Multi-genre books

It sounds like a parody. Nothing unmarketable about it. However, if you write it seriously, then you have a problem in that your archetypes are all turned around. If you can solve it, great. But straight up, your structure becomes jarring and, therefore, unpublishable.

The Prince falls into a coma, and only the Super Salt and Powerful Pepper can save him. Heart-broken by his illness, the stable-girl, together with a fiesty pickpocket and a squire, set off to steal the seasonings from the evil overlord in the next land.

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Glad you found my post enlightening, Rambling. What you've got here is a fantasy--plain and simple. No supernatural, no mystery. Here's why:

1. You've built a WORLD. One where princes and squires and stable-girls live.

2. You've created RULES. Salt and Pepper have curative powers and are rare.

3. You've created FANTASTICAL CREATURES. Ghosts are considered real and can seek vengence against the living.

See, the mystery is a PART, and the ghost is a PART, of the overall world you've created. This world has as much building and rules as Middle Earth, (Tolkein) or Valdemyr (Lackey).

The only question on the romance is how much of the plot getting them together takes. It sounds like the prince is the main story, though. So, you might have a romantic fantasy, but you DO NOT have a fantasy romance!

Make sense? Clear as mud?

More or less. For a while I had a hard time categorizing my novel, because it had so many different elements and just wouldn't fit neatly into one genre or another. So I just called it "mainstream/contemporary" but that's like a catch-all genre. Now I'm willing to call it a romantic coming-of-age story -- it sort of narrows it down to what exactly the story is about. But I cringe when people starts calling it a romance -- not because I have anything against romance novels, but by calling it romance it gives the wrong impression and expectations -- the main focus of the book is not about romance.

Rambling said:

I should have specified that it was a hypothetical novel, created by adding as many genres together as I could reasonably combine. I don't plan to write it - I think.

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Actually, I've read fantasy novels that had all of the "non-fantasy" genre elements that you listed in the same story before. Ghosts, characters falling in love, and questions of who murdered someone are all permissable in fantasy, and in fact make fairly common subplots.

Ain't nothing wrong with mixing genres. There've been mystery-westerns and western-mysteries as long as there have been both westerns and mysteries, for example.

The publisher will pick whichever genre is selling best at that moment on the spine, and off you go to the bookstore.

Rambling said:

But, Jaoman, I'm interested - is it just the genders that subvert the archetypes? I thought you could mix and match those nowdays.

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It's funny how we associate. Just now, I feel assailed by an image from Aladdin of Jinni in his bee/pilot guise buzzing around Aladdin’s ear screaming "DANGER, danggger!" And indeed, I'm dangerously close to political incorrectness here. Let me deal with that first then.

There is an argument about people who deny the existence of God with unprovoked vehemence. It states that to hate something so very much requires just as much belief in its existence as love. Personally, I extend it one step further to political correctness. The enforcement of politically correct standards implies that there is something to enforce them about. When you apply it to people, for all good will, it is no less an act of discrimination as it maintains standards of discrimination by safeguarding notions of the “right” and “wrong” concepts. If we were to eliminate politic correctness and judge people directly by the facts involved, rather than generalized notions, we would have claim on steadier ground, morally speaking.

And what are the facts when applied to the genders? Well, as a simple example, only one sex has an inverse tail and only other sex can produce life. Both of these qualities have ideas, sensations, and concepts attached to them. I would not expect the gender without an inverse tail to comprehend what injury therefore feels like. And I wouldn’t presume to say that I understand pregnancy or giving birth. Two unique differences produce not only sensations but also life expectations and thoughts. Identity is shaped by psychology: I’m sure you’ve heard of the Oedipus Complex. Is it a wonder then that Freud’s last question was still “What do women want?”

Understanding of these conceptual differences is essential to writing because they are at the heart of the archetypes. For the span of written history, they’ve held their own as myths, folk, and fairy tales, even in spite of societies. Romances, for instance, are the most feministically incorrect genre available, are written with the strictest guides in all literature, and are nevertheless read almost entirely by women. Even more so, it is women, and not men, who write the most degrading domination erotica and do it well indeed. Why? Because pushover males are undesirable, and so are weak male characters. Which way goes the discrimination look here?

That isn’t to say strong women characters are unavailable. Some of the best fantasy has female leads. However, it must be placed in its proper context. The motivations, the challenges, and the idiosyncrasies have to be right. What you have in your example, though, is a standard sleeping beauty fairly tale. This leads me to wonder what possibly could make your prince likeable enough for the stable girl to expand all that effort for. Furthermore, what stable girl has it in her to begin with – again, we find ourselves in the context of a medieval society. So, what’s to connect my concepts as a reader to the story you’re setting out to tell? If it’s a parody, that does it. You create connection with the stereotype and involve me through contrast. If it’s in seriousness, the question is put to you for an answer.

The only exception would be for artistic merit. I’d let you get away with retarding the archetypes if you have something to say. However, the application here is obvious: your statement, if genuine, is about our reality, and it is that which piques the mind of the reader. Rebellion for the sake of rebellion is a waste.

