My pit bull is on trial

[Paint]

My pit bull character is on trial for killing a mountain lion. (Endangered species) I have not been able to come up with any arguments to get her off. (Although one of her relative breeds won Westminster this week.) She is half lab.
The public wants to kill her for not only killing the lion but being a pit bull and a public menace.
She killed the lion while the lion was killing a Jack Russell Terrier. The lion had also injured a rescue lab who was trying to rescue the terrier. (This is in a mountain rescue scene) Enter pit bull, Zoe, who then killed the lion.
Zoe is almost a year old.

Any suggestions?

[Jewel101]

self-defense. The pit bull was trying to stop the mountain from killing the other two. Lion didn't like that and fought back. Pit bull ends up having to kill thelion to stop it for killing her

[Fern]

Self defense, like Jewel said. For the legal aspect of it. . .then could you have the pit bull do something to make the people soften; perhaps staying with the other two dogs to keep them safe until help comes or going for help. Maybe some old hermit was watching the fight and the pit bull's actions afterward in caring for the other dogs. The old guy didn't come forward until he knew they were going to kill the dog for fear the law would make him move out of the woods or something.

[D.J.]

Yes, like the others said, it was self-defense. I learned in my concealed handgun class, that one can use deadly force if it is warranted to save the innocent life of another. Besides, the possible threat of the lion coming for him next would only give more validity to self-defense.

[DaveKuzminski]

Um, the pit bull could sing on the witness stand, "He had it coming." ;)

[Tish Davidson]

Yesterday (2/14) Terri Gross on NPR's Fresh Air interviewed the head of the Animal forensics DNA lab (maybe not its exact name) at UC Davis. Anyway, this woman talked about how the lab matched animal DNA found at the scene of crimes that placed either people or animals there. For example, a murderer claimed that he had never gotten out of his car at the victim's house, but dog hair was found on his clothes. DNA could be extracted from it and matched to the victim's dog giving circumstantial evidence that the murderer was at the very least out of his car and in her yard and quite probably in her house where the dog was found after the murder.

So, perhaps you could find DNA form the Jack Russell and the other rescue dog at the scene and that would give justification for your pit bull killing the lion. Anyway, if you want to listen to Terri Gross's interview, you can download it from the NPR website. Maybe it will give you some ideas.

[ideagirl]

This whole thing sounds kind of weird to me. I don't mean the pit bull killing the lion (although that alone surprises me), I mean the legal stuff. This concept of "being on trial" and "killing in self defense" does not apply to animals, because animals can't commit crimes. The owner is the one who would normally be on trial for the death of the mountain lion, assuming that (1) there would be a trial for that (I suspect it's just the kind of thing where you get fined, though I could be wrong), and that (2) your state imposes liability on owners for the acts of their animals (which they all do to some extent*). Whether the dog gets punished (i.e. killed) is a completely separate issue--to my knowledge, dogs don't normally get put down for attacks unless the attack was vicious and unprovoked, or if there's a history showing that particular dog to be dangerous (like if it's bit a few people in the past). So the owner could be found liable, and fined (or whatever the state's defined punishment is) for causing the death of a mountain lion, even if it WAS self defense; but the dog wouldn't be punished (i.e. put to sleep) unless the attack were vicious/unprovoked or the dog were known to be dangerous.

* FYI, most states impose STRICT liability on owners if their pet is legally defined as a wild animal; that means that if the pet causes harm to someone or something, the owner is liable no matter what, even if it's completely not their or their pet's fault. Laws like that are designed to discourage people from keeping wild animals as pets... but they define "wild" very broadly, like in some states ferrets count as wild! Anyway. My point here is just that normally, if you have a normal, non-wild-animal pet, you're not legally responsible UNLESS you did something wrong (like you let your pet out without a leash).

[Fern]

Ideagirl is right, of course, unless this is some kind of "talking animal" story.

Otherwise the dog would be considered the property of his owner.

Even though I answered as I did in my last post, I sort of assumed this was a community type gathering where the people were going to kill the dog. . .not necessarily before a court gathering, but like a mob of people scared of the dog after what they deemed a vicious killing.

[Leva]

In most areas where people deal with lions on a regular basis, the dog would be considered a hero. Please research this story some more before you write it, because it sounds like you haven't looked into the laws or actual attitudes about lions in rural areas where they exist.

