How much sex & romance do you like in a fantasy tale?

bylinebree · Feb 12, 2006

I like more than I usually see in the genre; too many battles and politics bore me, personally. What do you guys/gals prefer or have enjoyed in your favorite stories? What balance between the two would you like to see?

My two-novel fantasy series (thus far only two...) has a good amount of romance, with a little alluded-to or non-graphic sex. The main plot involves the MC's love-life and spiritual journey, and the subplot involves more action in defeating the enemy who wants to destroy his family's dynastic rule.

Look forward to seeing your opinions!

dante-x · Feb 12, 2006

What ever amount seems "natural", that is not held back to appease the masses when it should be there and not tossed in for a "cheap thrill" that distracts, takes away from the story or attempts to cover up for the lack of one.

DaveKuzminski · Feb 12, 2006

Also, don't be afraid to have different situations. In a current work, I have one character who isn't ready to marry, but she likes to fool around. Another had trouble accepting love on the rebound after losing his wife in a battle. Still another dropped one boyfriend to marry someone new because she was seeking security rather than love only to later kill her husband when she saw her security slipping away due to circumstances caused by a bad character. Having lost everything else, she took her life.

So, what I'm saying is make it interesting. It's not just boy meets girl, one of them is abducted and rescued, then they get married and live happily together.

veinglory · Feb 12, 2006

I like all combinations from category romance with fantasy elements right through to non-romance fantasy. I love that fantasy has always included sex when required unlike many genres that just won't touch it.

badducky · Feb 12, 2006

Depends. I have the same attitude toward sex/romance as I do to violence.

A little goes a long way. Going to great lengths in anything so potentially titilating is a fast way to get me to stop reading anything.

However, in cases like Michael Ondaatje's wonderful little novels, I have never felt overwhelmed by the sexuality, the romance, nor the violence. In short, he only uses what is necessary, and ensures that each instance is vital to the larger narrative on every level.

If, however, you are going to slaughter 1000 orcs, or ravish 1000 vixens, or detail 1000 dates... Well, just remember that in this area of the psyche, a little bit goes a long way.

Sage · Feb 12, 2006

I like some romance in my stories (though I don't require it), & a little sex is okay too, but I don't want anything too graphic.

My WIPs have some romance (& one has non-graphic sex), but the strongest relationship in either of them is actually a brother & sister.

Captain_Campion · Feb 12, 2006

It does have to serve a purpose. Sexual attitudes can tell us something about a character's personality. Sometimes it may serve as the best way to let out subtle hints at character flaws or dangerous/beneficial character elements. The type of person that attracts the character also says a lot.

Graphic depications of sexual activities should be handled with care, of course. They can serve a purpose and, sometimes, a great sex scene is good flavoring to a story. But the details and specifics don't need to go too far to wander into the 'pornographic' arena, and that can distract or even derail an otherwise interesting tale.

A great example of this would be Stephen King's 'It'. A great story...until one scene ruins the entire read. If you've read this story, then you know exactly what I'm talking about. Yech. Wrong on so many levels.

Pthom · Feb 13, 2006

Captain_Campion said:
... Sexual attitudes can tell us something about a character's personality. ...

Or of a society. In one story I'm working on, people can only reproduce in vitro...sex is possible but not conception. It also happens that the society is small (500,000) and has been isolated for a millenium. They wear little clothing; their environment is quite warm (they live in an enclosed habitat structure) and they have had no raw materials to manufacture new clothing. Once your shirt is worn out, you steal someone else's...until they're all worn out and then...society accepts nakedness.

Nowl, WE all know what happens when folks begin to go about naked on OUR society. The question I am faced with answering is how my society handles the "situation." The story doesn't deal with the "situation" per se--but because my characters live in it, I can't ignore it's impact on them.

How would any of you write about such a situation? If nudity (or partial nudity) is so commonplace and therefore an accepted state of being, would there be any taboos on overt sexual activity? I know there are primative societies on Earth today who go about their daily activities with mostly no clothing on. But I don't know how they deal with sex.

My society is not primative--it's just stagnant. Any ideas?