Anyway, now that I’ve stopped my rant about applying political correctness to literature, I can answer your question directly: no, archetypes are not only gender based. In fact, they’re the pillars of structure. Trials come in archetypes. The hero has a guardian to overcome at the end of act 1. That’s an archetype which is totally sexless, and even shapeless. The mentor can be whatever you make it out. As can any number of story elements. However, we have different expectations of the sexes, and the sexes have different expectations as such. This inevitably affects the story and everything in it. It is, however, not discrimination, but a creative decision and should not be otherwise mistaken.

Let me further specify that I'm not talking about genres here. A genre is bookshelf category. Story concepts tend to be divided accordingly, but not necessarily. It is the context of the story, yet context is as flexible as the human mind. And the mind, though not a liquid, is not so stiff.

Rambling said:

I don't give you this one though. Fantasy submission is overwhelmingly more common in people than fantasy domination. Females tend to read about males dominating females or males dominating males. Men tend to watch females dominating males or females dominating females. A gender difference, perhaps, but no real discrimination.

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A curious statistic. Where cometh it from?

Rambling said:

But you wouldn't find it suprising that a princess could be likable enough to a stableboy? You don't think much of the male gender, do you

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Male psychology at work here. See it and weep.

MadScientistMatt said:

Actually, I've read fantasy novels that had all of the "non-fantasy" genre elements that you listed in the same story before. Ghosts, characters falling in love, and questions of who murdered someone are all permissable in fantasy, and in fact make fairly common subplots.

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Tamara Siler Jones's novel Ghosts in the Snow comes to mind: a fantasy focussing on a man cursed by the gods to see the ghosts of murder victims until their murderers are brought to justice. Listed by Locus as one of the best first fantasy novels of 2004.

Still definitely a fantasy, though.

You ought to try writing a religious/sci-fi/adventure/mystery series. Turning out to be a tough one for me but it is to good of an idea to pass up.

No problem at all mixing genres and--from a marketing standpoint, it can be a bonus. Of course, your publisher will pick a genre you'll be shelved under (mystery, for instance). But if your mystery has some supernatural elements, you can highlight those when you're approaching spec fiction press (or bookstores). Romance? Play up that subplot to market to romance readers.

Rambling said:

The discussion in this thread http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26407 (thanks Cathy C for a new perspective on genre

) made me wonder - do publishers prefer 'purer' books when it comes to genre? Alternatively, would it be fair to say a clearer focus usually makes a better book?

I mean, say I'm planning the following novel -

The Prince falls into a coma, and only the Super Salt and Powerful Pepper can save him. Heart-broken by his illness, the stable-girl, together with a fiesty pickpocket and a squire, set off to steal the seasonings from the evil overlord in the next land.



Along the way, they are repeatedly put in mortal peril by a malicious ghost. The pickpocket and squire, who have just started falling in love, suspect each other of being the ghost's murderer and distance themselves. However, on investigating the matter, the stable-girl determines the real murderer is someone else entirely and points the ghost in the right direction. In thanks, the ghost tells them a secret entrance to the overlord's castle.

The pickpocket and the squire tearfully reunite. Together, they steal the seasonings and save the Prince. The Prince promptly marries the stable-girl in a double ceremony with the squire and pickpocket, and everyone lives happily ever after.


​

- is it a fantasy novel with some other stuff in it, or is it an unmarketable fantasy-supernatual-mystery-romance?

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It sounds like fantasy with other stuff to me. When you write a novel you don't have to stick with one genre. What determins the genre of a story is its' most dominant feature. In this case, the fantasy world in which the story is set combined with the supernatural aspect of the ghost definately makes this a fantasy story.

For another example, I presently have a project shelved which I identify as a sci-fi story. It is about a man who accidentally time travles to the year 9146. Some of the people in this future world suspect he may be a legendary warrior prophicised to appear at a time of great need. In the course of his adventures is the future he falls in love, joines the military, helps to expose a traitor, discovers he has psychic powers, and is directly responsible for the human race and its' allies scoring a major military victory against an enemy force bent on conquring the galaxy.

How many genre's does that consist of? Sci-fi, fantasy, romance, supernatural, action/adventure, and political thriller just to name a few. If I went into more detail I could name a couple more. However, because the most dominate feature of the story is the setting (a world of the distant future. Space travle, A. I. robots. Numerous species of aliens from other planets.) I consider it to be a sci-fi story though it is clearly made up of several genres. If you would like to see another example I would suggest you read Dune by Frank Herbert.

maestrowork said:

More or less. For a while I had a hard time categorizing my novel, because it had so many different elements and just wouldn't fit neatly into one genre or another. So I just called it "mainstream/contemporary" but that's like a catch-all genre. Now I'm willing to call it a romantic coming-of-age story -- it sort of narrows it down to what exactly the story is about. But I cringe when people starts calling it a romance -- not because I have anything against romance novels, but by calling it romance it gives the wrong impression and expectations -- the main focus of the book is not about romance.

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I feel your problem! I have finished a book I describe as Romance/Fiction, or Chick Lit. The basic plot is a romance but there are so many other elements in the book that I have that same cringe when faced with the concept of simply calling it a romance. My best suggestion is to pick which category, or categories, that you feel best describes the book.