NEPAT Overflow

[maestrowork]

Again, I think people simply do not understand why we're against PA. We certainly have no problem with Lulu or iUniverse or Cafe Press...

The problem is PA positions themselves as a traditional publisher. That itself is a scam. A LIE.

If you understand that PA is NOT a traditional publisher and you still want to go with them with your eyes open, so you have a book in print, nothing is going to stop you and we'll say, good luck. I hope you're happy with the result.

It's the would-be authors who think they're now "traditionally published" and that their books are going to sell "in bookstores everywhere" that we are worried about. They're buying into a lie, and we need to tell them the lie.

So get this straight before we continue the discussion...

[DaveKuzminski]

StuffedToy, some of those PA supporters are actually PA staff in disguise. We've seen that happen on numerous forums in the past years they've been in operation. PA staff have even disguised themselves on their own forum.

When you encounter them, ask them for references and dates whenever they make claims. Don't settle for "I did this and I don't have to prove anything to you." If they want credibility, they have to prove that it's so by giving places, names, titles, ISBNs, and dates. Otherwise, they're nothing more than trolls presumably put up to posting by PA so more victims can be lured into PA's trap.

Even if you believe you know the other person, you should ask for proof. Charlatans rely upon making you feel too embarrassed to dare to ask. Their false facades fall away when you do ask. Individuals with real claims don't have any problem with providing proof because they already know the answers to your questions and don't have to make up lies.

[LloydBrown]

I have talked with some authors who have gone the other route- and self published, and this is really no better, only they have to pay for the printing, though maybe their books are cheaper priced.
I think it's better in every way.

One, you don't have the stigmata attached to PA when you try to sell your book (either individually to a bookstore or the rights to a publisher).

Two, it's not "maybe" cheaper to self-publish, it's far cheaper. PA books are on average about $7 more expensive than traditionally published books the same size (somebody on this board did the math). The cost to produce those books might be two to four bucks each.

Three, you know what you're getting up front. No POD publisher is going to promise to make your books available "from sea to shining sea" with the implication that you're going to achieve national fame and huge success if only you keep buying your books from them. They're providing you with an up-front service and make you fully aware of their business practices ahead of time. No deceit, no anger or self-recrimination later.

[aruna]

Soon after her book was released, I considered writing and asking for a review copy of her book. Based on her description and its focus, I thought it might be worth considering. But my first (online) look at that cover and I was turned off immediately. I didn't ask.

Just curious: how do you all know what her book is, etc? Since she did not post any info on it, and only came in here with the one post.

[Tirjasdyn]

Cause she posted a WW using her real name.

[aruna]

Cause she posted a WW using her real name.

This must sound like an awfully stupid question but what's a WW?

[Medievalist]

Even then, you're better off with a printer like Lulu or Cafe Press.

Absolutely--the price point is better, the delivery system is better, and, if you know what you're doing, (or hire someone who knows) I know you can do a professional looking, affordable book from Lulu--and I suspect the same is true of Cafe Press.

I'd hope that people would at least contemplate going with a consumer publisher though, unless they have good reason to think self-publishing is better for them and for their book. I've used Lulu for text books--even after licensing and printing, the books was much cheaper--and for small print runs of things that have limited interest. But if you think a lot of people would be interested, why not start out by trying consumer publishers? You'll get a much better distribution and marketing system.

There's no reason to go with PublishAmerica.

[Sara Rachael Hope]

FYI:
I e-mailed this forum address to the woman who started it all, in order for her to see what she has missed since she posted and left.

Also, PA authors need to understand that selling their book only puts more $ in Goliath's pocket.
Right PA?
I look forward to your response to this, and am wondering who you are going to 'pose' here as...
I hope you are enjoying this read. At least it is taking time away from you publishing (hahahaha) someone else's story for their (I mean YOUR) benefit.
My condolences to you. Sorry...........
Oops! I WAS taking some time off!
Maybe when I have some time I'll post theneverendingpublishamerica thread address on every newbee's site................hmmmm. May be fun! It would certainly give you something better to do than scam more people, huh?

[AnneMarble]

This must sound like an awfully stupid question but what's a WW?

At Writer's Weekly?

Either that or Wascally Wabbit. I like the second answer better. But then again, it is Friday after all. :D

[NancyMehl]

This must sound like an awfully stupid question but what's a WW?

Writers Weekly - a message board on another site. www.writersweekly.com (http://www.writersweekly.com/).

It wasn't a stupid question at all. <S>

Nancy

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

Absolutely--the price point is better, the delivery system is better, and, if you know what you're doing, (or hire someone who knows) I know you can do a professional looking, affordable book from Lulu--and I suspect the same is true of Cafe Press.What's more, Lulu and CafePress and the other "self-publishing enablers" don't do a seven-year rights grab. When you decide to try to interest a commercial publisher in the reprint rights, you don't have to fight Lulu for rights reversion. Your book is yours.

I can not understand why anyone would go with PublishAmerica, knowing about the price markup, knowing about the rights grabs, knowing about the "don't take that tone with us" letters. Why knowingly work with an abusive company?

[Stuffedtoy]

Ah geesh!!!! And here I was thinking that the things I said were good things. :flag:
I have noticed some really gunho attitudes with PA authors. All ready to promote their work before they even get the proofs- and maybe they have some success. Those trolls... (and I am not one by the way) might just linger around. I certainly know that they read the PA posts- and pull them if they are (how do they say it- hurtful or damaging to the other authors) it's done for OUR own protection. The reality check goes beyond the royalty check, and I fully agree that it's not what some people expect, and blindness is not a virtue.
Another author I speak with, also has "one" book with PA, then went elsewhere with the second. He wasn't happy with them either. The books were cheaper priced, but the work was shabby and there was a lot of communication problems.
There is a lot of information out there for those who really want to know. Some people don't, but truthfully, the best teacher is the one who took the course.
I am poor folk by the way, I can't afford to pay someone to publish my book and then I still have to do all the work. That doesn't sound fair. Putting out all that money and maybe never getting it back. I can make that connection.
Oh well... at least maybe my two cents worth is worth that much? :)

[Aconite]

I saw where a post said "have you been published- not by PA"... what that basically says is that if PA publishes your book; you're not an author. That really isn't fair. As one person said on those boards, and I can attest to myself, some of the PA authors are good writers, while others... well...
Nobody here is saying that if your book was put out by PA, you're not a good writer. (One of the tragedies of PA is that good writers with good books are set up to fail by PA, and those books, which could have been successes, instead disappear.) What they're saying is that PA does not publish books, they print them. Publishing comes with a host of things PA does not supply: critical selection, editing, marketing, and so on. Until your book has been selected for merit by someone who invests in its potential success, you cannot really claim to be published by someone.

See the Neverending PublishAmerica Thread for more details. It's long, and quite an education on real publishing and how PA differs from it.

[Medievalist]

I am poor folk by the way, I can't afford to pay someone to publish my book and then I still have to do all the work. That doesn't sound fair. Putting out all that money and maybe never getting it back. I can make that connection.
Oh well... at least maybe my two cents worth is worth that much? :)

I think maybe you're operating under false assumptions.

You don't pay genuine, consumer, publishers to publish books.

They pay you. They generally pay you when you sign the contract then for delivering specific parts of your book on schedule. You don't pay them. As Yog's Law states, "Money flows towards the author."

If, for whatever reason, you don't want to try conventional publishing, you can publish the book yourself with www.lulu.com or www.cafepress.com. You send them a word processor file, according to their instructions, you provide and create cover art. They print the books. You set the price; they tell you what they'll charge to print a book. They provide a page on their site for your store; you can link to it, or make your own site, or both.

People buy the book from Lulu or cafe press; they ship it to the buyer, and then give you a report. You contribute your labor. You are responsible for providing a quality file, and for marketing, but they don't claim to be editing or doing anything else but printing and binding and shipping your book.

[Kevin Yarbrough]

I especially like the elephant analogy to this situation. As the end goes, "when one stands back far enough to reflect on one's own image in the water, the elaphant becomes more clear."

Then again, Allen, if you don't stand far enough back from the elephant and you provoke it it may well stomp on you or sh!t on you, depending on its mood.

They sh!t on me and when I replied they did their best to stomp on me, ala mister police man.

[DaveKuzminski]

Kevin, what were you doing back there in the first place? Looking to see if they had a pair? ;)

By the way, they don't.

[James D. Macdonald]

Hi, Stuffie -- I know you're not a troll or a drive-by. (I think we first met over at WritersWeekly (WW) http://www.writersweekly.com/

Anyway, as others said: If you're paying to get published you're in the wrong part of the publishing world. (And PA authors -- ask yourselves how much you've paid to get published. How much did those books in your closet cost? How much have you spent on promotion and marketing? How much did your copyright cost? Have you earned that back yet?)

The way to tell if you want to deal with a publisher is to see if they have books on the shelf in your local bookstore. If they don't -- you're not interested.

(And: Rejection is nature's way of telling you to write a better book. If your first book doesn't sell, write another book.)

[LloydBrown]

Anyway, as others said: If you're paying to get published you're in the wrong part of the publishing world. (And PA authors -- ask yourselves how much you've paid to get published. How much did those books in your closet cost? How much have you spent on promotion and marketing? How much did your copyright cost? Have you earned that back yet?)


This got me thinking: why spend 500 hours or whatever promoting your book when you could write another book? Eking out another 100 or 200 sales through personal appearances, letters, and phone calls doesn't pay nearly as well as having a real publisher pick you up and promote a 5k print run (minimum in most cases) for you.

Writers write. Publishers edit, design, promote, sell, and collect revenue that they then share with you.

[wardmclark]

Forgive me if I seem to be a bit of a jerk, but a free-lance writer for 7 years, columnist for 5 years, author of 3 books, book reviewer and poet by the way, who does not know how to spell the words unmitigated, in fact, masturbating, and challenging?

You beat me to it.

[Kevin Yarbrough]

Kevin, what were you doing back there in the first place? Looking to see if they had a pair? ;)

By the way, they don't.
I thought I was looking at their face, Dave. To tell you the truth I just thought they had really bad breath for the first year or so.

[NancyMehl]

Forgive me if I seem to be a bit of a jerk, but a free-lance writer for 7 years, columnist for 5 years, author of 3 books, book reviewer and poet by the way, who does not know how to spell the words unmitigated, in fact, masturbating, and challenging?

We were trying to be nice. :Shrug:

No one wants to discourage ANY PA author from coming here, but at this point, it seems we've been the victims of a "hit and run."

Hard to respect that. If you want to accuse people of something, it is only fair to stay around and listen to their response.

But I guess it's easier this way. No one can challenge you - and you don't have to listen to anyone else's point of view.

Kind of cowardly, though, isn't it?

Nancy

[Gravity]

"What have they got that I ain't got? Kh-ourage..."

[James D. Macdonald]

Everyone knows the story of the six blind men and the elephant -- but do you know the story of the six blind elephants and the man?

Six blind elephants decided they wanted to know what people looked like. So they each went to find out. And when they returned, they discussed the matter, and they all agreed that people are flat and squishy.