Rambling · Feb 13, 2006

Pthom said:
How would any of you write about such a situation? If nudity (or partial nudity) is so commonplace and therefore an accepted state of being, would there be any taboos on overt sexual activity?

I'd imagine it would become very context dependent. Even in our culture, nudity isn't always sexual (public bathrooms, sauna's, hospital rooms, etc.). Like the bad translation of a possibly Japanese saying: "nudity is often seen but never looked at".

Captain_Campion · Feb 13, 2006

Pthom said:
How would any of you write about such a situation? If nudity (or partial nudity) is so commonplace and therefore an accepted state of being, would there be any taboos on overt sexual activity? I know there are primative societies on Earth today who go about their daily activities with mostly no clothing on. But I don't know how they deal with sex.

My society is not primative--it's just stagnant. Any ideas?

Sounds like you've got a lot of questions to answer, in what also sounds to be a rather interesting situation. I guess my questions would be, has there been any arificial effect on the sex drive? If people can no longer reproduce through sex, has the sex drive been dulled? That, I guess, would depend on how long they've been in this predicament or any outside factors.

The lack of cloths? It might make a society MORE obsessed with physical fitness or less as people just don't care. Body paints, tattoos, posture, might all take the place of sexually revealing clothes (i.e. since they're naked all the time, there would be other ways to titilate, again if the sex drive is still in full throttle).

Now, you say the society is stagnant, what if sex became as routine as walking down the street? In other words, two people just get busy any time they want, trying to find some satisfaction but with no titilation and no purpose (i.e. no reproduction) people could be very frustrated, and hence dive into frequency or kinkiness (do some research on the actions of sexual addicts, that might give you some ideas; or the alternative, people who have lost their sexual drive).

Some great advice I received a few years ago was that a writer can't be afraid to write about something. If sex is something that should be addressed by your characters/story then take it head on. You have a situation where in you can't ignore sex and sexual attitudes. Good luck, what you're writing could be a lot of fun. Then again, if they've been isolated for that long and don't know pride, humility or sexual titilation, then you're best bet is probably researching those cultures here on Earth that no of no other type of life.

Hmmm...interesting...

DaveKuzminski · Feb 13, 2006

Actually, people are sexier looking wearing clothes. Those create a mystique about people while nudity exposes everything. In fact, most nudists do not get all hot and bothered viewing other nude individuals. They don't suddenly have groups orgies or affairs, either. That's not to say that some exceptions occur, but the norm is opposite of what many uninformed, non-nudist people might believe.

Takvah · Feb 13, 2006

Have you ever been to a nudist colony? Rare is the occassion where somebody "hot" is actually nude. If you saw the physiques of some of these people, you wouldn't get excited either. *snickers*

As for the question of romance/sexual content in a book... I think it is a very dicey thing to judge. I think that George R. R. Martin is often almost perverse. If it isn't incest, it's raw dog dwarf sex. He also uses the basest terms for sexual organs, functions, which can become tiresome. It doesn't keep me from reading but it does wear on me after a while. How many times do we have to read about Tyrion busting a nut? I'm sorry, I don't know how else to put it. I swear, Tyrion must be Martin's alter ego.

I think that you should write what you are comfortable with and then get feedback from people that you trust. If a few of them tell you it is over the top, tone it down... if they say it's too tame, add a pinch of spice.

Good luck!

DaveKuzminski · Feb 13, 2006

Takvah said:
Have you ever been to a nudist colony? Rare is the occassion where somebody "hot" is actually nude. If you saw the physiques of some of these people, you wouldn't get excited either. *snickers*

Yes. Wrong. Physiques has little to do with it.

ChaosTitan · Feb 13, 2006

Another question that I'd like to ask about the society: how does marriage factor into things? Are there still monogamous couples who take their vows and spend their lives together? Are there multiple partners? Do people even marry, or do they just have sex with random people to scratch an itch?

Is the Invitro done between two life partners? Or does a woman have the choice to go into a clinic, select a donor, and have a baby?

I'm intrigued by this story now....