I happen to live in an area where lions are just part of life. Most aren't a threat and I hope nobody takes this post to mean that I hate lions -- I'm actually glad that the current lion in my area is a "good" lion that seems to leave livestock alone. The ones that are not what I think of as "good" lions are generally dealt with summarily by whoever manages to get the lion in his gun sights first.

Mountain lions are NOT ENDANGERED. If anything, they're overpopulated in some areas. In my area, finding a deer or javelina is almost impossible -- I think the lion's surviving on bunnies and stray dogs.

In fact, they're legal to hunt. I generally buy a mountain lion tag with my hunting license -- a $10 stamp -- that lets me legally shoot 1 mountain lion per year. The reason I do this is that I have livestock, and I have guard dogs for the livestock. I've never had to shoot a lion, but the $10 stamp is cheap insurance to avoid trouble with the authorities.

By law, I can shoot -- without a tag or a hunting license -- any lion that attacks my livestock. But I have to turn over the carcasse if I do so. With a tag, I can then keep the hide and the skull and whatever else -- the hides tan nicely.

By law, I CAN'T shoot a lion if it's attacking my DOG if I don't have a stamp. And since my dogs are bonafide ranch dogs who can and will light into whatever predator comes in the yard (and this is encouraged -- they're ranch dogs and they have a job to do) it's more likely that I'll find myself dealing with a lion/dog fight vs. a lion in with my goats. My dogs HAVE gotten inot it with smaller predators like bobcats and coyotes and feral dogs.

Because of the legalities, I simply buy a lion stamp. That way if my dogs are fighting with a lion, I can shoot the lion. (And in fact, if you have a stamp, you can even use dogs to track a lion and run it to ground. This generally how problem lions are dealt with, unless someone gets a lucky shot off -- like the guy two miles up the road from me who shot a lion that was crouched in the bed of his pickup, stalking his horse.)

What I wouldn't expect would be for my dogs to KILL a lion. I'd be lucky if they survived the fight -- I rather hope they never have to tackle anything nastier than a coyote! Though most lions, if confronted with a pair of angry dogs, will generally run (or go up a tree) rather than fight. THe lion's life depends on not being injured -- if they get hurt, they can't hunt as well. So they tend to avoid fights where they might get hurt. -- Though the current lion by me has an appetite for large dogs and eats a few every year, judging by the kills (called "scrapes") that I've found.

In some states, the law differs about people shooting lions -- but if a couple of dogs got into a fight with a lion, the general reaction, even in places like California where lions are protected by law (much to the disgust of ranchers, from what I understand), would be, "Good doggy! Good doggy! What a hero!" -- not to punish the dog. Oh, the more fanatic tree huggers might throw a fit or two, but I've never heard of a dog being put down for fighting with a lion. Generally, the dog gets kudos from all the neighbors who have livestock and the owner gets bragging rights.

Leva

[D.J.]

I assumed it was a story where the dogs were as humans. Did I infer incorrectly?

[rtilryarms]

plead down to DUI catslaughter. Its not like it was a Seaturtle egg or something.

[Paint]

Thank you all. You have given me food for thought and some areas I will research. The law points are valid and what I was going for when I posted this.

It is a talking dog, but humans are unaware of it. It speaks through an area I call 'shared conciousness' but that is not the point here.
The attack took place on National Park land and animals are protected there, beyond that I need to look up. Mountain lions in Colorado attack, kill and eat people and dogs. This is documented. (Beast in the Garden) Pit bulls in Aurora, Colorado (around Denver) were rounded up and incarcerated without a violent history, while authorities decided whether or not to destroy them. To my knowlege those dogs were never returned to their owners. Now the public is deciding if it is illegal to own them in Aurora's city limits.
With the story of Zoe I am hoping to raise public awareness.
Zoe attacked the cat while the cat was on top of the rescue dog. I think it is feasable to think she might kill it. In Boulder a man nearly killed a cat by stabbing it in the eye when the cat attacked him on a hiking trail. The cat lived with one eye to attack man and dog again.
It is a huge arguement with 'tree huggers' pardon me, in Boulder about what to do with the cats.
As to who is responsible for the dog--boy I need to work on that. The case came about because a hot shot lawyer picked it up from the news stories and wanted to be in a high profile case.
So again thank you.
Paint

[ideagirl]

In most areas where people deal with lions on a regular basis, the dog would be considered a hero. Please research this story some more before you write it, because it sounds like you haven't looked into the laws or actual attitudes about lions in rural areas where they exist.