[SeanDSchaffer]

We were trying to be nice. :Shrug:

Yeah, I know you were. One of these days I'll get the troll issue down-packed.

No one wants to discourage ANY PA author from coming here, but at this point, it seems we've been the victims of a "hit and run."

One of the reasons for my post that you quoted, was that when PA first put my book out, several Guestbook Slammers had a field day with my old website's guestbook. I eventually had to shut the guestbook down because of it. And several of those Guestbook Slammers claimed to be big-time professionals, but they never gave any kind of facts, only vague generalities. Just like the original poster has done.

Hard to respect that. If you want to accuse people of something, it is only fair to stay around and listen to their response.

You're right, it's very hard to respect that. Especially if you don't know who in the world is accusing you.

But I guess it's easier this way. No one can challenge you - and you don't have to listen to anyone else's point of view.

It's always easier for people to say things when they believe they can't be found out. The same is true when they believe they're in the majority. Guilty as charged.

Kind of cowardly, though, isn't it?

Again, guilty.

[Stuffedtoy]

Evening fellow debaters... I have found my way back here again. Most likely out of boredom. :)
Anyway.... about the paying thing. I was talking about self publishing.
And if it is of any interest... I have two books presently in the posession of REAL(or what I have heard) publishing companies. It's been 3 months and counting now. Time goes by oh so slow!
Right James... we did meet on the warnings board. It's always a pleasure. :banana:

[Christine N.]

Ooo, ten bookstores. I checked out the OP's post on WW. She's in a whopping ten bookstores. Too many to name? Ten is not that many. In fact, it's not impressive. I am impressed at your fortitude - I know you had to work your tail off to get into those ten stores. Which is NOT what commercial publishers are about. Commercial publishers want one thing from authors - for them to write more books, and make them more money. They make money from , and here's the really good part, selling to BOOKSTORES. Real, physical stores where people can browse and touch and see the books. Online stores are for people who already know what book they want to buy.

I do know I'm not going to have to do that - I just gotta go and do my signings and let my publisher worrry about how many stores the books going into. My little publisher's gotten distributed at All B&N's now, and by the time the book is releases, Border will be on board too. I will NEVER have to go and beg them to carry my book. It'll be more than ten bookstores, I can tell you that.

I know, she'll never read this, probably. Some people just have to make themselves feel better about the choices they've made by lashing out. Maybe someday she'll own the mistake.

OK, I'm done. And Stuffed Toy, yes, it does go by so slow. It's hard to wait for something you want so much.

[book_maven]

I don't know how many of you are familiar with this blog, but it is a powerful, clear and perfect one for all writers to read. I especially commend the latest entry. While the original poster of this thread would do well to read it, so would anyone aspiring to be a published writer. (I am a devoted fan.)

http://agentoo7.blogspot.com/

[NancyMehl]

Hey, Sean. My post referred to the first poster - not to you. My comment about being nice wasn't meant for you either. I was simply explaining why I didn't say what you were brave enought to say! LOL!

I want to be sure you know I wasn't being critical of you in any way.....

I appreciate your posts.

Nancy

[MacAllister]

You know what, y'all? I'm thinking perhaps I should splice this into the NEPAT Overflow, since the OP asked to be unregistered--then the conversation can continue along, without having stray PA threads that need to be rounded up later.

Is that cool with everyone?

[Birol]

Good idea, Mac.

[SeanDSchaffer]

Hey, Sean. My post referred to the first poster - not to you. My comment about being nice wasn't meant for you either. I was simply explaining why I didn't say what you were brave enought to say! LOL!

I want to be sure you know I wasn't being critical of you in any way.....

I appreciate your posts.

Nancy


Thanks Nancy. I appreciate that. But I still think I was a bit of a jerk in my original post. I'm always bothered when other people complain about spelling in a forum post, and here I was complaining about the first poster's spelling. I must admit, I do feel rather hypocritical right about now, having posted what I said. That's part of the reason I responded to your post the way I did. I felt bad because I was being, in my own eyes, a hypocrite.

BTW, I hope you didn't think I was being a jerk to you too. I appreciate your posts also and personally am glad you pointed out to me--albeit inadvertently--what I now know I had done wrong.

Sean

:Hug2:

[Gravity]

For those of you in a singing mood, regarding "refit", join with me now (sung to the tune of "The MTA", a golden oldie by the Kingston Trio):

"Well, did she ever return?"
"No, she never returned,
And her fate is still unlearned (poor old Refit).
Yes, she'll ride forever
In the bowels of PA.
She's the gal, who never returned..."


Thank you, thank you all, I'll be here all week, and be sure to tip your waitresses!
The AbsoluteWrite crowd is the best crowd in the world! Wooooooo!!!

John (file this under S for silly)

[NancyMehl]

John,

I'm still laughing. Thanks for that.

Sean,

Jim told me once that it is dangerous to make comments about someone else's spelling problems. You are doomed to make a mistake yourself if you do.

I just wanted everyone to know - I really do know how to spell "enough."

Sigh.

Nancy

[SeanDSchaffer]

Jim told me once that it is dangerous to make comments about someone else's spelling problems. You are doomed to make a mistake yourself if you do.

I just wanted everyone to know - I really do know how to spell "enough."



Well, I believe I've learned something new here today. I never knew that was an issue: making comments about others' spelling. But it makes sense. I won't make any more comments--although I may want to--about others' spelling issues. It's really not important to posting on a website. Besides, respecting my fellow writers includes those I might not agree with. So....

If everyone else wants to have at it, cool. I think I will leave this "PA is Fine!" thread alone for a while, though.

Have a good week, everyone. Talk to you all later.

:)

[reph]

What's the etiquette about commenting on others' spelling mistakes if you never make such mistakes yourself?

[LloydBrown]

Well, I believe I've learned something new here today. I never knew that was an issue: making comments about others' spelling. But it makes sense.

In general, it's proper etiquette to overlook spelling errors in informal postings online (message boards, yes, web content no).

However, we're supposed to be writers. I think most people here would appreciate a PM or a quick post concerning an inadvertent mistake. Disclaimers: I wouldn't worry about typos, and don't let it derail the thread.

Sometimes, somebody shows up that clearly can't spell anything. These folks usually show up to defend something that isn't worth defending (like PA) and I think they're fair game for blasting. For a writer, spelling is critical. If you can't spell, you'll never make it past the query stage.

[/hijack]

[maestrowork]

Personally, I think it's poor form to comment on someone's spelling errors or grammar on a bulletin board. There are exceptions, of course: if the poster is asking for it (being rude, criticizing other people's typos when he misspells words as well, etc.) or in Share Your Work area... If you see a friend online who keeps using "your" instead of "you're," for example, then you may want to use PM to tell that friend. But publically correcting someone's post is, I believe, considered rude.

[allenparker]

Then again, Allen, if you don't stand far enough back from the elephant and you provoke it it may well stomp on you or sh!t on you, depending on its mood.


I think that the best advice any of us could give, whether we are with PA, against PA, or never heard of PA, is to support the authors in th process.


One thing I think is great about this place is the way the authors support each other.

Allen

[brinkett]

Personally, I think it's poor form to comment on someone's spelling errors or grammar on a bulletin board. There are exceptions, of course: if the poster is asking for it (being rude, criticizing other people's typos when he misspells words as well, etc.) or in Share Your Work area... If you see a friend online who keeps using "your" instead of "you're," for example, then you may want to use PM to tell that friend. But publically correcting someone's post is, I believe, considered rude.
And it's often only done when a discussion is deteriorating, when the one pointing the finger has nothing intelligent to say in response. I agree with your post.

Boards like AW are informal. I know it's a board where writers hang out, but when I type a post, I type it quickly. I don't edit it and I don't care if there's a typo or two or a grammatical error, nor do I care if I see typos and grammatical errors in the posts of others. As long as I understand what they're saying, that's fine. I'm intelligent enough to understand that how someone writes in a post isn't representative of how they write "for real", when they take the time to edit, carefully consider word choice, etc.

Anyone who gets upset over typos on boards like this should probably spend their time doing something else until they get over it.

[James D. Macdonald]

07-22-2005, 09:56 AM [/url] [url="member.php?u=160"]Gravity (showpost.php?p=277191&postcount=22885) vbmenu_register("postmenu_277191", true);
Board fanatic

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Posts: 194
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Wups. Roberta posted this just before I did. Nevermind.

[James D. Macdonald]

-22-2005, 01:58 PM Sparhawk (http://member.php?u=1102) vbmenu_register("postmenu_277406", true);
Jenna's Cabana Boy

Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Thundera
Posts: 197

--------------------

"PublishAmerica - LET THE AUTHORS GO - ALREADY! Will it take a Biblical act of a Higher Power to convince PublishAmerica to release those who are dissatisfied with the performance of the company? What will it take? Inquiring minds need to know! - NOW!

PublishAmerica - Let myself and fellow authors who request to have their contracts cancelled, enjoy the sweet smell of freedom. Restore our dignity and mental health by sending those who desire to have their contracts cancelled - an e-mail, followed by a registered letter to that effect. Please allow our sleepless nights to be restored; and our anxiety levels to be lowered to an acceptable level.

PublishAmerica - I, along with others who are asking to be released - are dispensable. PublishAmerica can fill the void left by our departure - in One New York Minute.

Publish America - What does your organization have to gain by retaining our intellectual work in your's and Lightening Source's database. Our data is taking up valuable storage space - which can be alloted to future first-time, happy to be associated with PublishAmerica, authors.

PublishAmerica - Let Me Go. Let others, who have requested that their contracts be cancelled - grant their wish, as well. "
---------------------------------------------------------------------

PublishAmerica - Like the song says: "Please Release Me, Let Me Go..."


Argile Stox

Dear Mr. Argile Stox,

Please consult legal coucil before slandering those of us at Publish America who are tyring to fulfill the dreams of so many writers. I find your tone offensive and incomprehensible; in fact, don't take that tone with me !!

Publish America has offered you your freedom in our contract amendment , all you have to do is sign it. Just never bad mmouth us again and sing our praises and let us still sell your book along with another publisher thereby still making a profit on your sweat. But you see, Argile, It's because letting you all go would make you happy is why you must stay. We're hoping you'll weaken and buy more of your own books, or at least give into the temptation of promoting your own book for awhile. Lest you forget, every sale you make is 92 percent in our pocket.. for the next seven years baby !!!!! We here at Publish America were failed writers, you know that. It has been our mission to make as many other writers as miserable as we are. Misery loves company and we get awfully lonely here at our palatial digs in Frederick, Maryland. Welcome to our club. We can't get published by a real publishing company and with our stigmatta attached to you; neither can you. MUWAHAHAHAHA!! I hope you see things clearly now.

Our ranks are growing each and every day as we swindle.. I mean welcome more and more authors to the Publish America family. Our goal is to discourage every new writer out here, in that way we will bring the publishing world to its knees. Since you've taken such an interest in our businiess practices we've decided to offer you Mr. Willem Meiners best selling book for the mere cost of $29.95. This is truly a bargain at any price. If you order 50 of your own books we'll give you the Meiners book free, and if you grovel and sing our praises MR. Weiner, I mean Meiner, will even autograph it for you, thereby making it a true collectors item.

