. One thrill after another, but with breaks here are there so the viewer can breathe.
 

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I don't agree that every chapter must contain conflict. At some point the story and the reader needs a small rest, and it's perfectly acceptable to spend a chapter further developing a character or pursuing more of the plot. It's basically whatever the story demands at that point.

I cringe anytime I see absolutes such as this. Literary rules are being broken all the time and the old formulas are getting a bit threadbare for their overuse and stingent adherence. Even the idea of one POV per scene is being challenged - though I don't recommend that anyone wander into those muddy waters unless at the approval of their editor.

Your best friend is to simply read your story and see what each new chapter calls for. It will increase the flow between the chapters if you mix it up.
 

reph

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PastMidnight said:
I always feel a pressure to write a suspenseful story....Why do you think it is that constant tension seems to be a requirement for a good story in some people's eyes?
A suspenseful story doesn't have equal tension at all moments. That would be boring.

I think people talk that way about tension because stories that entirely lack tension are terrible, and the absence of tension is a common fault in beginners' stories.
 

maestrowork

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What it comes down to is what makes it interesting to the readers? Conflict, by nature, is interesting. If it's external, it's drama. If it's internal, it's character development. If you can make a conflict-free scene interesting, then go for it. But a scene must do one or more of the following: advance the plot, develop the character, strengthen the themes.
 

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I would also add that scenes can have an underlying conflict without being overt.

For instance, if you have a scene where two characters are total strangers, that's conflict in and of itself. They may be "just talking" and getting to know one another, but the underlying conflict is still there.

Cheryll
 

SeanDSchaffer

I've noticed that the best books I've ever read have scenes that have virtually no conflict or tension in them at all. Simple scenes that are humorous or that are filled with detail, can be crucial to the telling of the story. The reason is that a good storyteller tells the whole story, not just the exciting parts. A good story has a mixture of exciting and not-so-exciting, but all of it works together to make the story a satisfying read.
 

Cheryll

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reph said:
Cheryll, why is conflict automatically present between two strangers?

To me, there is a natural underlying tension between two people who are just getting to know one another. You're trying to decide what to say, what to do, you're wondering what the other person thinks of you, etc.

It's subtle, but it's there.

Cheryll
 
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