I agree with you in principle--i.e., I think that attitude is right, and I'm sure it exists in many rural areas--but there are places where people are kind of stupid about the whole "wild animal" concept. My mom lives in California in the more outdoorsy part of the Bay Area, and there are plenty of letters to the editor and local commentators who think lions are just So Amazing and we should be So Thankful To Have Them and we should Never Hurt Them because they are such a... a... PART OF NATURE'S SPLENDOR, and so on. Meanwhile, lions carry away people's pet dogs, cats... joggers!!... they don't seem to get the concept that, as splendid and majestic and so on as lions are, lions and people should not share the same space, due to the fact that lions are carnivorous predators that weigh more than most people...

[ideagirl]

Pit bulls in Aurora, Colorado (around Denver) were rounded up and incarcerated without a violent history, while authorities decided whether or not to destroy them. To my knowlege those dogs were never returned to their owners. Now the public is deciding if it is illegal to own them in Aurora's city limits

The pit bull thing--which has happened in a few places--is down to the fact that sometimes local authorities will pass a law that declares all pit bulls to be "dangerous" and illegal to own. If they don't do something like that, they have no legal basis for rounding them up or for preventing people from owning them. Local authorities may or may not have that authority--it's possible that the issue in Aurora is that authorities passed a law like that, and then someone sued and a court decided the authorities didn't have the power to make that law, only the people did, so it had to be voted on like a referendum. But in any event, there's no legal way to treat pit bulls differently from any other dog UNTIL and UNLESS local authorities pass a law about it (or an ordinance, a resolution, whatever--the exact term varies from one place to another, but it boils down to a law). However, one specific pit bull may get declared dangerous based on its own past behavior (i.e., not based on its breed). The point of declaring an animal "dangerous," whether the declaration is made about a specific animal or a whole breed, is that then it may be illegal to own the animal, and/or the owner may be subject to strict liability for the dog, meaning that the owner has to pay for any damage the dog does even if it's not the owner's fault, and even if the dog was defending itself or whatever.

[ideagirl]

Any suggestions?

Actually, yeah. I would suggest that you ask a lawyer in the area where this story is set what the legal issues and outcomes would be in the scenario you're describing. Ideally, you want a lawyer who has some experience with animal cases (people suing over dog bites, people getting fined for killing lions, whatever). The good news there is that lawyers who do that kind of work are not expensive, so even if you did have to pay for half an hour or an hour of his/her time, it wouldn't be much. To raise public awareness, and to write a plausible story, it helps to get the basic facts and incidents right... talking to a lawyer would save you a ton of time and prevent you from making any big mistakes in your story.

[Paint]

Thank you Ideagirl, we have someone here in town I could check with. You have been very helpful. :) Paint

[Leva]

It depends on where you live, but one thing to remember is that the animal activitists are called "activists" for a reason -- they're active. They make a lot of noise and it looks like there's more of them than there are.

Most people who have livestock & may shoot the occasional lion keep a very low profile, but there's a lot more folks in MOST rural areas who take a pragmatic approach to the lions. They're just not going to be noisy about it, because the animal activists have a tendency to be trouble for the rancher. Who wants to invite trouble?

Leva



I agree with you in principle--i.e., I think that attitude is right, and I'm sure it exists in many rural areas--but there are places where people are kind of stupid about the whole "wild animal" concept. My mom lives in California in the more outdoorsy part of the Bay Area, and there are plenty of letters to the editor and local commentators who think lions are just So Amazing and we should be So Thankful To Have Them and we should Never Hurt Them because they are such a... a... PART OF NATURE'S SPLENDOR, and so on. Meanwhile, lions carry away people's pet dogs, cats... joggers!!... they don't seem to get the concept that, as splendid and majestic and so on as lions are, lions and people should not share the same space, due to the fact that lions are carnivorous predators that weigh more than most people...

[icerose]

This actually recently happened in our neighborhood. A mountain lion had come out of the higher grounds in search of food, in my neighborhood. Our dog, Brutus (half Chow chow, half Akita) was out on his chain when the lion attacked. My dog got the best of the lion and the neighbor came and shot it. Even though the lion is an endangered species they won't hesitate to put it down when it endangers human life like that. And once predators establish a feeding zone they don't leave it unless forced and often come back anyway. The local police just gathered the body and sent it up to the museum so the death wouldn't be a total loss, but sometimes, what can you do?

Never even came up once the subject of fines or trouble due to the circumstances.

Just a thought for you to ponder.