I hope we've cleared up your concerns and have answered your questions.

As always thank you. When the phone doesn't ring you'll know it's us giving you your rights back.

Sincerely,

Jusasucka,

PA author Abuse Team

[James D. Macdonald]

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Absolute Sage

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==========================

Would I be out of line to say that my new book will be starting to hit the stores, and available via Amazon.com, as of tomorrow, July 26th?

(Hope not!)

Anyone who likes fantasy might want to check it out. The first 100 pages are posted on my website, if you'd like to read a bit of it.

-Ann C. Crispin
Author: STORMS OF DESTINY/HarperEos
www.accrispin.com (http://www.accrispin.com/)

[AnneMarble]

Would I be out of line to say that my new book will be starting to hit the stores, and available via Amazon.com, as of tomorrow, July 26th?


Ooh! Ooh! Ooh!
:Clap: :banana: :Hail:

So much for my "no more books until I go on vacation" vow. I broke it in spades this weekend anyway. And what was I doing in spades anyway?!

[Canada James]

Let's see ... according to Ingram's stock check number, your book has:

Of course, Ingram is just a dipstick. It isn't all sales -- just most sales via bookstores.

Your Amazon rank is around 2.1 million, which isn't really very good.


Ingram and Amazon are probably the worst ways to decide how a book is selling. Take my new book, for example, and you'll see that it doesn't have a ranking at Amazon.ca nor is it stocked by Ingram. Does that mean it isn't selling?

Nope.

What it means is that it isn't selling at Amazon, and it isn't carried by Ingram.
What I would suggest is this:

Use http://bookmanager.com/tbm/

This is basically a Canadian equivalent (don't worry, it takes US sales into account) of books in print that will not only tell you what distributors have the book in stock but an overall sales ranking based on more than just one store/distributor.

C. James

[Canada James]

This got me thinking: why spend 500 hours or whatever promoting your book when you could write another book?

Because:
(1) there are a lot of great publishers that won't take you on as an author if you don't.

(2) some of those personal appearances are great revenue for an author. You don't have to do everything for free.

C. James

[James D. Macdonald]

Use www.bookmanager.com (http://www.bookmanager.com)


Great resource, James.

[DaveKuzminski]

Use www.bookmanager.com (http://www.bookmanager.com/)

This is basically a Canadian equivalent (don't worry, it takes US sales into account) of books in print that will not only tell you what distributors have the book in stock but an overall sales ranking based on more than just one store/distributor.

C. James

Good call, CJ!

[aruna]

I can not understand why anyone would go with PublishAmerica, knowing about the price markup, knowing about the rights grabs, knowing about the "don't take that tone with us" letters. Why knowingly work with an abusive company?

I think it's the desperation - they just want to be able to say they're published. I went to their forum out of curiosity and it's sad to see all the excitement among those who've just signed their contract and see their future as a writer sealed. Sad, and scary.

[aruna]

....nor do I care if I see typos and grammatical errors in the posts of others. As long as I understand what they're saying, that's fine. I'm intelligent enough to understand that how someone writes in a post isn't representative of how they write "for real", when they take the time to edit, carefully consider word choice, etc.


whew, that's a relief! i make tons of typos. If I spot one after the fact I go back and edit but I do miss lots, especially in the hours after posting.

[cwgranny]

For a writer, spelling is critical. If you can't spell, you'll never make it past the query stage.

I can't spell. I mean I REALLY can't spell. I suspect it has something to do with how my brain is wired. If a word exists in the Webster's New World Speller/Divider, I probably cannot spell it without help. And my spelling is getting worse as I get older and have more and more trouble retrieving the correct spelling from my brain.

And yet, I have been writing professionally since 1983 and for many years supported myself solely on my writing. I make it past the query stage regularly. How can that be?

The main thing a writer needs is awareness of his/her weaknesses and a plan for (1) improving and/or (2) coping where improvement is not an option. On those occasions when people spot really dreadful spelling errors (in a post) and point it out to me, they aren't really helping -- I still won't spell the word right next time without the help of my pocket speller -- but I usually thank them for meaning well. However, I use my speller even in writing posts because (1) it's how I cope with my problem so I use it automatically ALL THE TIME because even one miss with an editor is bad (well, semi bad...some of my long-time editors are used to me and laugh at the occasional slip up) and (2) because a really serious spelling mess like those I produce without help will lower the effectiveness of a post and if my post isn't effective, why would I waste my time making it?

Personally, being an effective writer isn't something I strive for just when I'm getting a check at the end -- it is part and parcel of who I am. And if I have a serious problem (and I do) then correcting it is important to me all the time. I find it surprising when others don't feel the same -- but isn't it human nature to be surprised everytime someone sees things differently? And it makes life so interesting.

[Aconite]

There's a huge difference between "informal" and "sloppy" or "completely ignorant." This board is an informal forum. I think we all overlook obvious typos, the odd misspelling, or the informal grammatical construction, the same way we might overlook someone talking with a little food in their mouth at a picnic. But just the same way you might speak up if that person were spraying food all over and using their hands to scoop up the lasagna, people speak up when someone who claims to be a writer is abusing the language. Implying or stating that we've got sticks up our behinds if we do so may make you feel superiorly unsticked, but I'll bet even you'd say something if I dropped gobs of half-chewed macaroni on your dinner table.

[brinkett]

There's a huge difference between "informal" and "sloppy" or "completely ignorant."

But we rarely see completely ignorant. We see someone pointing out that "its" should have been "it's" or something like that, and usually when the discussion is heated and someone's being snarky.


Implying or stating that we've got sticks up our behinds if we do so may make you feel superiorly unsticked, but I'll bet even you'd say something if I dropped gobs of half-chewed macaroni on your dinner table.
Well, we're talking different situations here. I don't accept the analogy you're drawing--seeing a typo in a post on an informal message board isn't the same as someone spitting half chewed food all over your dinner table. Not even close.

If someone's posts are so riddled with typos that you can't handle it, you can put them on ignore. Or if you feel so inclined, you can PM them. There's no reason to publicly correct someone on a board like this.

By the way, I wasn't implying that those who don't like typos in posts have sticks up their behinds. I just don't understand why people bothered by typos would choose to hang around on informal boards where there are guaranteed to be typos. Life's too short to spend time on things you know will irritate you. Best to find another activity or learn to overlook typos in posts. That's what I meant.

[maestrowork]

Would you correct your friend's grammar and accent when you have an informal conversation with her? To do so is RUDE in real life, no matter how good a friend you are with her. Not to mention if she is a total stranger.

Same thing here.

Now, if your friend is preparing for a big speech and she needs your help, that's a different story.

[Aconite]

But we rarely see completely ignorant. We see someone pointing out that "its" should have been "it's" or something like that, and usually when the discussion is heated and someone's being snarky.

Maybe you and I hang out in different parts of the board, then, because I certainly do see posters without a good grasp of language, usage, and word choice.

Well, we're talking different situations here. I don't accept the analogy you're drawing--seeing a typo in a post on an informal message board isn't the same as someone spitting half chewed food all over your dinner table. Not even close.
That wasn't the analogy I drew. I said typos were like talking with a little food in your mouth at a picnic--acceptable under the circumstances.

If someone's posts are so riddled with typos that you can't handle it, you can put them on ignore. Or if you feel so inclined, you can PM them. There's no reason to publicly correct someone on a board like this.
First, I'm not just talking about typos. Second, what if I feel it's disrespectful to post that sloppily on a writers' board and expect others to just deal with it because it doesn't bother you? If your table manners disturb me, I will mention it. If you persist, I will not eat with you anymore. Etiquette does not insist that I go straight to ignoring you; I am permitted to comment on the situation.


By the way, I wasn't implying that those who don't like typos in posts have sticks up their behinds. I just don't understand why people bothered by typos would choose to hang around on informal boards where there are guaranteed to be typos.
That's how we were supposed to take "Anyone who gets upset over typos on boards like this should probably spend their time doing something else until they get over it"?

Best to find another activity or learn to overlook typos in posts.
IOW, "You should be like me."

[cwgranny]

Would you correct your friend's grammar and accent when you have an informal conversation with her?

If my friend were a writer and I knew she wanted to make words and the use of words into her career -- yup, I would correct a usage issue in an informal conversation if it's obvious she really doesn't know the correct usage and it's a recurring problem for her (and not just a typo) -- learning the difference might help her writing later.

Now, if I have a friend who works construction and doesn't give a hoot about words or their usage -- then, no, of course I wouldn't correct her words or usage since correcting her would do nothing except suggest I consider my job (using words) to be more valuable than her job (using her hands and her brain differently).

However, if I decided to switch to construction and my construction buddy happened to see me using a hammer casually (to put together a birdhouse) and sees that I'm doing it wrong. I certainly wouldn't be offended to be shown the right way -- I would appreciate getting some help in my career goal. In fact, to be honest, even though I am a total klutz and have NO interest in construction work, I would still appreciate tips in how to use a hammer -- but that's just me.

Though it pays not to be too delicate about mistakes/typos. I once sent a note to a children's magazine editor say I would soon be sending "the whore article" (I meant whole, whole!). That editor STILL, TO THIS DAY, teases me about it now and again. I guess she didn't know I was supposed to be sensitive about typos.

gran

[maestrowork]

Well, a friend of mine corrected my grammar when we were chatting one day, about the weather, I think. In front of everybody. I haven't spoken with that "friend" for a while now. ;)

Seriously, if someone's typos bother you that much, send that person a PM! It really is rude to offer unsolicited correction publically. Take my words for it.

[Aconite]

It really is rude to offer unsolicited correction publically. Take my words for it.
It doesn't have to be. It can be done with tact. Much depends on context and execution--and on the person being corrected. I prefer to be corrected rather than be allowed to go on ignorant of my errors--I consider it a kindness. My spouse does not want to be corrected, ever, even if it's to be told, "Yes, actually, that electric fence you're about to touch is on."

[maestrowork]

It doesn't have to be. It can be done with tact. Much depends on context and execution--and on the person being corrected. I prefer to be corrected rather than be allowed to go on ignorant of my errors--I consider it a kindness. My spouse does not want to be corrected, ever, even if it's to be told, "Yes, actually, that electric fence you're about to touch is on."

The keyword is "unsolicited." Just as you said, you have no problem with people correcting you in public, but some people like your spouse might have a problem. So, on a bulletin board, it's probably not a good idea to correct someone you don't really know that well. You may offend someone or hurt someone's feeling without even knowing it and your intention might be a kind one -- send a PM instead! That's what I say...

[brinkett]

Maybe you and I hang out in different parts of the board, then, because I certainly do see posters without a good grasp of language, usage, and word choice.

We must. Most of the posts I see are fine. They may have the odd typo, wrong word, or grammatical error, but still communicate their point.

That wasn't the analogy I drew. I said typos were like talking with a little food in your mouth at a picnic--acceptable under the circumstances.

