HP references: tacky or trendy?

MarkN · Feb 10, 2006

Here's the background: I'm writing a juvenile fantasy novel set in modern times. Cell phones, iPods, etc. No magic--except due to circumstances which I won't go into here, one young boy is exposed to "otherworldly influences" which cause him to begin to develop magical powers. He also acquires a magical mentor who tries to explain to him what's going on.

The question: when I write, or at least for this novel, I am using a style I quaintly refer to as "diarrhea of the muse"--I just let it flow however it comes out (

). So I'm writing the scene where the mentor is telling the boy he can do magic, and the boy blurts out, "You mean like Harry Potter?"

What do you all think? Is it natural for modern day kids, faced with the prospect of actually doing real magic, to compare themselves to HP, or is that shallow, tacky "me-too-ism"? There are several other such references in the text as it stands now, and I'm leaving them in for the rough draft, but my gut feel is that none of them will survive the first revision.

("Diarrhea of the muse"? Sheesh, I bet you guys can't wait to see the finished manuscript.

)

Christine N. · Feb 10, 2006

Well, I wouldn't call it tacky, what I would call it is dating yourself. Tying yourself to other works (other than copyright issues that may arise, I don't know about all that) ties the book to them forever. Not that I think kids twenty years from now will have forgotten HP, but that's JMO. You've tied yourself to another work, not your own.

MarkN · Feb 10, 2006

Good point. That's always the flip side of "trendy," isn't it.

Thanks.

roach · Feb 10, 2006

I think it might be natural for a kid in today's society to make the comparison, but I agree with Christine.

Perhaps pick another kind of wizard? Merlin? Although that might be a bit of specialized knowledge that your character might not have. (Growing up I thought everyone knew about greek myths, Arthurian myths and the like. Boy was I mistaken!)

katiemac · Feb 10, 2006

When kids these days think of fantasy and magic, they're going to think of Harry Potter -- that part is true. However, you're probably damaging yourself by blatantly making that comparison in the book. Put yourself as far from comparisons as possible, because your readers are already going to have Harry Potter in their heads when they pick up your book. Let yourself stand alone.

DamaNegra · Feb 10, 2006

Well, Merlin is a classic. Almos everyone knows about Merlin or at least has a faint idea of who he is. You could use him instead of Harry Potter. It's trendy and all but as others have said before, you don't want to tie your novel to Harry Potter.

batgirl · Feb 10, 2006

Just to play devil's advocate, there's also the question whether, in this our world for now and the next little while, it's even possible a kid would not think of Harry Potter in those circs?
I beta-read for a friend, and some years ago she had a story with an alien who was stranded on Earth, trying to get back home, and some humans who discovered it. It seemed to me that there was no way someone wouldn't at least mutter 'Great, ET phone home ...' unless it was set in an alternate world where Stephen Spielberg didn't make films.
Is HP a cultural phenomenon on the same level as ET? I'd say yes. And hey, when you sell it, maybe they'll want you to change that one ref, but it makes a dandy placeholder until then.
-Barbara

MarkN · Feb 10, 2006

Actually, I'd pretty much decided to edit it out in the rewrite, but that devil's advocate argument is why I thought I'd pose the question. Well, that plus I need to work through a certain superstitious fear of talking about my novel in public. ("Oh no, somebody will steal my idea!") But anyway, this is all helpful, thanks everyone.

Sage · Feb 10, 2006

I don't know. I kinda like it when characters make cute references like that. One of my favorite shows, Buffy (in case you didn't know), did a lot of pop culture references, including a couple of Harry Potter references. I'm sure there were ones that I didn't get, but it's not like it detracted from my viewing experience, & maybe I learned something about a movie from it (or totally ignored it <shrugs>). If someone doesn't understand it (in the future), & it bothers them, they'll look it up (& maybe end up reading HP after done w/ your novel). Or they'll briefly wonder about the reference, but move on because it's obvious you're talking about a teen wizard from the time that you wrote the book.

Just my opinion, I am by no means an expert on writing.

