Writer's Groups

I'm part of an on-line critique group, and I think it's been the best thing for my writing. It would have taken me 10 times longer to get here on my own (which is still unpublished, but hopeful).

But like any group, it has strengths and weaknesses, and it does take effort every week to participate. I think some writing groups could be a waste of time, not necessarily because they're bad, but because they focus on things that aren't what you need or want.

The writing group that I was in was a mixed bag in terms of abilities and seriousness. We had everyone from an playwright who had already had several plays performed to a high school student who just wrote fanfic for fun. So while I didn't learn a whole lot about technique or style, I thought thtat the group was helpful in that it motivated me to get writing done. We only met once a month, so it was a reasonable goal for me to get a chapter done a month to present at our meeting. And then the comments from everyone got me fired up to do it again the next month. I miss the writing group for the motivation factor and also because they were a fun bunch of folks!

On Writing Groups

The writing group I belonged to was interesting and fun. A club atmosphere centered around a luncheon and speaker who was either selling their books (of course I bought them all) or new writers gaining exposure. As much fun as it was, it cut down on my valuable time to write and was a drain on my energy and funds. I do think that an online group would dispense with a lot of social time and probably be more helpful for me personally. We had a great annual writer's conferrence and I do think the agent contacts you make are worth the attendance and expense.

Is AW not a writers' group? It's definitely the most supportive, knowledgeable, helpful group I've ever known and been involved with.

AW is definitely supportive. I also belong to imaginaries.org, an online critique group, who proved useful and supportive at times, although I don't spend much time there any more.

The other, more 'pro' oriented group I belong to is Backspace - www.bksp.org - It costs $30 a year to join but has a much higher ratio of published authors, regular Q&A sessions with authors/publishers/agents and also counts several publishers and agents amongst it's membership. At last count I think they had around 20 members publish (not self publish!) novels in 2005.

My critique group is being completely helpful. We are a group of eight doing 4 critiques each month. We are honest with each other...totally supportive. When it doesn't work we tell each other and when it does work we tell each other.

My Writing circle ( www.wcdr.org ) is a group of about 250. I'm on its board of directors. It has changed my life! I would recommend such a group to anyone.

They are helpful to sometimes and are a great source of inspiration in times of creative drought. If you're in the right group, they can teach discipline that can be carried forward in times when you're writing alone and need to push through. Personally, I liked my time as part of a writer's group but because I moved I had to leave it. Some of them are still a part of my beta reader's group because I appreciated their critiques.

Like most things, there are good writing critique groups and bad ones. I've belonged to both kinds in the 25 years I've been writing, howeve....I went to the RWA convention in Reno last year and more than one agent/editor said they could almost ALWAYS spot a manuscript that came out of a critique group because they were so homogenized. I came home and dropped out of my group. I figured it was time I learned to trust my own judgement and learned to critique my own work.

Just curious - how man men are in critique groups?

Carlene

Carlene said:

I figured it was time I learned to trust my own judgement and learned to critique my own work.

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I think that's important. Listen to what others say, but trust your own judgement, if you want to be in a writing group. I like my group, because I am always interested in hearing what people think of my work. But I wouldn't make a chance to my manuscript I didn't believe in.

I think it depends on the group. I love my group. The suggestions and criticisms are usually on target and helpful, and we all have our own distinct styles. I think it helps prevent the homogenization problem that we don't all write in the same genre, too.

Mine has pretty much disappated...only one or two of us make it each week. I miss writerly talk. The other one I go to (a meetup) I currently have schedule conflicts with. I miss them terribly, they were extremely motivating.

I joined Rocky Mtn Fiction writers last year in hopes of joining a group, but most were at times that confilicted with work or other egagements, or times with no babysitter available.

I would really like to get more to come to the saturday morning thing I do, or join another.

I've never been in a novel critique group. For short story critiques, I found that a writing workshop, where the focus was nothing but writing & critiquing, was a lot more useful than trying to do an online group on top of normal life. Everyone was at approximately the same skill level, everyone was willing to put in as much work as was needed, and it was a controlled environment, so we didn't have any Critiquers of Doom who wasted your time (or Writers of Doom who refused to listen to what anyone else had to say about their work.)