So the analogy you were drawing was that a sloppy post riddled with typos and grammatical errors is like someone spitting food all over your table? Still don't buy it. Sorry.


Etiquette does not insist that I go straight to ignoring you; I am permitted to
comment on the situation.

Sure, as long as you understand that it often reflects worse on the person doing the correcting than it does on the one being corrected. If you're okay with that, correct away.


That's how we were supposed to take "Anyone who gets upset over typos on boards like this should probably spend their time doing something else until they get over it"?

That's what I meant by it, yes.


IOW, "You should be like me."
Yes, in this case, I do think it's better that you be more like me. You'll find the boards much more enjoyable.


I prefer to be corrected rather than be allowed to go on ignorant of my errors

Sure. If you read my posts (and Ray's), you'll see that we're talking against correcting people PUBLICLY, not privately. When you do it publicly, it comes across as being smarmy, which is why it often reflects badly on the one doing the correcting.

[Aconite]

So the analogy you were drawing was that a sloppy post riddled with typos and grammatical errors is like someone spitting food all over your table? Still don't buy it. Sorry.
Yes, that is the comparison I'm drawing. A certain level of sloppiness is rude to the people around you, and attempting to excuse it on the grounds that it doesn't bother you and shouldn't bother anyone else is missing the point.

Sure, as long as you understand that it often reflects worse on the person doing the correcting than it does on the one being corrected. If you're okay with that, correct away.
Ah, so standing up for my right to be comfortable in a forum is rude? If I don't agree that it should be acceptable to let it all hang out, I'm just a fussy geezer who should change so you don't have to?

That's what I meant by it, yes.
Then maybe you'd want to rethink the wording, because it came across as pretty combative to me.

Yes, in this case, I do think it's better that you be more like me. You'll find the boards much more enjoyable.
And if I point out that the problem could also be solved by your being more like me, is that similarly acceptable to you?

Sure. If you read my posts (and Ray's), you'll see that we're talking against correcting people PUBLICLY, not privately. When you do it publicly, it comes across as being smarmy, which is why it often reflects badly on the one doing the correcting.
I have no problems being corrected in public. Why can't you just be more like me and relax about it? After all, this is an informal forum where people do correct each other, so you'd stress a lot less if you just accepted that. Right?

[brinkett]

Yes, that is the comparison I'm drawing. A certain level of sloppiness is rude to the people around you, and attempting to excuse it on the grounds that it doesn't bother you and shouldn't bother anyone else is missing the point.

We'd both have to agree that typos and grammatical errors are rude. We don't.


Ah, so standing up for my right to be comfortable in a forum is rude? If I don't agree that it should be acceptable to let it all hang out, I'm just a fussy geezer who should change so you don't have to?

I don't see where I said that in my post.


Then maybe you'd want to rethink the wording, because it came across as pretty combative to me.

I did clarify the meaning in my next post.


And if I point out that the problem could also be solved by your being more like me, is that similarly acceptable to you?

But I don't think there's a problem when posts contain errors, so I don't think there's a problem to solve.


I have no problems being corrected in public. Why can't you just be more like me and relax about it? After all, this is an informal forum where people do correct each other, so you'd stress a lot less if you just accepted that. Right?
I'm not stressing over people publicly correcting others; just pointing out that it's generally not done on informal forums like these. If anyone sounds stressed over this conversation, it's you. I think you're taking all of this a little too personally, which is why I'll drop it now.

[Aconite]

If anyone sounds stressed over this conversation, it's you. I think you're taking all of this a little too personally, which is why I'll drop it now.
How magnanimous of you. Or is that condescending? I always get those confused.

[Lady of Prose]

:flag: You both have a tremendous amount to contribute to these boards. However, I have to say that right now you are sounding a bit like some of the authors on the PA boards when they get into their little squabbles. What was this thread about? :)

Don't hit me please! :kiss:

[Aconite]

Don't hit me please! :kiss:
I'd only do that if you were really into it, and asked nicely. :)

[Lady of Prose]

:) Gee, thanks!

[Ol' Fashioned Girl]

It's not dying this time, but it claims it's 'going away'.

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=4189

(This is a link to the public message board... if that's not okay, someone delete this sucker and slap me!)

Ol' Girl

[aka eraser]

It's okay Girl.

Kinda like a horror movie though eh? The guy just refuses to stay dead.

[DaveKuzminski]

He has professional representation? Knowing him, it's probably someone like Robert Fletcher. ;)

[Sara Rachael Hope]

Yea!!!!!!!
Go girl!!!!!!!!!!!!!:PartySmil
I'm proud of U!
D.

[NancyMehl]

Unfortunately, he'll be back at some point. But it will be on some message board - begging for attention.

As far as the literary world is concerned...nary a ripple.

Bye, bye. :hi:

Nancy

[batgirl]

I think I have the answer to why Publishamerica won't let authors go, even though they aren't making money for PA, are angry and resentful, do their best to bring the company down, and so on.

There's a psychological disorder called "animal hoarding". The archetypal old lady with her dozens of cats in a filthy house, but she's convinced that her pets are all in perfect condition and happy, and no amount of evidence will sway her. You can read an interesting (but disturbing) discussion of it here: http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/002253.html

I think Publish America is "author hoarding". A quote from the discussion above is telling: As one animal welfare worker (http://it.wce.wwu.edu/necc97/poster4/ArtsEdNet/WebWhacker/WW726.html) said, “Collecting is not about having a loving home. Collecting is not about love, it’s about control. I have real contempt for collectors.”
Sometimes neighbours stage interventions on animal hoarders. That might be more difficult to arrange in this case.
-Barbara

[astonwest]

My mother would correct my grammar all the time growing up.

I, likewise, correct my wife...

Reminds me of a funny story from way back, though...one of which I shouldn't repeat for decency purposes...hmmmm...

[astonwest]

A posting at another site I visit...about Xlibris (http://groups.msn.com/AspiringWriters/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=7871&LastModified=4675532344823665548)
(read under offer 2)
We'll have to come back and see whether PA's new "marketing tools" (as mentioned in their most recent author harassment) resemble these in some way...

[Christine N.]

Ugh, there is so much "thank you PA" and "we're here for you PA - keep growing" crap on the boards that I just want to run and pound Meiners head in.

Just wanted to say that, it's disgusting the way they have those poor people deluded.

[Sheryl Nantus]

Ugh, there is so much "thank you PA" and "we're here for you PA - keep growing" crap on the boards that I just want to run and pound Meiners head in.

Just wanted to say that, it's disgusting the way they have those poor people deluded.

patience... in about a month those royalty checks are going to be "flying" out of the PA offices and a lot of people are going to be standing by their mailboxes with a confused look, wondering what happened to their life savings...

:Wha:

"But... I bought 200 books with my kid's college fund and I still have 150 left... and I only sold *5* online? And my royalty for that was only three bucks?"

it's a harsh awakening, that's for sure... first they'll be emailing PA with their questions about sales they KNOW were made but weren't paid for... and PA will start with the "90 days for us to get paid" line and then move up to the "don't take that tone with us"...

and then they'll end up here.

*sighs*

[Gravity]

and then they'll end up here

__________________________________________________ __________

And that's the crying shame of it all. We get a new batch of devastated writers on this end of the pipe, and on the other end PA gets an influx of bright-eyed newbies. Thus parity is maintained.

***sigh***

What we in have here in PublishAmerica, ladies and gents, is simply the most pristine, perfect scam ever devised in the mind of man. Give the devil his due, locating their home office in the most corrupt state in the Union was a stroke of pure genius. Legally they're untouchable, and ethically they don't care. A dynamite combination.

All I can say is, the Stooges are building up a ton of bad karma with their psychopathic disregard for fairness. Eventually payday comes.

[Aconite]

I think Publish America is "author hoarding".
Wow. It all makes sense if you look at it that way. Good call.

[TracySutterer & GaryRogers]

I believe that PublishAmerica's motive for keeping myself and other disgruntled authors is simple:

1. It costs PublishAmerica next to nothing to keep an authors intellectual property stored in Lightening Source's data base.

2. It costs PublishAmerica next to nothing to have authors books displayed on Internet Booksellers websites in the United States & all over the world.

3. If, by happenstance a customer buys a book from Internet booksellers, that's profit!

I have been monitoring my book sales on Amazon, Barnes & Noble Internet websites since my book came out. I am aware that rankings fluctuates very rapidly. In the past few weeks my rankings on these sites have dropped and risen many times. Am I selling books? I don't know.

Yet, it appears that the more noise I make on message boards for PublishAmerica to release me from my contract - my rankings decline. The less noise - the rankings increase.

It is not my intention to sell books by slamming PublishAmerica. I am aware that controversy does create interest by the public. However, I do not want to line PublishAmerica's pockets with profit - while I am trying to get out of my contract.

It appears that I am damned if I do - damned if I don't. Yet, I am a loss as to what step to take - in order for PublishAmerica to release me from my contract.

I have been toying with an idea ask the members of this forum for imput. Do you think it would be a good idea to ask the members of this forum and other forums to e-mail the letter below to Author Support?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Author Support,

It has come to my attention that Argile Stox - Author / Computer-End Program / ISBN 1-4137-2496-5 would enjoy being released from his contractual obligations with PublishAmerica, immediately.

I have personally read his numerous complaints on message board forums and feel that his issues are valid. He is unhappy with the preformance of PublishAmerica and the sales of his book in the marketplace and other factors, which has led to his decision & desire to have his association with PublishAmerica dissolved.

It would be in the best interests of all concerned that Mr. Stox be released from his contract, to avoid any future negative Posts and/or articles which may be circulated on the Internet regarding PublishAmerica.

Please advise as to your findings.

Sincerely,

xxxxxxxx
------------------------------------------------------------------------
This letter writing campaign would flood PublishAmerica's e-mail box and would certainly garner some attention. What do you think?

Argile Stox

[Christine N.]

I think it would be like trying to get someone to answer the phone there. Is it easier to hit the delete key or ignore a ringing phone.

Perhaps if you put something like "manuscript submission" in the subject line (or perhaps "menuscrupt submishen"?) that would at least make them open the e-mail. After they read the first line, they'll just move on, and ignore the messages.

[Sheryl Nantus]

you're just fighting a losing war with the emails - if Molly Brent and the rest of the PA authors had to use a lawyer and fight tooth and nail to get out of their contracts, it's highly unlikely they're going to respond to a spamming attack.

and, frankly, why just you? Why not include the names of all disgruntled PA authors?

get a good lawyer.

write another book.

[CaoPaux]

Off on a tangent...How Not To Promote Your Book

http://openhorizons.blogspot.com/2005/07/amazoncom-bestseller-campaigns-why.html

[Dawno]

Off on a tangent...How Not To Promote Your Book

http://openhorizons.blogspot.com/2005/07/amazoncom-bestseller-campaigns-why.html

Thanks for the link - the comments are priceless!! Amazing how this guy (a PA author, right?) calls his ploy "marketing" Seems like he's good company for Meiners, Clopper, et al.