Christine N. · Feb 11, 2006

Or you could just say something like "What, you mean like those kids in books?" Gives the same effect, without the specificity of HP.

Ok, I'll admit I've got a similar thing in my WIP (Of course this is a first draft, I may take it out).. BUT... the character who says it has just met a fairy and says "You mean like Tinkerbell?" Ok, so it sounds like exactly the same thing, right? But Tink has kind of already been around for a century or so. She's pretty much ingrained in our society.. my three year old already knows who she is. Not that HP isn't but I would call it a recent phenomenon by comparison.

James D. Macdonald · Feb 11, 2006

Christine N. said:
Or you could just say something like "What, you mean like those kids in books?" Gives the same effect, without the specificity of HP.

Always dangerous.

For example: In a science fiction novel, having one character says to another "That sounds like something out of a science fiction novel!" risks having the reader say "That's because it is, bucko!" and toss the book against the far wall.

"Those kids in books" also requires that reader do some work, to pause for a moment to think, "kids in books. ... hmm ... books, kids, which kids? those? yeah, I suppose they'll do ..." before continuing with your story. In that regard "Harry Potter is far superior."

But that's all second-draft territory. For right now, while getting a first draft done, it's perfectly okay to use the phrase.

Laurie · Feb 11, 2006

Sure it invites comparison, but if a kid is doing magic in a novel, you're already being compared in the reader's mind to HP.

My kids would respond - like HP? And would ask -who the heck is Merlin? They do know who Gandalf is.

dragonjax · Feb 11, 2006

Personally, I think that Harry Potter is here to stay. But that's besides the point. For now...just write. As Jim said, first drafts are all about getting it down. Second drafts are for making those first drafts workable.

Have fun!

Bibbity bobbity boo...

loquax · Feb 11, 2006

I think tacky. By mentioning a fantasy novel within your novel, it's like you're trying too hard to say "hey, this is real!", when you shouldn't be, because it's not. For me, this will result in the same thing Jim described - throwing the book against a wall. I don't want to read about a spy who grew up reading Fleming novels. I want to read about a spy who exists right along side James Bond in "fiction land".

ChaosTitan · Feb 11, 2006

James D. Macdonald said:
For example: In a science fiction novel, having one character says to another "That sounds like something out of a science fiction novel!" risks having the reader say "That's because it is, bucko!" and toss the book against the far wall.

Wash: Psychic, though? That sounds like something out of science fiction.
Zoe: You live on a space ship, dear.
Wash: So?

Sorry, I couldn't help it. :tongue

Yeshanu · Feb 11, 2006

It's true that this question is more a second-draft kind of question, but I'd think twice before I edited it out, because it would be a perfectly natural thing for a kid in today's world to say. You're not writing the book for kids twenty years from now, you're writing it for kids today.

Yes, the future success of your book will possibly be tied to Harry Potter (if one sentence can really make that much of a difference), but there are worse books or phenomena to be tied to. How do we know that cell phones and ipods aren't a passing thing? How do we know anything about today's world is lasting? We don't, and if you worry too much about making your book an "enduring classic," you'll likely not have a book at all. (Experience talking here... :tongue

)

So write it, and leave Harry in. As far as copyright issues go, I don't think there are any. You can mention Harry Potter, or ipods, or McDonald's, or any other thing in your novel, as long as you don't defame them or infringe their copyright. Others will correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I don't think you have a problem.

Shadow_Ferret · Feb 11, 2006

To continue in this vein are we better served not referencing popular culture in our books because it will date the material? (That's assuming our works are still read in 20 or 30 years.) My own WIP references Black Sabbath, Dali, a Ray Harryhausen movie, and Carlos Castaneda to name a few.

Does the use of pop culture for descriptive purposes indicate a lazy writer? The Dali reference is used to describe some scenary. The rest come up in dialog.

Christine N. · Feb 11, 2006

James D. Macdonald said:
Always dangerous.

For example: In a science fiction novel, having one character says to another "That sounds like something out of a science fiction novel!" risks having the reader say "That's because it is, bucko!" and toss the book against the far wall.

