Short Narrative as Opposed to Novel

Jaoman · Feb 14, 2006

I've never been any good at short stories. I think it's because I've read very few in my time. I'm more attracted to long, drawn out epics and imagine likewise.

It is, therefore, entirely consistent with my disposition that I should set myself to write one. What I notice, however, is that my narrative refuses to comply to the format. I keep wanting to go on tangents, or be more logical about the events, or more indirect about getting into the story. This, I suspect, is a result of my epic background.

So, I wonder, what is the distinction between the way things happen in a short story, or the way the narrative goes, and longer works?

pdr · Feb 14, 2006

Try this.

Short stories should KISS.
Keep
It
Short
and
Simple.

Usually you are dealing with one important moment in someone's life. No sidetracks, no extra characters or subplots. Just what matters to your character. Short stories are very direct.

Jaoman · Feb 14, 2006

I thought KISS was "Keep It Simple Stupid".

pdr · Feb 14, 2006

Nope!

I thought KISS was "Keep It Simple Stupid".

Well, I'm polite, I don't see the need to call someone stupid when they're asking a reasonable question.

Pike · Feb 14, 2006

I thought it was Knights In Satan's Service. Oh wait, that was the bad rap the band got back in the 70's.

A good way at looking at a short story is to visualize a single scene that could be a part of a novel. That's how I started out then advanced into novels. A tight, encapsilated scene tells one small story that can wander if you limit it to the scene at hand.

Also look back to old shows like the Twilight Zone. That was a prime example of short fiction. Characters full of life, thrusted onto the screen then turned inside out within minutes.

These are just some of my obscure ways of looking at writing.

Maryn · Feb 15, 2006

Actually, in addition to Twilight Zone, many (maybe even most) movies are fairly good examples of short stories--they contain right about the same amount of plot and character development as a longish short story, say 5,000 - 8,000 words. (That's part of the reason it's so hard to adapt books for the screen--a lot has to be left out.)

In a movie, you don't generally have time to get into a character's past or opinions--unless they influence behavior in the present plot.

Maryn, hoping that helped a little tiny bit

Pike · Feb 15, 2006

Bingo! I can't recall where I read that recently but a screenplay is exactly that. Even though a film is 90+ minutes, it is just a short piece of fiction that hops all over the damned place.

writeroffthelake · Feb 17, 2006

writing using scenes

We all write and think differently, but if I tried to think of writing a short story as writing a scene from a novel, I fear I would forget that my story needs a beginning, middle, and end.

While scenes also need a beginning, middle, and end, the "end" in a scene (except for the last scene) must have a decision or action that will link into the next scene.

If thinking of a short story as a scene from a novel works for you, great, but I'd just like to remind everyone that, unlike a scene, a story must stand on its own and not be just a chunk of a greater whole.

Pike · Feb 17, 2006

I appreciate the clarification but it was just a helpful hint. Of course a short piece requires a B, M, and E but not all short pieces finish with a definitive end. I happen to like finishing with an open ending, leaving the reader wondering or creating their own interpretation of what comes next.

And if you think my advice is off kilter, read the opening scene of The Accidental Tourist. It, unto itself, works as a complete short story and as the buiding block of a complex novel.

writeroffthelake · Feb 19, 2006

opened ended fiction

There's many different types of short stories, open-ended being just one of them. As long as the writer is aware of what s/he's writing and intentionally plans to write an open-ened story, rather than a writer who just suddenly stops his/er fiction because s/he doesn't have an ending, then the open-ended short story often works.

It's been awhile since I read The Accidental Tourist, but it's in my personal library and I will reread the first chapter - as soon as I'm able to find it among my 5000+ still unpacked books - keeping in mind the comments made by the above poster.

Any short stories you can recommend that you enjoy with the open-ended theme in mind? It's been a long time since I've written an open-ended story and your post has reminded that in reading, as well as in life, going outside my personal box is something I need to do more of.

Jamesaritchie · Feb 20, 2006

KISS

Jaoman said:
I thought KISS was "Keep It Simple Stupid".

And sometime sit means "Keep it super simple."

But I don't think KISS is really a very good rule for any sort of writing, including short stories.

Short stories can be, and often should be, every bit as complicated as a novel, and often more so.

Short stories are usually kept short by the number of characters, the number, and the time span covered.

Each short story is different, each has its own demands. The important word in "short story" is "story," not "short."

Ms.Write · Feb 21, 2006

I agree with KISS as defined by pdr - keep it short and simple. Short stories cannot deal with subplots and more than a limited number of characters. They can be sophisticated but not complex in the way a novel is.

The important thing to remember is - there must be something the main character wants, and a problem to his or her achieving it. If the main character doesn't care about what is going on, why should the reader? Everything else in the story should reflect the main theme.

pdr · Feb 21, 2006

Why, thank you Ms Write.

For posting what I was going to post. James is quite correct in that short stories can and should be complex but Jaoman was struggling to come to short stories from novel writing. Therefore KISS is a helpful concept to one used to sub-plots and many characters.

Mike Coombes · Feb 22, 2006

Ms.Write said:
The important thing to remember is - there must be something the main character wants, and a problem to his or her achieving it.