Sara

[Kathie Freeman]

Acually I think you ned to find a new victim for your pit bull. The chances of a dog of any size being able to take down a healthy mountain lion are slim to zero. Th mountain lion has sharp claws and powerful jaws, and is far more agile than any dog. It could happen if the lion was old or sick but that would hardly incite an outcry.

Kathie

[spike]

If the pit bull had the element of surprise, he might win. Also, since the dog can talk (therefore reason) perhaps he had a plan.

Back to reality. I saw a pit bull drop a full grown horse.

[DaveKuzminski]

It wouldn't hurt to ask people on both sides of the question. That might give you some plausible background information to make the story more realistic. Just be sure to have your BS indicator on since there will be individuals who only care about their POV and not the facts.

[Leva]

I'm not surprised that a pit could drop a full grown horse -- I've seen one kicked by a horse that meant business hard enough that the pit bull went airborn and the pit was barely even dented! ;)

However, lions have an advantage that horses don't have, and that's extreme flexibility. Pit bulls fight by biting and ***holding on*** -- which puts them at a real disadavantage in a fight with a critter that has claws. The pit bull might be able to latch on to the lion's leg or throat, but the lion would promptly lash out with razor-sharp claws and slash the dog to ribbons. Plus, if you've ever tried sneaking up on a housecat ... lions are warier.

Biting and holding on works real well if you're trying to bring a prey animal down by the throat, or in a fight with another dog because a dog doesn't have the claws to disembowel its opponent ...

Leva



If the pit bull had the element of surprise, he might win. Also, since the dog can talk (therefore reason) perhaps he had a plan.

Back to reality. I saw a pit bull drop a full grown horse.

[spike]

I'm not surprised that a pit could drop a full grown horse -- I've seen one kicked by a horse that meant business hard enough that the pit bull went airborn and the pit was barely even dented! ;)

However, lions have an advantage that horses don't have, and that's extreme flexibility. Pit bulls fight by biting and ***holding on*** -- which puts them at a real disadavantage in a fight with a critter that has claws. The pit bull might be able to latch on to the lion's leg or throat, but the lion would promptly lash out with razor-sharp claws and slash the dog to ribbons. Plus, if you've ever tried sneaking up on a housecat ... lions are warier.

Biting and holding on works real well if you're trying to bring a prey animal down by the throat, or in a fight with another dog because a dog doesn't have the claws to disembowel its opponent ...

Leva

Agreed, but I still say that the if the pit bull had a plan, he could win. If he could break the lions neck with a first strike, it would work. Especially if this talking dog could read, and had knowledge of anatomy of lions.

[Paint]

Well Zoe cannot read. The cat was on the back of a rescue dog, a lab, occuppied with killing it. If Zoe had a plan it would be that she aimed for the windpipe. She got a hold of it first thing and was immediately able to crush it and drop the cat.

Don't you think a crushed windpipe would stop the cat from disembowling Zoe?
Let's see I need to talk to a ranger after I talk to a lawyer...

[Jamesaritchie]

Nothing the legal system does surprises me. A single pit bull killing a mountain lion amazes me. I've seen cornered mountain lions tear dogs to pieces they were far larger and tougher than pit bulls.


I think not giving it up, forcing everything to trial, appealing, and most important, a very good lawyer, is the best shot here.

[Leva]

Not before the cat killed the dog -- odds are, the pit's instincts would tell it to hold on and the cat would kick out and tear the dog to shreds in its dying throes.

Plus, getting hold of the lion's throat would be hard, because the lion would be hunched over the other dog. I doubt a pit bull could get her jaws all the way around a lion's neck anyway, nor would the pit have the strength to break a lion's neck.

I've seen a pit bull take a goat down by the throat, incidently. The pit bull meant business -- this was the pit that got kicked by the horse, in the same melee. Pit bull chased down the goat and grabbed it by the throat, cut off the air to the point where the goat was nearly unconscious. The horse, who purely hated dogs and considered the goat her baby -- she was an old broodmare who couldn't have babies of her own anymore -- nailed that pit bull WHILE it was holding the goat and launched it airborn.

Goat survived, with some major bruising and the perfect imprint of pit bull teeth on his neck on both sides. It took him awhile to regain full consciousness and get up -- a couple of hours. Ruined him for packing because he's now terrified of dogs. But he lived. (I honestly thought he was a goner when he didn't get up right away.) His windpipe wasn't crushed and his neck wasn't broken. That's not to say that the pit bull couldn't have done either -- but that it would be very difficult.