"Those kids in books" also requires that reader do some work, to pause for a moment to think, "kids in books. ... hmm ... books, kids, which kids? those? yeah, I suppose they'll do ..." before continuing with your story. In that regard "Harry Potter is far superior."

But that's all second-draft territory. For right now, while getting a first draft done, it's perfectly okay to use the phrase.

Absolutely true, UJ as usual. I just threw it out there. On reflection, it does souund rather amateurish and cheesy.

Christine N. · Feb 11, 2006

Laurie said:
Sure it invites comparison, but if a kid is doing magic in a novel, you're already being compared in the reader's mind to HP.

My kids would respond - like HP? And would ask -who the heck is Merlin? They do know who Gandalf is.

Why the comparison at all? Kids aren't stupid, and sometimes I think pointing out the obvious is almost like talking down to them. Kid does magic in a novel, don't compare it to anything, let the reader make their own comparison. Saying something like "Like Harry Potter?" almost forces me to roll my eyes. How many children will do the same?

Going back to my fairy reference, I only used it to distinguish my fairy from other kinds of fairies. In some books, fairies are full-grown adult size, in some more like the size of a child. My character is making a comparision based on what she sees. I think kids can come up with a hundred different comparisons with kids who do magic. Nathaniel in The Bartimaeus Trilogy, or Septimus Heap, etc.. but they're all kids.

I say let the reader decide for themselves.

loquax · Feb 11, 2006

Shadow_Ferret said:
To continue in this vein are we better served not referencing popular culture in our books because it will date the material? (That's assuming our works are still read in 20 or 30 years.) My own WIP references Black Sabbath, Dali, a Ray Harryhausen movie, and Carlos Castaneda to name a few.

Does the use of pop culture for descriptive purposes indicate a lazy writer? The Dali reference is used to describe some scenary. The rest come up in dialog.

When I think of successful referencing, I think of subtlety and indirectness. Actually saying "The scene looked just like a Dali landscape" is lame. Saying "The trees leant at strange angles, as if held up by crutches", is much more acceptable. IMO.

Jeneral · Feb 11, 2006

chaostitan said:
Wash: Psychic, though? That sounds like something out of science fiction.
Zoe: You live on a space ship, dear.
Wash: So?

Sorry, I couldn't help it.

Glad I wasn't the only one who thought that.

Now I'm trying to think of what that exchange did to that scene. Was it too meta? Or just funny? Did it take you out of the moment? Even though it's television and not the printed word, I think that's a relevant thought.

I never understood what's wrong with pop-culture references in works. I had someone tell me once I should cut a reference to Martha Stewart, because it would date my work. I think it comes down to knowing what references are going to last, as opposed to being a trend that's forgotten in a year or two. But on the other hand, what better way to show the time period something is set in than by showing the world around the characters?

As for the original question, I think the HP reference is apt. Because even if you don't have your character say it, chances are the readers will think it. So why not address it yourself?

kikazaru · Feb 11, 2006

"So I'm writing the scene where the mentor is telling the boy he can do magic, and the boy blurts out, "You mean like Harry Potter?"

Perhaps it would sound better to your ear if your character was skeptical about his special powers. "Oh right" the boy said sarcastically, "just call me Harry Potter."

Christine N. · Feb 11, 2006

That's much better, and it doesn't beat the reader over the head with it either. But I would drop the adverb. Sarcasm would be obvious.

"Oh, right," the boy said. "I'll just draw a scar on my head and you can call me Harry Potter."

MarkN · Feb 11, 2006

Actually, the boy blurts out the "like Harry Potter?" question unthinkingly, and his "mentor" shoots back a sarcastic reply along the lines of JK Rowling being waiting downstairs to whisk him off to Hogwarts to take quidditch lessons etc. The whole scene is likely to land on the cutting room floor, but based on some of the feedback I'm getting, I may let it survive long enough to go through a round of critiques, just to see what people say about it in context. Assuming JKR wouldn't sue, of course.

MattW · Feb 11, 2006

I'd use Houdini or David Blaine if a kid thought they might have magic powers...

HP references: tacky or trendy?

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