Pthom · Feb 13, 2006

In my story, there is no marriage as an institution. In fact, there are no interpersonal contracts of any kind. (I'm thinking that is more of an oversight on my part than intentional...but it works.) The situation of in vitro reproduction is a matter of back story, and by the time the events of my novel(s) take place such thing is 'normal.' But people do make lasting friendships, partner up, etc...and have romantic feelings toward one another. My supposition is that the act of sexual intercourse is just as pleasurable as it is to us; it just doesn't produce offspring. A couple may apply to the authorities (Gentek) for permission to 'gen-combine'...in other words, to supply gametes for in vitro reproduction. Simplistically, the resulting zygotes are grown in a lab and the newborn babies are raised by menial workers in a 'creche'. It is rare for the parents to know their offspring, and even more rare for a child to know who his/her parents are. But it happens, and that makes for some interesting situations. Because the population is fixed, there is always danger of genetic deterioration, and that too, is a theme of the story. After 1000 years in isolation, things are in a pretty sad state of affairs. But the setup is designed to last only 1000 years and then... well, you'll have to read the story.

fallenangelwriter · Feb 13, 2006

question: if they don't raise or interact with the children, what's the point of letting people choose to combine genes at all? why not just have the people running the gene banks cook up whatever they feel is appropriate for the next generation.

Sage · Feb 13, 2006

Pthom said:
...society accepts nakedness.

Nowl, WE all know what happens when folks begin to go about naked on OUR society. The question I am faced with answering is how my society handles the "situation." The story doesn't deal with the "situation" per se--but because my characters live in it, I can't ignore it's impact on them.

How would any of you write about such a situation? If nudity (or partial nudity) is so commonplace and therefore an accepted state of being, would there be any taboos on overt sexual activity? I know there are primative societies on Earth today who go about their daily activities with mostly no clothing on. But I don't know how they deal with sex.

Something I thought was interesting when I read one of the Xanth novels was that nudity was not a taboo, but seeing a woman in her underwear was. Girls could be naked in front of a guy & nobody would think anything of it (or at least the guy would be no more lustful than when she was fully clothed), but if he saw her panties, it was scandalous.

It's just the way the society is set up. The norm for that society won't make them act any different than we act around the norm in our society. I think the only suggested difference I'd make would be the focus on wearing the right clothing would be changed to making your body look good - which is still something focused on today anyway.

Keep in mind that in your society, it is the way people are use to it being. It might come up every once in a while, but they're not all going to be focused on other people's lack of clothing. They'll still go on with their everyday life as if nothing was different, 'cuz it's not.

Now, perhaps the people in your world are more focused on sex for some reason or another (like the fact that there's no possibility of pregnancy). I don't think the lack of clothing would be a cause of that, though possibly it'd be an effect. If you do decide to go that route, there's nothing wrong with that.

Pthom · Feb 13, 2006

fallenangelwriter said:
question: if they don't raise or interact with the children, what's the point of letting people choose to combine genes at all? why not just have the people running the gene banks cook up whatever they feel is appropriate for the next generation.

Because they don't have 'gene banks.' They manipulate gametes to create new humans...but they need real gametes from real humans.

Pthom · Feb 13, 2006

Sage said:
Now, perhaps the people in your world are more focused on sex for some reason or another (like the fact that there's no possibility of pregnancy). I don't think the lack of clothing would be a cause of that, though possibly it'd be an effect. If you do decide to go that route, there's nothing wrong with that.

I don't think there is either...but it's amazing the reactions I get when I try describing an population of over half a million who are for the most part naked.

DaveKuzminski · Feb 14, 2006

Keep in mind that some of us are facing the same problems. Occasionally, I solve some of those by remembering old documentaries and doing some research on the web. For instance, you can use other cultures for ideas on how your fictional culture might operate. One way to do that is to take two or more and creatively mix them.

Only yesterday, the last parts of a cultural puzzle came to me even though I'd already set the culture in motion long ago. It was simply that I didn't understand fully why some of the culture behaved in the way it did. However, it became clear when the characters found themselves in a large port for repairs and visited an inn unlike those that one character had been in before. One of the officers came from an even larger port city on the ocean, so he provided an explanation to another whose home had been a small lake port. Viewed from a logical standpoint, the culture made total sense and could be reasonably believed to be real.

bylinebree · Feb 14, 2006

This thread has evolved into just "how do you handle sex & romance & reproduction..." which is fine; it's interesting to see you guys' ideas.