[Dawno]

sorry for the serial posting but I was reading further into Kremer's blog and came upon this advice:

Since 80% of all books are sold by word-of-mouth, your primary goal in marketing your books is to create a core group of people who will spark that word-of-mouth. I like to think of these people as the officers for your word-of-mouth army, because what you ultimately want to create is an army of people talking about your book. In that army, you'll have privates, corporals, sergeants, lieutenants, majors, colonels, and generals. The moment someone meets one of your authors, they've self-promoted themselves to at least a corporal. If they get an autograph, count them a sergeant. If they buy ten books for other people, promote them to lieutenant. You get the idea. emphasis mine.

Does this look like MLM or am I crazy?

[Sheryl Nantus]

looks like a frakking pyramid scheme to me...

:P

[MacAllister]

smells like one, anyway...

[CaoPaux]

Actually, the book in question is from Open Horizons, but PA pushes it on their authors: http://www.publishamerica.com/MarketingInfo/moreinfo.htm

And if you check out the rest of his website...well, I feel unclean. http://deephousepage.com/smilies/shudder.gif

[Dawno]

Yep, Cao, I feel a bit grimy too, but somehow it seems like a public service to read it so I'm prepared to speak out about it. Thanks for the correction about his book not being PA published. Another PA "partnership" I guess.

On one page I read that he also offers a $100 book cover critique service. It includes a personal 10 minute phone consultation. I wonder who his audience is? [/sarcasm] :rolleyes:

[Sheryl Nantus]

hmm... I thought the cover looked too good to come out of the PA Kiddie Photoshop...

:D

[Dawno]

I wonder what some of the pro writers here think of the statement from an author who says he spends 20% of his time writing and 80% of his time to marketing and that one third of his income goes to self promotion?? (the link to the interview was in Kremer's blog for today). *whew*

Funny thing though, that guy's book sounds like something I might enjoy since I'm a big fan of Evanovitch...

[James D. Macdonald]

I wonder what some of the pro writers here think of the statement from an author who says he spends 20% of his time writing and 80% of his time to marketing and that one third of his income goes to self promotion?? (the link to the interview was in Kremer's blog for today). *whew*

(The interview is here: http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/investing/20050726b1.asp )

If he really is spending 80% of his time and 1/3 of his income on promotion he's wasting his time and his money....

[James D. Macdonald]

This looks more like Take It Outside material than Bewares and Background Check material....

[Dawno]

(The interview is here: http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/investing/20050726b1.asp )

If he really is spending 80% of his time and 1/3 of his income on promotion he's wasting his time and his money....

How did I know you'd say that? :)

[Fractured_Chaos]

Doing a little spring cleaning there, Uncle Jim? :D

[rtilryarms]

Holey Smokes. Thanks for the memories.


Fortunately I do not have a good named to be besmearched (sic)

[James D. Macdonald]

Just a little spring cleaning, yes.

[PVish]

Has PA released its biggest cheerleader? I notice that his three books are no longer listed at all on the PA bookstore. Makes you wonder if he really wrote the "Shut-Down" message on
http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=4189.

If he did, why didn't the others who were released get a parting message on the PAMB?

[Lady of Prose]

If he did, why didn't the others who were released get a parting message on the PAMB?

I think one of two reasons. Someone from PA has been impersonating HB as "guest." Or, it really is him and the others have no voice because they are banned and he isn't, and he can hack in as guest. I think if the latter was the case, the post would have been pulled.

[Dawno]

The PAMB will not allow guest posts. (give it a try) If PA bans someone but opts to leave their post up perhaps 'guest' is the default when there is no longer a registered user name to associate with it anymore? That post looks like pure HB to me.

[PVish]

The PAMB will not allow guest posts. . . . That post looks like pure HB to me.

If he is indeed still around, why are his books no longer available in the PA store but they are still listed on Amazon?

The plot thickens. We can only watch to see what will happen next. But a watched plot never boils. Or something.

[Lady of Prose]

Unfortunately, getting your release does not guarantee that your books are removed from all the e-book stores. Quite to the contrary, according to some who have been released, this is something that is almost impossible to accomplish.

If you write to B&N and Amazon, sending copy of release, it may happen for those sites. But from what I, personally, have seen out there-there are far more online stores with PA books available than one knows about. I've counted 20 for myself.

[James D. Macdonald]

Maybe he quit smoking?

[Dawno]

Maybe he quit smoking?

Well that's the only thing HB and I have in common if it's true. Down to 5 a day and working on how to give those up now.

[Lady of Prose]

Maybe he quit smoking?


You talking about nicotine, or the medicinal stuff?:)

[Banned-Aide]

Maybe he quit smoking?

Now THAT is funny!!! Good one.

BA

[PVish]

Even on his last official posting, a plea for a Michigan book signing in August (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=3793), he's now "Guest." Kind of pathetic that no one responded to that post.

Mr. PA has lost his identity. Is the Pirate ship sinking? Or has it been refitted into a cruise ship (non-smoking, of course)?

[book_maven]

Ever since Lynn Barry came back (apparently de-banned), he has become a ghost. And it looks like management finally recognized that. Lynn now appears to be the unofficial cheerleader, and she's a more effective one.

By the way, whatever happened to the "200 Authors" guy and that book?

[RainBrain]

Now, i sent in a few short stories to this company via email. i received an email back from them saying this:

------------------------------
Dear (ME):

Thank you for your submission of Short Stories to PublishAmerica.

This work does not currently fit our requirements. We are currently closed to children's picture book submissions, and to single short stories. We do, however, publish compilations of short stories. If you have more material please resubmit. Please do not take this a setback to all your hard work as a writer. We are sure you will find a publisher to fit your needs.


We wish you the best of luck.

Sincerely,
Acquisitions Department
PublishAmerica

----------------------------------------------

now, i was expecting this rejection anyway because the stories i sent were stories i did when i was taking time off from the other novel i was working on. i did it halfheartedly.

now, i was a little confused by something they said in their email. he said that if i had "more material" i should resubmit

so i sent him back an email requesting that he please be honest with me and tell me whether or not he liked the stories. i asked if he "really" wanted me to resubmit more stories based on what he's read so far.

then he replied back to me and said "the more i write" the "better i get" so i should consider resending them my materials if i have more.


what do you guys think? is this guy trying not to hurt my feelings? in the email i sent back to him i specifically pleaded he be brutally honest. i cant find the email he sent back to me exactly which is why i'm paraphrasing his words in quotes.

[scfirenice]

Oh my god, I think you just missed being hit by a meteor. Missed being eaten by a shark. Missed...well you get my point. You should do some research on PA, there are several very good threads dedicated to them on this board. You should also count your lucky stars you got that rejection!!!! You are now free to find a legit publisher.
S

[Medievalist]

Publish America isn't a real publisher; it's a scam.

They will accept and publish anything, if it won't cost them too much to print, and if it's long enough that the binding machinery can handle it.

They don't edit; they don't even proof read. You'll be lucky if you get ten bookstores, worldwide, to stock the book since it will look like crap and won't be returnable if it doesn't sell. (Accepting returned unsold books the standard for legitimate publishers. )

Plus, the book costs at least five dollars more than a similar book from a legitimate publisher.

PublishAmerica exists, and makes its money, by persuading authors to buy copies of their own books.

Read this (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10211).

PublishAmerica will take your money (you'll even have to pay for registering copyright--no real publisher does that!) and break your heart.

[Cabinscribe]

Oh my god, I think you just missed being hit by a meteor. Missed being eaten by a shark. Missed...well you get my point.


This might be a good time for you to buy a lottery ticket!

:)

[Richard]

The longer your book is, the higher the resulting price they can ream you for will be. It's not worth revving even the Print on Demand presses for something short, and the astronomical price becomes impossible to ignore when that happens.

[triceretops]

Rainbran--this is all good advice here. Compile a good short story collection and head right for the agents or houses that handle such material. There aren't many who do, but fa' gawd's sake, check them out first and exhaust all efforts in that direction before you fall prey to a POD or vanity outfit.

Triceratops

[TemlynWriting]

As Medievalist mentioned above, there are many threads with information concerning PA here. Check out the Bewares and Background Check (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=22) board, as well as these threads:

Condensed: Here are the Reasons We Don't Recommend PublishAmerica (http://showthread.php?t=10211)

The Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America) (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=524) (Also known as the NEPAT thread)

PA's Nonexclusive Contract Amendment/New Release Agreement (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11281)

Indexing the Big PublishAmerica Thread (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=526) (This is an older thread; I'm not sure how updated it is compared to the rest.)

Hope this helps!

[SLake]

Rejected by Publish America! -- someone in this column said 'time you bought a lottery ticket' how true, hehe! Someone else said PA is a scam.

Around the Net and here, there is a lot of information about Publish America. EG, a group of writers got together, wrote up a load of claptrap (that's about what they claimed) then submitted it to PA and even it was accepted.

I think PA would probably have more success if it straight out said it was a vanity publisher. There are many publishers out there who are up-front with that information, so those who are honest about being vanity are willing listed among publisher pages on the Net.

[RainBrain]

wow. thanks guys. i was suspecting something was wrong when i didn't see anyone on here talk about Publish America. i figured if they were as glossy as their webpage made them seem them everyone should be publishing books and talking good about them.

thanks again guys.

but a another question though. is 20,000 words of combined short stories enough to start query agents and publishers for?

[Medievalist]

I think PA would probably have more success if it straight out said it was a vanity publisher. There are many publishers out there who are up-front with that information, so those who are honest about being vanity are willing listed among publisher pages on the Net.

I'm not even sure I'd call PublisheAmerica a vanity press/publisher. Most of the vanity published books I've seen have had decent production values--PublisheAmerica books don't.

I'm tempted to call them a jobber; they solicit print run work from people, and function as a middle man, or broker, between the customer and the printer, and charge a hefty fee for it.

[Button]

Rainbrain,

My recommendation is to read books on writing. I'm sure you've got a lot of questions one good book could easily answer.

To answer your question though, a book of short stories is generally 250-350 pages long if not longer. You're talking at least 60,000 words. 20,000 is a good head start though. Keep it up!

[Greer]

Most short-story collections, especially first collections, are 200-250 pages. Be forewarned, though, it is EXTREMELY rare for a first-time author to publish short story collections without having published a number of the individual pieces in literary journals or one of the stories having won some major prize (O. Henry Award, Best American, Pushcart, all of which are awarded to stories published in journals) or the collection itself winning a prize (several universities have competitions for unpublished collections that award money and publication). In fact, I can't think of any recent collections that don't fit these criteria.

This is not to say give up the idea of writing a collection or trying to market it -- just be prepared. And send those individual stories out to literary journals (after doing research to target your submissions) in the meanwhile.

Best of luck and stick with it. We need more good short story collections.

[Birol]

I'm going to move this to TIO and combine it with the NEPAT overflow thread.

[allenparker]

Just a little spring cleaning, yes.

It's spring there now? I thought your area didn't get spring till 5 PM on August 13. Of course, I was told that summer was from 6:30 to 7:45. I must have been wrong.:-)

Allen

[Birol]

Merged the besmirched thread with this one.