The critiques also seemed a lot less harsh when you could sit down at meals with the people who critted you and see that, no, they're not trying to kill your babies, they're trying to make your babies better.

Writing groups can take a lot of energy, and depending on the skill level of the other people, their goals, and how it's run, they might not be worth it.

They're all a little different; some have published members in them, some do not. I gave a talk once to a group at a library--none had been published yet. My talk was how to get published and what to avoid. The reason I did this was because they had recently been given a talk by the group leader's uncle who had been published by . . . Trafford. I was afraid he had given them a skewed opinion on how to get published, IOW, paying for publication through a vanity press worked for him, it would work for everybody.

So I gave them my talk which included money flows to writer, look for books in stores similar to yours, use Writers Market for publishers and agents, crosscheck with P&E, writing queries, may take months and over a hundred submissions before getting published, etc. You know, all the stuff we talk about here. I also recommended lulu for one of the member's family history, and emphasized that lulu or self pubbing should only be used for narrow subject matter with limited appeal.

The members of the group later sent me some very nice feedback emails about my talk.

The group's leader sent me a couple VERY LONG emails about why vanity publishing was perfectly OK no matter what the subject matter, why it was OK to drive all over town to try to get stores to stock your book, why I was kind of a jerk for even suggesting otherwise, etc. etc. etc.

I thanked her for the feedback and never went back to the group.

I was on her email list for a while. Most of the emails were about the best places for the group to meet: libraries, restaurants, houses, until I received one about how the next guest speaker was going to tell them "how to get happily published."

I didn't read the emails after that and soon dropped off her list.

There are other writers groups in my area besides that one, but the overall experience with Trafford girl left me with a bad taste in my mouth.

allen

I think there are serious writers, and then there are writers who just want to see their names on a cover. Like agents, a bad writer's group is worse than no writer's group at all.

maestrowork said:

Like agents, a bad writer's group is worse than no writer's group at all.

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Which reminds me. . . a good writer's group that turns bad is worse than no group at all too. Aside from the knowledge level, publishing experience, etc., part of the equation of what makes a "good" writer's group, is group dynamics, and sometimes, it only takes the addition or subtraction of a single member to alter the whole group.

I have experienced that phenomenum numerous times Oh, sorry about that, I had a flashback of one of my dicier writer's groups experiences. Ironically, my worst writing group experience occured within the best writing group I have ever been involved in.

My writing group is great. We meet once a fortnight. The first half hour or so is for reading out work and getting comments on it. We then do an exercise that someone has brought in which gets everyone writing. We also try to set homework so there is something to work on during the fortnight. We also set targets and are entering a competition. The group focuses my writing and helps me to set deadlines. We can also hand work out that people can take away and comment on. We also have critique sessions and workshops.

The last group I joined spent most of their time talking and not actually doing anything. Some of us got kicked out of that group for complaining and so we set up our own.

Groups

I love writing groups, I hate critique groups. Don't need them, don't want them, can't use them, and I can darned sure write my own fiction better without them.


Writing groups, now, where like-minded people simply meet to encouarge, to whine, to moan, to talk, are, I think, extremely valuable.

Considering that I co-founded a critique group, I'm probably biased ... Yes, I think that they can be enormously helpful. But a lot depends on a couple of things.

The first is leadership. Many writing groups get formed because the founder wants to get their work critiqued, and they never give any consideration to actually leading the group.

The second is the individual writer's expectations. Some come with a "Me, first," "Me, first," attitude. They're in a rush to get their work critiqued so they can get out right away. The true benefit of critiques isn't from getting your work critiqued--it's critiquing everyone else's. I appreciated them letting me critique their work because that's where I really learned what I needed to do to fix mine.

The third is that group has to have rules and guidelines. If it doesn't, that'll be a red flag that there may be problems or a lack of focus. We use guidelines like no self-publishing and new members don't submit for critiques until they've attended three meetings. Those two alone weed out people who want instant fixes to their problems.

The fourth is that some writers' groups are simply social outlets. Some people will just come to it to chat with people for the entire time. Which is fine if that's what all the people in the group want. However, even in a working group, there should be some social activity. Otherwise, it becomes too much like work, and then it isn't fun.