Pthom, the science of the reproduction in your idea is a bit confusing to me, but probably clear to you. So how is it that people can produce viable gametes, but can't originate a pregnancy naturally? Do they have birth control? If they have a defect of some kind, then wouldn't their gametes be affected/sterile? Maybe I thinking too scientifically, or too much like our reality. But thinking this out as background is important to making the world you create internally consistent with its own scientific laws.

Some of your ideas remind of the movie Aeon Flux and others where reproduction is carefully controlled in an isolated society of survivors; there's a classic SF book like this, too -- but can't think of the title right now, where children are produced in a common nursery and don't know their parents. Make sure your take on this very unique, OK?

As far the nudity goes, it seems to me, like Dave, that it would be "sexier" to still have a piece of clothing in use. Maybe clothing is like a status or power marker to this culture. But if nearly everyone is nude, then the ones who still have some clothing would have the attention directed towards them as "different." A glut of nudity, like having dessert at every meal, makes it non-special anymore. And non-erotic, too.

It would be sad to see sex just become something like shaking hands, it is meant to be something special and bonding. But, Pthom, if you handle it right, it might work in that society even though some (like me) might not relate to it well.

BTW, I'm not a nudist. I do admire the human form, though. It's art.

bree

Sage · Feb 14, 2006

The sex is everywhere & no worry of pregnancy thing reminds me of Brave New World.

Pthom · Feb 14, 2006

Bree, thanks for your comments!

bylinebree said:
Pthom, the science of the reproduction in your idea is a bit confusing to me, but probably clear to you.

Oh, not necessarily.

The issue of reproduction is backdrop to the story proper.

So how is it that people can produce viable gametes, but can't originate a pregnancy naturally? Do they have birth control? If they have a defect of some kind, then wouldn't their gametes be affected/sterile? Maybe I thinking too scientifically, or too much like our reality. But thinking this out as background is important to making the world you create internally consistent with its own scientific laws.

You're absolutely correct. That's why I posed the problem; it is an issue that needs to be understood by me, at least.

Some of your ideas remind of the movie Aeon Flux and others where reproduction is carefully controlled in an isolated society of survivors; there's a classic SF book like this, too -- but can't think of the title right now, where children are produced in a common nursery and don't know their parents. Make sure your take on this very unique, OK?

Haven't seen Aeon Flux but have read other SF stories where there are similar elements. If the story I want to tell was about reproduction, I probably wouldn't tell it.

As far the nudity goes, it seems to me, like Dave, that it would be "sexier" to still have a piece of clothing in use. Maybe clothing is like a status or power marker to this culture. But if nearly everyone is nude, then the ones who still have some clothing would have the attention directed towards them as "different." A glut of nudity, like having dessert at every meal, makes it non-special anymore. And non-erotic, too.

Yep. However, I said that cloth for making clothing was scarce, not unavailable. It is a prime commodity and as you suggest, only those with power or authority own any clothing. Those who need clothing for protection, as machine operators, etc., are given uniforms, coveralls, etc, which are carefully monitored.

It would be sad to see sex just become something like shaking hands, it is meant to be something special and bonding. But, Pthom, if you handle it right, it might work in that society even though some (like me) might not relate to it well.

In my story, sex isn't in any way just a handshake. Rather, it is, like clothing something special that individuals discover is possible. I wrote a tentative scene where, at a community celebration, people are overheard bragging about their "conquests" in such a way that (I hope) is obvious to the reader they're bragging. A common theme in all of humanity, eh?

BTW, I'm not a nudist. I do admire the human form, though. It's art.

I am, often, and you're right. To paraphrase Heinlein: TANSTAAUB!

(There ain't no such thing as an ugly body.)

ChaosTitan · Feb 14, 2006

Sage said:
The sex is everywhere & no worry of pregnancy thing reminds me of Brave New World.

Oh, Sage. The first time I read this post, I confused Brave New World with the recently released film The New World. I started thinking, "Damn, Terence Malick changed the whole Pocahontas/John Smith story more drastically than I thought!" :roll:

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