[AnneMarble]

I didn't want to post this on the regular thread, but just had to post it. ;)

In the meantime, feel free to copy all the email addresses posted within the PA listing on the P&E site. If you know of others that I don't have yet, please let me know of those so PA can receive all the email they can possibly handle. Who knows, maybe they'll open up PublishNigeria next? ;)
:rofl:
Or maybe their email program will combust, and they will accidentally end up publishing a book about a Nigerian widow who became addicted to on-line bingo and then used multilevel marketing to sell prescription drugs and fake Rolexes while renting apartments in Brazil and playing in international lotteries.

[Dawno]

But, Anne, I'd read *that* book - I bet other people would too!! I can imagine it if David Sedaris wrote it. Then how it would be if Tom Wolfe took a stab. OOOH, Grisham could turn it into a courtroom drama and Clancy into an international thriller.

[PA Sock Puppit]

Hello authors. I am here to invite you to submit your manuscripts to the new publishing firm I work for that is going to revolutionize the publishing world and turn it on it's ear!
My bosses, Milyan Weeners and Barry Crapper, have learnt from their experiences in the publishing world that they want to make a million bucks at your expense, so they are offering you the priviledge of being your publisher.

PunishAnybody is located in a dark corner of a little suburb. We don't even have an address. But that's ok because we don't want you writing or visiting us anyway. Especially visiting! Don't do it.

We will email you. Our staff has compiled an assortment of form letters for every occassion. Go ahead, ask us something - we will have a form letter we can send you.

You can also visit our website on the internet. If it looks like it was designed by third graders, that's because it was. We here at PunishAnybody are always willing to cut corners where you, the author, are concerned. From our crappy copied documents to our cheesy website, we won't waste a buck more on you than we need to.

What's that you say? You can't spell or punctuate? You over-use ellipses? NO PROBLEM! If our editors get around to it, they'll run your manuscript through spell checker.

If all of this hasn't sold you on PunishAnybody, we will also offer you, for a nominal fee, our handy manual on how to sell your books, because we sure won't do it for you. You'll learn such nifty tricks as:
* Selling your books from the back of your van
*Begging and annoying bookstore owners
*Spending a fortune on useless crap with your book info on it.
*making your friends and relatives bug everyone they know to buy your book

And more! Plus you can read our useless tome about how great we are, because we love to brag about ourselves. We hope you will brag about us, too.

Come on aboard the PunishAnybody author mill, where our motto is " We make money so you can't!"

Sincerely,
InfoSatan

[MacAllister]

:ROFL:

[Sara Rachael Hope]

:ROFL: :Clap:
:idea: 111 East Church Street, Frederick, Maryland 21705 isn't a legal address it seems...:Ssh: .

[PA Sock Puppit]

Go ahead and laugh. You can laugh at us now, but we are laughing all the way to the bank. This is the greatest get-rich-quick, er, I mean publishing idea EVER!

Not only that, but we are telling people, because we have it on good authority, that we may possibly be taken seriously at some point in the distant future. You didn't get that email because you haven't jumped on board our fast moving train to publishing world domination. And that's what we're doing - taking over the publishing world, several hundred authors at a time.

Therefore, you need to treat us with the respect we deserve, dammit! We are offering people the chance of a lifetime to have thier books in print so they can take up bandwidth on amazon.
Oh Miss Smarty pants, we do so have a legal address. We just don't want anyone else to know what it is.

[robeiae]

When Alexander saw the breadth of his domain, he wept for there were no more worlds to conquer.

Rob :)

[PA Sock Puppit]

Yeah, well, that Alexander dude is our marketing model.

[James D. Macdonald]

08-16-2005, 08:58 AM
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I'm not sure if this forum is the right place to talk about Amazon's reviews of "How to Upset a Goliath". If not, does anybody know a more appropriate place?

I've been experiencing a great deal of frustration on this issue. My reviews are systematically deleted. I've been exchanging emails with Amazon, but I find their replies more and more unsatisfactory.

Is Amazon supporting PublishAmerica? I'm considering writing to consumer affairs. At least, nobody can say I'm not a consumer when it comes to Amazon, even if I don't count as a consumer with PA.

Interestingly, every single negative review has been removed, and for the past few days there is only the original five-star review, that has been there since mid-July. In the past week, the ratings of "How to Upset a Goliath" have shot up, from over 1,000,000 to 390,574.

I think this book is a problem, because it could easily convince naive authors into giving their book to PublishAmerica.

[James D. Macdonald]

8-16-2005, 12:37 PM [/url] [url="member.php?u=3927"]PA Sock Puppit (showpost.php?p=297307&postcount=23308) vbmenu_register("postmenu_297307", true);
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Due to no fault of our own, we do accept subpoenas.

[James D. Macdonald]

8-16-2005, 12:39 PM [/url]
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-------------------

Amusing though this is in its own thread, this probably isn't the best place for sock puppiting.

[James D. Macdonald]

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================

But there is a valid point under that humor, Richard. PA may be saying, loud and long, that they ignore all these things, but we don't know that it's true, and even if it is, there are some things they can't ignore.

[James D. Macdonald]

08-16-2005, 02:14 PM [/url] [url="member.php?u=10"]James D. Macdonald (showpost.php?p=297380&postcount=23312) vbmenu_register("postmenu_297380", true);
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I'm not sure if this forum is the right place to talk about Amazon's reviews of "How to Upset a Goliath". If not, does anybody know a more appropriate place?


I've been moving discussion of Amazon Reviews to the NEPAT Overflow topic in TIO (Take It Outside).

[James D. Macdonald]

08-16-2005, 02:58 PM [/url] [url="member.php?u=10"]James D. Macdonald (showpost.php?p=297427&postcount=23314) vbmenu_register("postmenu_297427", true);
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=================

Of course they accepted your book. That's what they do. But you wouldn't see it in print for up to a year.



I am considering, after much research, submitting my ms to Infinity.

Why? This isn't the right topic (there are a couple of Self Publishing groups a bit downstream), but have you considered Lulu? You could have your book out by later this afternoon, at no up front cost to you.

[James D. Macdonald]

8-16-2005, 03:00 PM [/url] [url="member.php?u=1279"]PVish (showpost.php?p=297430&postcount=23315) vbmenu_register("postmenu_297430", true);
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I am considering, after much research, submitting my ms to Infinity. I know they charge but for what they offer, compared to what the others do, I think this is the best route. My main concern is timing... my work addresses a current hot topic of debate and I need it out yesterday. I believe that a traditional publisher might pick it up after release but my issue is time right now. Infinity, while they do use Ingram for distribution to the major online markets, also has in-house printing, ability to get my book out in 60-90 days, and has a good reputation from what I have seen.
Any input would be greatly appreciated.
Epicman

I have used Infinity. They are good to work with. They do what they say they will do (unlike PA) and you do get books within 8-10 weeks. A couple of shops have ordered my books directly from them with no problem. Their toll-free number is a plus—and a real live person (usually Michelle) always answers the phone. If I email a question, I get a reply back within 12 hours—sometimes sooner.

If you're writing for a niche or local market or writing material with a limited shelf-life, POD can work. (If you want to write a blockbuster, POD won't work.) If POD is what you want to do, then Infinity is a good choice. Their books are reasonably priced. Since their price per copy is based on the number of pages, keeping your font size smaller (11 point or maybe even 10 point) and choosing a readable font will keep you book price down. With Infinity, you get to make a lot more design choices than with other PODs.

POD beats PA any day!

[James D. Macdonald]

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Infinity are still rather expensive for what they actually do... Go take a look at www.diggorypress.com (http://www.diggorypress.com/) - they are partnered with Ingram AND also with UK distibutors and have much cheaper copy prices and higher royalties than I have seen anywhere else (including LULU) with much less finance up front...and you'll get your book much quicker...I got mine in 8 days from me paying them and it looks excellent. Within 2 weeks it was on amazon......

[James D. Macdonald]

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I've been moving discussion of Amazon Reviews to the NEPAT Overflow topic in TIO (Take It Outside).

I searched through NEPAT for Amazon reviews of Meiners' book, and maybe I've been getting too obsessed with the idea that Amazon is in cahoots with PA.

I read a comment in NEPAT saying that Amazon has been sued for negative reviews in the past, so maybe they delete anything that could get them into trouble with an author or publisher.

I'm wondering if they have some sort of policy, such as deleting any review if somebody complains about it, or if they really are supporting PA, or if PA has threatened them. Maybe I should start a special thread about this topic in TIO?

[James D. Macdonald]

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:ROFL: Due to no fault of our own, we do accept subpoenas.
Please excuse me but :roll: .
Now I can sleep well tonight!
Thanks!

[James D. Macdonald]

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-----------------




I just received an answer from Amazon telling me that my review was deleted because it was spiteful. It makes me feel like throwing up. It feels like being bashed on the head and then kicked in the stomach too.

[James D. Macdonald]

Yesterday, 08:58 PM [/url] [url="member.php?u=2459"]Jean Marie (showpost.php?p=298776&postcount=23318) vbmenu_register("postmenu_298776", true);
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================

I just received an answer from Amazon telling me that my review was deleted because it was spiteful. It makes me feel like throwing up. It feels like being bashed on the head and then kicked in the stomach too.


Kind of like how you feel after Infocenter reprimands you. On the other hand, Amazon has a busy schedule monitoring all the reviews. That includes the negative reviews a number of pa authors received on a regular basis. More than likely, Infocenter #2's job is to keep their eyes pinned to weener's book on Amazon. When they see a correct review, they hit auto which zaps off a complaint to Amazon. And you wonder why they don't have enough to pay royalties??? Can you imagine how many Infocenters they go through in a month:ROFL:

[James D. Macdonald]

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This is from amazon - my review is last. TEEHEE!
Customer Reviews
Average Customer Review: http://g-images.amazon.com/images/G/01/x-locale/common/customer-reviews/stars-2-5.gif
Write an online review (http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/write-a-review.html/002-5661812-5641604?%5Fencoding=UTF8&asin=1413790968&store=books) and share your thoughts with other customers.

http://g-images.amazon.com/images/G/01/x-locale/common/customer-reviews/stars-1-0.gifEnglish Translation, August 17, 2005
Reviewer:E. Bruce (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/cm/member-glance/-/A2ZXR254QHLFMH/1/ref=cm_cr_auth/002-5661812-5641604?%5Fencoding=UTF8) (Essex, United Kingdom) -
http://g-images.amazon.com/images/G/01/x-locale/communities/reputation/c7y_badge_rn_1.gif (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/browse/-/14279681/pop-up/ref=cm_rn_bdg_help/002-5661812-5641604#RN) Since the author of this book appears to have only a passing acquaintance with the English language and is a total stranger to the truth, allow me to translate the Meiners mumbo-jumbo -

"Knowing a little bit about psychology and how patriotic people can be, I set up a vanity publishing company called PublishAmerica and based it in Maryland, USA, a safe haven for white collar criminals. Knowing from experience how difficult it can be to have a bad book accepted by a good publisher, I decided to publish almost anything, regardless of quality. I pretended to be a "traditional" publisher by telling writers they would be paid and their books would be on bookstore shelves. I set up the PublishAmerica website, filling it with lies and half-truths. I've since been inundated by manuscripts most of them bad even by my standards, so I tied the authors into a dodgy but airtight seven-year contract and priced their books out of the marketplace, ensuring that they will almost without exception be buying their own books from my company. If an upstart author suggests selling books through normal channels I make them grovel to have their rights returned - provided they sign a gagging agreement. That's it in a nutshell suckers...em...readers."