I have to disagree with the old conflict/resolution mantra. It is one way to write short fiction, not the only way. Read De Maupassant, or Joyce's Dubliners. For the most part their stories are just about people doing stuff. Or sometimes not doing stuff. And they work beautifully.

writeroffthelake · Feb 22, 2006

Simple/complex

Such great posts here!

There's as many different kinds of stories as there are readers, but most characters do have a want, even if you don't readily see it. If the character is "just doing stuff", why is the character doing the stuff? If there's a reason, that can be a want.

Fiction needs a reason for the character to exist and for the reader to care enough to want to read about the character in action.

If there isn't any want, what is the reason for the fiction? Does the character change in doing his stuff? Or is the purpose of the story to show that the character can't change? That could still be a purpose, and then opens up other questions: Does the character want to change and can't? Not want to change and fears s/he will? Does the reader want the character to change and the character doesn't want to change? What about other characters, do they want the character to change? Would change be for the better or worse for the character...for other characters?

Fiction, like a house, needs a structure. The writer needs to know what he's building so that if he choses to have his characters "just doing stuff" he knows why.

Also, stories like that are harder to write and usually don't come off well when done by writers without a lot of experience.

But, of course, every writer has to write what he wants to write...maybe that's the most important want of all.

Or maybe the most important want of all is that just because the writer writes what he wants doesn't mean readers want to read it, so then the writer needs to ask whether he wants to write to be read, or just wants to write what he wants to write, whether it's read or not.

writeroffthelake · Feb 22, 2006

I must disagree with what another poster said about the stories of Guy de Maupasant. The stories by him that come readily to my mind, DO have character wants and resolutions.

Also, times change as to what readers like. Both de Maupasant and Joyce are writers of a different era, a different readership.
I LOVE the description in Dickens, but if he were a new writer starting out today he'd probably have a hard time finding a publisher. Again, it comes down to the writer's want: is your want to write what is most likely to be published, bought and read, or to write what you most like writing? If you're computer keyboard is clicking to a different beat, you need to understand that if publishing for pay is your goal, readers have specific wants that their fiction has to meet or they won't want to read you...and editors know not to buy you.

I spent years writing stories that didn't really do anything for me simply because I knew they'd be a quick sell. Then I burned out; writing became a chore and everytime I'd publish another story my thoughts were often: "I can't believe they're paying me for this crap." Now I write what I want to write, and seldom even attempt to publish. While the two overlap, sometimes they do not, and it's the editors who suffer when the writer confuses the two.

Know where you're going, with your writing and your life, then you'll know what road to travel on...now if I could just figure out how to do that in my own life....

PenDragon · Feb 26, 2006

Here is an article on the subject by one of my favourite short story writers....

What IS a Short story?

Ms.Write · Feb 26, 2006

PenDragon,

Thanks for the article (What IS a Short Story?) - it's excellent.

I found it inspiring that we can have such an effect on the reader with a short story. For me character change is important, and I agree with the need to write with precision and "a poet's feel for language" with the short form. Every sentence, every word takes on greater importance; it must all fit as part of the whole.

pdr · Feb 26, 2006

Thank you!

Nice to read Alex's comments. He used to run ( may still but I'm out of touch) a boot camp for writers. Very fierce but highly successful. Short stories are not little novels and, fo rme, he defines their difference well.

Mike Coombes · Feb 26, 2006

writeroffthelake said:
Also, times change as to what readers like. Both de Maupasant and Joyce are writers of a different era, a different readership.

They are also both still very relevant, and their styles still very modern.

BTW what's with the huge text? We're not deaf.

Mike Coombes · Feb 27, 2006

writeroffthelake said:
I must disagree with what another poster said about the stories of Guy de Maupasant. The stories by him that come readily to my mind, DO have character wants and resolutions.[/QUOTE]

This is true, although the ones that come most swiftly to my mind are more about characters themselves than their wants and resolutions.

And even where there are the w&r, such as in Boule de Suiffe, the conflict/resolution is there not as the central theme of the story, but as a catalyst to expose the true mature of the characters aboard the carriage.

PenDragon · Feb 27, 2006

Hey Ms. Write and pdr, glad you liked the article. For anyone interested in short story writing there are more of his articles in the Writers Write archives.

pdr, Alex is still running Boot Camp I drop in now and again.

Ms.Write · Feb 27, 2006

PenDragon - thanks for referring us to Writers Write Archives for more articles by Alex Keegan. A wealth of articles on short story writing! I already printed out at least ten, to read at my leisure.

Short Narrative as Opposed to Novel

Jaoman

pdr

Jaoman

pdr

Pike

Chivalry ain't dead

Maryn

I Tried

Pike

Chivalry ain't dead

writeroffthelake

Pike

Chivalry ain't dead

writeroffthelake

Jamesaritchie

Ms.Write

pdr

Mike Coombes

Guru

writeroffthelake

writeroffthelake

PenDragon

Dragon with a Pen

Ms.Write

pdr

Mike Coombes

Guru

Mike Coombes

Guru

PenDragon

Dragon with a Pen

Ms.Write