I personally am for same genre critique groups. While someone who reads in another genre can tell you the story doesn't feel like it's working, they can't tell you when you haven't done the job genre-wise. I could easily see someone who regularly reads romances liking a fantasy novel but misses the fact that the fantasy writer did too little on the world building. Or a military thriller writer sharply criticizing elements in a Woman's Fiction book that are entirely appropriate for that genre but would be inappropriate for his (I've seen that one online).

Carlene said:

Just curious - how man men are in critique groups?

Carlene

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Mine consists mostly of men--we've had a hard time recruiting women.

Wow, I could have written several of the messages in this thread, although I'd probably make more typos.

I find online critique groups have been of no help. Some are clearly better than others, and of course a whole lot depends on who's in the group, but the logistics of marking a manuscript for cyberspace are pretty daunting and the qualifications of some who critique highly questionable. I've done quite a few critiques online but never received one that I found helpful. Meh.

A single genre or very closely related genres (thriller, suspense, and mystery, for instance) is vital, IMO. I'm most certainly not qualified to give meaningful input for genres I don't even read. (I'm likely to suggest the raven-haired beauty needs a bomb strapped to her back, or a knife in her hand, more than she needs the handsome veterinarian.)

Group dynamics matter a lot. My present group is very small but works well. The larger group used to work until a particularly strong-willed member joined, after which it always divided on 'party lines,' allowing personal feelings about the authors to influence their critique. Don't slam my manuscript because you're Sally's ally--slam it because it's weak.

Rules. Gotta have 'em. Sometimes we choose to bend or break them, but we always return to them. We found it vital to have a system in place for dealing with problems before they arose, and it worked for many years, failed once, and now works again.

Diversity of members is ideal, but hard to achieve. It's important to us for everyone to be writing at a similar level of expertise, in similar genres, and our efforts to recruit people different from ourselves haven't produced anyone who writes at a similar level. (Please note that it isn't total elitism, but that we expect members to be able to construct and punctuate a sentence.) We, too, have a hard time recruiting men--one moved away just because of some job, and another died on us. Like those are valid excuses!

Being in a group, whether it's a writers' group or a critique group, creates expectations that all members will write. For some, this is necessary and helpful. The best groups' meetings break up with members rushing home to write, freshly enthusiastic.

The social aspect is important. Were it not for writing groups, there would have been periods in which I'd have had no one to ask questions about writing, publishing, etc. (Now I have all of you, of course--thanks!)

Of course, the writer has to rely on his or her own judgment about what changes to make to the manuscript based on input from a group. In the end, whose name goes on it?

Maryn, whose real name doesn't go on many

i belong to two writers groups. One is a free write group, wheich is a definite plus. We share what we have written but give little feedback. The emphasis is on writing from prompts. The others in the group are wonderful with words, and I learn a lot from how they develop a story from the same prompt I used.

The other group is a crit group. They are helpful in spotting details and sometimes illogical or insufficient development, but they do not see the big picture of the novel. Still, I find participation worthwhile if only because i still learn from the weakness and strength of others.

I don't use writer's groups, but only simply because I don't. Whatever can help your writing can't hurt, unless the members of the group are a bunch of softies and are afraid to tell you your stuff stinks when it is seriously putrid.

Couldn't agree more

LightShadow said:

I don't use writer's groups, but only simply because I don't. Whatever can help your writing can't hurt, unless the members of the group are a bunch of softies and are afraid to tell you your stuff stinks when it is seriously putrid.

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I was in an online writing group with three other people but dropped out for several reasons: 1) I was spending too much time critiquing and not writing; 2) two of the participants were sporadic in their submissions; 3) the comments I received were very homogenized and sounded like they came from people who spent too much time taking writing classes instead of writing; and 4) one of the participants novel was soooooo bad and boring that I would rather have stuck pins in my eyes than read his manuscript. I know that sound bad, but it's the truth. I may eventually try the Absolute Write boards for opinions but for now I'm going to try and work it out by myself.

Have a great day,
Valerie A.