Message? Real authors use real publishers. Vanity press PublishAmerica is an expensive road to nowhere. Money should flow towards the author, not the other way round.


Was this review helpful to you?




6 of 6 people found the following review helpful:

http://g-images.amazon.com/images/G/01/x-locale/common/customer-reviews/stars-1-0.gifRubbish, August 17, 2005
Reviewer:Epicman (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/cm/member-glance/-/A2NCXPNMCGEV6/1/ref=cm_cr_auth/002-5661812-5641604?%5Fencoding=UTF8) - As an aspiring author, I almost fell for this crook's scam. Simply do a Google search for "publishamerica" if you want the real story of Willem Meiners and his stooges. They will all be in prison soon for their deceptive practices. They dash aspiring authors' hopes and dreams against the rocks - for 7 years! Talk to those people who gave their praise to Mr. Meiners BEFORE their books were published today now that they are stuck with a poorly produced over-priced book. The book is full of lies, deception, and is just general rubbish - unless you want to really get inside the mind of a crook.

Was this review helpful to you?

[James D. Macdonald]

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===================

The above are reviews on amazon for Meiner's book.

Epicman

[DaveKuzminski]

Epicman (http://member.php/?u=3881)
"Knowing a little bit about psychology and how patriotic people can be, I set up a vanity publishing company called PublishAmerica and based it in Maryland, USA, a safe haven for white collar criminals. Knowing from experience how difficult it can be to have a bad book accepted by a good publisher, I decided to publish almost anything, regardless of quality. I pretended to be a "traditional" publisher by telling writers they would be paid and their books would be on bookstore shelves. I set up the PublishAmerica website, filling it with lies and half-truths. I've since been inundated by manuscripts most of them bad even by my standards, so I tied the authors into a dodgy but airtight seven-year contract and priced their books out of the marketplace, ensuring that they will almost without exception be buying their own books from my company. If an upstart author suggests selling books through normal channels I make them grovel to have their rights returned - provided they sign a gagging agreement. That's it in a nutshell suckers...em...readers."

What I've quoted above from Epicman's review doesn't truly do justice to what Clopper, Meiners, and Prather have done. In fact, it's a shame that the RICO act hasn't been thrown at them yet since they have admitted in numerous statements to the press and others about how they deliberately chose to describe their company as "traditional" in order to set it apart from the vanity presses. Right there, they've admitted fraud because they know they're a type of vanity press, but they're trying to disguise themselves as a commercial publisher and thus fool many authors into signing with them and then convincing them to purchase their own books through further subtle deception in the futile attempt to get their books into the hands of readers.

So, what are the authorities waiting for? Evidence? I doubt that since it's already out there in droves. That leaves me with only one conclusion. The authorities don't feel any pressure.

What to do? What to do? There's still plenty we can do. Put up as many web sites as you can. Take advantage of the free web site offers and create brief informative pages describing what PA did to you and then post the names of the authorities in Maryland who refuse to take action. Make it so that anyone looking up information on the State of Maryland finds your sites first. Embarrass their leadership because they haven't taken legal action against a fraudulent activity within their borders.

Post also the names of the PA executives and staff. Maybe we can do some gang intervention and convince some of those staff members to leave. PA can't function without someone to transfer the manuscripts into files for the printer to print. Nor can it function without someone to create the cover illustrations. Nor can it function without someone to take all the calls and monitor their boards and others for complaints by their authors. When PA can't function, it can't swindle innocent authors.

[James D. Macdonald]

The Never Ending Publish America Thread (NEPAT) is closing in on a thousand pages.

There are a lot of historical reasons why that happened -- one of them being that for a long time it was the only PA thread allowed at AW, so it took everything -- the socializing, the humor, the reports of What's Up in PA Land -- all mixed together.

What I'd like to do is make that thread a resource that we can point newspaper reporters, criminal investigators, and concerned newbies who are wondering "What's up with PA?" to, without having them wade through twenty pages of off-topic chitchat.

I'm arbitrary about what I move, but I promise you that when I move things it's because I feel it's necessary to keep the topic meaty.

One of these days Real Soon Now I'm going to go in and start deleting off-topic back posts, from the day we moved to the new board, to the day I took over moderating that thread. Not to worry about their being lost forever -- those posts are archived, in context, here:

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15246&page=1&pp=25

[MacAllister]

Ah--and the PA royalty period is close upon us, too. That's always good for bringing in a bunch of disoriented, hurt and angry refugees.

Thanks in advance, y'all, for helping Jim as much as possible with keeping the NEPAT on-task. :)

[PA Sock Puppit]

Here is my glorious review of this marvelous book:



http://g-images.amazon.com/images/G/01/x-locale/common/customer-reviews/stars-3-0.gifFlatulatingly good!, August 18, 2005
Reviewer:Susan B. Sokpuppette (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/cm/member-glance/-/A2DC9BUFEEP54Y/1/ref=cm_cr_auth/002-1485777-9698436?%5Fencoding=UTF8) (De Nile) - See all my reviews (http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A2DC9BUFEEP54Y/ref=cm_cr_auth/002-1485777-9698436?%5Fencoding=UTF8)tHIS MAN IS A GENIUS!He would put any multi-level marketing firm to shame. He's come up with a concept to wipe out the oppression of the old main stream publisher and replace it with a literary free for all.
My sole complaint with this telling masterpiece is the blatant display of male genitalia on the cover. The writing below it draws the reader's attention right THERE to his twig and berries, and with the American flag flying in the background, it seemed to me a tad disrespectful.
Other than that, if you are a copy editor or the owner of a mainstream publishing firm, take notice! You are now aware that your days may be numbered due to this innovative company.

[astonwest]

I see you're from Egypt...

:)

[James D. Macdonald]

Up in the NEPAT, Ann suggested holding a protest against PA in front of the Statehouse in Annapolis.

I think that's a great idea.

What you'd need:

Someone local to MD with con-running experience. This person would arrange for a venue, the date, and the time. This person doesn't need to be a PA author.

Publicity.

Anyway ... it could be based on the last PA convention, with presentations by authors and editors, and substituting a trip to Annapolis for the trip to Gettysburg.

The organizer could get blocks of hotel rooms at a group rate, in the typical convention fashion.

They could have a mass booksigning out of the trunks of their cars in the parking lot.

They could have a masquerade, where people are encouraged to dress up as Larry Clopper, Willem Meiners, and Miranda Prather.

Folks could dress as security guards and hang around the presentation rooms.

There could be a mac-and-cheese banquet!

You'd need to get the word to PA authors. PA has their own mailing list, of course, but you could probably put together a mailing list from the folks who have web pages, and encourage them to inform other PA authors.

This is doable, but requires someone with convention-running experience on the ground.

Hey, it could be an annual event! It could continue even after Larry and Miranda are in jail and Willem's been deported!

Who will bell that cat?

[Banned-Aide]

[QUOTE=PA Sock Puppit]Here is my glorious review of this marvelous book:
it draws the reader's attention right THERE to his twig and berries,

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks for the laugh Mr. Puppit

BA

[PA Sock Puppit]

Banned-Aide, I'm pleased that you enjoyed my review. Thankfully for everyone involved, I have given an indepth analysis of the cover art on Mr. Weeners' book in the "Ask me" thread.

[PA Sock Puppit]

How sadly pathetic! Meiners has managed again to get all reviews except for one lap dog post removed from Amazon again. Whatcha afraid of Wille? Oh I forgot, it's your mission in life to hide the truth.

Hmmpppp! My review was positive, too, but please do try to obliterate the fact that you have a penis on the cover of your book. Yeah, removing my review will definitely remove any chance of people noticing that. :crazy:

[DaveKuzminski]

Well, what you do in a situation like this is enlist the assistance of other groups that are opposed to such displays of "art" on the covers of books by publishers claiming to be "Christian-based". Let them battle Meiners. Who knows? They might even have more pull with the Md AG.

[Aconite]

When Amazon has replied to reviewers of M's book to explain why they deleted negative reviews, they've said it was because the reviews focused on the man or the company instead of the book. So, how about some negative reviews that focus on the book? Refutations of the bad logic, highlights of factual and logical errors, examples of terrible writing--none of these should be hard to come by. Get on the signup sheet for the copy Jenna's passing around, write your one-starred review, and see what happens.

[Christine N.]

That's been done, and all of them were deleted. I just got tired of writing reviews. I think I wrote about wooden prose, bad sentence construction and misinformation.

Deleted.

[Aconite]

I think I wrote about wooden prose, bad sentence construction and misinformation.

Deleted.
Sorry to hear that. Doesn't speak well of Amazon, does it?

[Sheryl Nantus]

I've never been a big believer in the power of Amazon reviews - usually they're posted by family and friends and always five star reviews that spew about how great the book is.

I'll take a three or four star review more seriously because then I know it's more honest.

[JennaGlatzer]

It shocks me that Amazon would remove all those reviews. Sure, the over-the-top ones, but the ones that actually dissect the book? There should be no reason on earth to delete them. I'll write one review when I'm done reading (soon), but I won't beat my head against a wall to try to get it to stay there.

[Dawno]

How much ibuprofen do you have to consume to actually read his book?

[Gravity]

What's really weird is the Great Willie, master of his vast domain, even after deleting all the reviews still can't manage to get more than one lapdog to give him a five-star attaboy. Hell's bells, my poor little PA book did better than that, and nobody knows me!

[James D. Macdonald]

So post your review on your own web page. Link to other people's reviews. That's fast, easy, within your power, and far more effective than a dozen Amazon reviews.

[PA Sock Puppit]

Yes, we are quite disappointed with our authors, especially since we gave some of them that book for FREE with their shipments of books that they paid for. When have you ever known PA to give something for free without expecting a future return?

The answer is never, because we always expect something in the end and these ^&$%$ authors didn't come through for us. Does the book SUCK that bad?

[James D. Macdonald]

I'm about to move in a bunch of messages from the small kerfluffle this last weekend.

What's coming in are all messages that had been deleted by someone other than the poster him/herself.

[James D. Macdonald]

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==============

I'm from Yorkshire. I'll get the roses ready ;-)

[James D. Macdonald]

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----------------

Okay, everyone reading, flip those last two posts around ;-) War of the Roses reference.

[James D. Macdonald]

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=============

Why are you (you meaning members of this forum) so defensive? Why do you automatically assume that the person replying immediately beneath your post is replying to your post. I hadn't even read the post immediately above my last post (it was probably being typed at the same time as my own post.)

You're all so touchy and paranoid. Someone even suggested that I was not an author but a PA employee! If the ground around here is shaking, it isn't me stamping my feet.