BTW, the pit bull belonged to my neighbor, and had never attacked anything before -- after that, he never touched another goat. After the horse kicked him, my own dog lit into him. He went home with his tail between his legs and never came back. I think he decided that he wasn't cut out to be a livestock killer after that!

Leva
Well Zoe cannot read. The cat was on the back of a rescue dog, a lab, occuppied with killing it. If Zoe had a plan it would be that she aimed for the windpipe. She got a hold of it first thing and was immediately able to crush it and drop the cat.

Don't you think a crushed windpipe would stop the cat from disembowling Zoe?
Let's see I need to talk to a ranger after I talk to a lawyer...

[Leva]

Oh, incidently, the goat mentioned was about six months old and about forty pounds.

Leva

[Jamesaritchie]

Well Zoe cannot read. The cat was on the back of a rescue dog, a lab, occuppied with killing it. If Zoe had a plan it would be that she aimed for the windpipe. She got a hold of it first thing and was immediately able to crush it and drop the cat.

Don't you think a crushed windpipe would stop the cat from disembowling Zoe?
Let's see I need to talk to a ranger after I talk to a lawyer...

A crushed windpipe would certainly kill a mountain lion, but if the pit bull tries to hold on, the cat will probably kill it befoe it dies. It takes just a second or two for a mountain lion to disembowel even a huge dog. It's those back claws that do the damage.

Of course, it does dpend on the size of the mountain lion. I don't know what the record is, something over 270 pounds, I think, and an adult, male mountain lion is often around the 200-220 pound mark, and it's darned near all muscle, fang, and claw.

I do believe I'd make this mountain lion female. They very seldom get over 140, and believe me, that's more than any single dog can handle without a lot of luck.

One on one, I don't think I've ever seen a mountain lion pin a dog down. They tend to grab the dog by the neck, roll over, and put those hiuge back claws to work. They want the dog to be on top because if it is, the cat has all the advantage. They even entice the dog in, then roll so the dog lands on top. Cats back off in order to get underneath, and dogs charge in to use their jaws. This does not bode well for the dog. The dog's style of fighting and the cat's style of fighting are exactly the opposite, and just do not match up well for the dog. The dog wants to charge in, wants to be on top, and that's exactly where the cat wins the battle. Not even a wolf will tackle a mountain lion solo, if given a choice. . .though the mountain lion usually won't press the issue.

But have you ever seen a full grown male mountain lion up close? They're a whole God Almighty bigger than the look on TV. Desert lions are a good deal smaller than some in other regions, but they're all big and mean and wicked in a fight. Something well over two hundred pounds, up to nine feet long, and armed with four sets of claws and a wicked set of teeth is just not easy to kill in a fair fight.

It usually takes a pack of dogs to really give a mountain lion problems, and if the cat gets cornered and can't be treed, even a pack of dogs can be in serious trouble if a hunter isn't pretty close behind them.

So, yeah, I'd definitely make the lion a medium size female, 90-100 pounds, else the lion might be on trial for having too much fun with the pit bull.

[Paint]

WhooHoo! I got the rest of the scene while I was reading Jamesarichie's post! Thank you! Zoe gets off (and her owners) because the cat was a public nuisance or menace. This is how it works--and some of the leagalities may be weak but believable in my Rocky Mountain area.

The cat is small, weak and sickly. She has become accustomed to stalking tourists and pets in the park because it is easy. Earlier in the story she harrassed one of the young female characters. I can bring this into the case.
Your points, James, on cat and dog fighting were right on. I know from seeing my own domestic cats go at it. Spring on back, power to the pounce, flip. They love that belly dig thing. So I have to write that scene carefully.
Yes I have seen a mountain lion up here, a young male about a year old crossed the road in front of the car on a canyon road. He was rangy looking. Stopped and did the tail switch thing, unafraid of the car. Awesome presence and not even full grown.
There is a true story here with a woman who worked with me. Upon discovering she was being stalked walked backwards to her car which was luckily close by. Never made eye contact. She was very lucky. I put that in the story with the scene about the young woman and the earlier contact with the cat.
I was so stalled on this!

[Leva]

For what it's worth, it's a myth that sick lions are the people and livestock killers. That's usually a large young male.

Also, just for reference, if you ever encounter a lion in the wild -- the appropriate response is to LOOK at it, wave your arms, scream, throw things, pick up a big stick and wave it around, etc. Be aggressive as hell. Lions are opportunists and they DON'T want to get hurt taking down prey.

Most folks don't see lions, though -- you're lucky to have seen that one.

Leva