Shelagh Watkins author "Mr. Planemaker's Flying Machine"

No... It's you flapping your mouth.

[James D. Macdonald]

Yesterday, 01:40 PM [/url]
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Thank you OneTeamOne Dream although it isn't noble at all. This entire thread proves that I'm not giving away much. In fact, because I knew that I would be making a very small amount of money, it was an easy decision to make. It probably has more to do with making me feel good about myself than raising enormous amounts of money for charity. I could raise more by parachuting out of a plane instead of writing a book about one. We all do the things we want to do and then try to justify our actions instead of being honest and admitting that we do have egos.

Shelagh Watkins author "Mr. Planemaker's Flying Machine"

[James D. Macdonald]

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-------------------

Let us not turn this discussion into a "slamming" session such as is normally seen on the PA Boards. We are, I hope, all adults here, even if we need a virtual hot tub:).

BA, I apologized to Shelagh for thinking that it was the babies that died and not her brother. That was all. My first comment stands in that e-mail - namely enough is enough!

I sincerely hope a moderator will soon step in and remove all of these vitriolic threads which have nothing to do with PA and are simply feeding Shelagh's problem, whatever it is. This forum is about PA and I think a lot of these posts are more appropriate to the Take It Outside Board. They are certainly not educating anyone, particularly her, and speaking for myself, I find them tiresome and would like to move on to the real problem - PublishAmerica.

Help, someone, I am sure we all agree on this, except maybe Shelagh:).

postshy/Roberta

[James D. Macdonald]

Yesterday, 02:38 PM [/url] [url="member.php?u=1102"]Sparhawk (showpost.php?p=302192&postcount=23522) vbmenu_register("postmenu_302192", true);
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=============

Consider myself "Moderated".. "Ouch!" :flag: :banana:

[James D. Macdonald]

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===================

Why does everyone want me to leave?

You all ask questions and when I answer them you collate my answers and accuse me of advertising my book!

You don't seem to have much self-awareness. Everyone is getting at you? Get real! 99.9% of the members posting on this thread are in total agreement about PA. How can one person gang up on the rest of you. It's absurd. You're all paranoid and feed off each other.

Without me there wouldn't be a discussion.

Shelagh Watkins author "Mr. Planemaker's Flying Machine"

[James D. Macdonald]

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----------------------

Jenna, please forgive me for stepping on the "No posting" request.

Shelagh, AW is much more than this thread. If you are not intersted in the discussion here, look around at other sites. AW has something of great value to any author, PA or otherwise.

I am a PA author. I disagree with some of the statements made here, but agree with others. But I do not let this stand in the way of gleaning some very good information from the people that have gone before me. People like Dave, Jim, and Jenna have a wealth of experience that is more evident in their other posts in places like "Writing Novels" and "Humor."

Please join us in those areas if you are not happy with this area.

Allen

[James D. Macdonald]

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===============

[QUOTE=shelagh watkins]

If you value your vendetta against PA more highly than you value my book and refuse to buy it because it costs more than a cheap, throw-away paperback, then I really don't want you to buy my book.[QUOTE]

I don't think the people here are saying they won't buy your book online because it is from PA, but more likely because it is online. We have had this discussion before and most of us here don't buy many books online and there are more than a few who don't buy any. I know if I had read part of a book from PA and liked it very much I would buy it, but not online. I want that book in my hand, want to browse through it and have the instant gratification of being able to read it then and there. I can't do that with books online. I will never buy books online even from the big name writers.

[James D. Macdonald]

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-----------------------

Formal request: Stop responding to Shelagh. She's twisting everything you say and isn't listening anyway...

I noticed.
I never did get an answer to my question about the computer analogy (garbage in, garbage out).

Such is life...

[James D. Macdonald]

Yesterday, 05:24 PM [/url] [url="member.php?u=4011"]shelagh watkins (showpost.php?p=302402&postcount=23538) vbmenu_register("postmenu_302402", true);
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------------------

Thanks, all! I'd like to officially be done beating this dead horse now.

Formal request: Stop responding to Shelagh. She's twisting everything you say and isn't listening anyway. If she ever starts listening, great. Meanwhile, let's move on.



Jenna,
You've actually made a formal request to ignore me on this thread. You're bullying me off this thread and inviting me to post on the other boards.

"Nobody has asked you to leave" ...but if you stay on this thread no-one will reply to any of your posts.

Forum members are still making demands that I should answer their questions about my book (and if I do, I'm advertising!) You are making a request that they should not respond to me while they are complaining that I don't respond to them.

But, of course, I'm perfectly welcome on the forum (provided I don't post here!)

Shelagh Watkins author Mr. Planemaker's Flying Machine

[James D. Macdonald]

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==============


As my generation learned during the Viet Nam conflict, "You must actively engage and participate in the system - to change the system." It is inevitable that the members of AW and other forums will state, "We saw a wrong and tried to right it - We came, we saw, we conquered."

Argile Stox
..but you mustn't allow anyone to participate in your sytem. That would never do.

Shelagh Watkins author Mr. Planemaker's Flying Machine

[Lady of Prose]

How sadly pathetic! Meiners has managed again to get all reviews except for one lap dog post removed from Amazon again. :crazy:

I don't think it's Meiners doing it. I think it's the lady herself doing the dirty work. I think she hits the report button and then emails them. I used to have respect for her, and thought she would eventually see the truth. But am really starting to wonder.

[Lady of Prose]

[QUOTE=Aconite] So, how about some negative reviews that focus on the book? Refutations of the bad logic, highlights of factual and logical errors, examples of terrible writing--none of these should be hard to come by. QUOTE]

I did exactly that -- "Carol" did the reviews. I knew what I was talking about too! And it was removed anyway. I attempted 3 valid and thought out reviews and they were removed. So I just stopped. What's the point, with as much power as the main pro-reviewer has, it would be a waste of energy.

[James D. Macdonald]

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-----------------

I
Shelagh, I've also had a young fan contact me...the book's not even out yet, and he lives 2000 miles from me. Still don't know how that happened, I hope to have more once the book is out, and hopefully I will, since I know it will be on shelves in lots of bookstores.


Well isn't that just dandy.

[James D. Macdonald]

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===============

Well, credit where credit is due. That's the first time since I started posting on this board that my posts have been answered without antagonistic replies. Just differences of opinion. Now, I can handle that.

Cheers,
Shelagh

[James D. Macdonald]

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----------------------

Well, credit where credit is due. That's the first time since I started posting on this board that my posts have been answered without antagonistic replies. Just differences of opinion. Now, I can handle that.

Cheers,
Shelagh

I take exception to that.

[James D. Macdonald]

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===================

Shelagh said: That's the first time since I started posting on this board that my posts have been answered without antagonistic replies.

If that ain't bait I don't know what is. Let it go, hook, line and sinker.

Dee

[James D. Macdonald]

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====================

I hear the message load and clear.That's my point. You are the vociferous minority. (snipped)I'm not against you. But I'm not for you either. I'm just making sure that I'm aware of anything that you might do that will, in the long run, affect me.
Shelagh

It's a shame your only concern is for yourself. As many ex PA authors have previously stated, myself included, we're interested in helping as many as possible, not just one. I take the time to share my experience to spread the word far and wide. I'd say sea to shining sea, but, that line is already taken. PA not only hurt me, but, hundreds of others as well.

Just because I'm working on re-releasing my 1st book as well as a 2nd one, does not mean I won't take the time to help in this mission. Anything I can do to help close the doors of PA, I will do. And may I mention, I dislike writing letters, but, I'm doing it. They've destroyed too many lives. They're stealing from authors whose contracts have been cancelled. And that's alright in your book Shelagh? If it is, wow. Not healthy to be so selfish.

[batgirl]

It shocks me that Amazon would remove all those reviews. Sure, the over-the-top ones, but the ones that actually dissect the book? There should be no reason on earth to delete them. I'll write one review when I'm done reading (soon), but I won't beat my head against a wall to try to get it to stay there.

There are still two reviews on Amazon.ca - maybe it's too small to bother with?
Here's mine:
Although this book was apparently written as little more than a promotional tool for its subject, and its target audience is most likely the approximately 12,000 authors claimed by Publish America, the truth about the publisher shines out through the cracks.
Willem Meiners' company, PublishAmerica, is known for its poor editing and cover design, mostly performed by underpaid and untrained college students, and this is true even here.
Consider the cover of this title, which should have received the highest care. Ask yourself why the look-inside feature is not enabled. This book should be its company's flagship product - and in a way, it is.
Excerpts from the book are available on the PublishAmerica website, so curious readers may see the quality of the writing for themselves. I cannot suggest that anyone purchase this book as a guide to the publishing industry, or even to find competent prose. However, it may have some clinical interest as presenting insights into a venal and manipulative corporation

Do you think it will go away now that I've drawn attention to it?
-Barbara

[Torin]

Yesterday, 04:58 PM Kevin Yarbrough (http://member.php/?u=365) vbmenu_register("postmenu_302364", true);

[QUOTE=shelagh watkins]

If you value your vendetta against PA more highly than you value my book and refuse to buy it because it costs more than a cheap, throw-away paperback, then I really don't want you to buy my book.[QUOTE]

I don't think the people here are saying they won't buy your book online because it is from PA, but more likely because it is online. --snip-- I will never buy books online even from the big name writers.

I often buy books online, either from Amazon or Barnes & Noble, when it's something I want and don't want to drive the 75 km to the nearest book store only to find it's not there. Especially now, with gas prices up to $1.15 a litre (about $4.25 a gallon). However, I will NOT buy a 200 page book for $25 or more, especially by an author I don't know. I wouldn't pay that much for a book in a book store.

[MacAllister]

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Blah blah! Put another record on.

[MacAllister]

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Originally Posted by DeePower

It seems curious to me that whenever an "event" such as royalties, an unfavorable news article, or an announcement, happens in PA land, someone comes here and posts messages that could be interpreted as soley to movitivate personal arguments and get the discussion away from PublishAmerica.



It's the events I'm interested in. New topics. New information. Anything I haven't already read that adds to the discussion. I don't want more of the same.

__________________________________________________ ____________

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Originally Posted by shelagh watkins
It's the events I'm interested in. New topics. New information. Anything I haven't already read that adds to the discussion. I don't want more of the same.

Shelagh



Well, we'll just have to inform Jenna Glatzer that YOU are not happy, God forbid. You are not adding to the discussion with your posts or your sarcastic drivel. We know what you're about and we're all getting tired of your game. Why don't you start a book signing at a hair salon or something, or run around and harass some bookstore managers.. That's what you guys do best.

Bottom line, it is you who add NOTHING to the conversation except your poor attempts at sarcasm and humor. You're happy with PA and we're happy for you. Now go find a hair salon or flea market to pedal your wares. Better yet call HB Marcus and book some time on vanity radio, I hear that's popular with Publish America right now.
__________________
Truth is a 3 edged sword. There's your version, my version and what actually happened. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/Emotesnoopy.gif

Friends don't let their friends write for Publish America. Be a friend and save an Author

[Gravity]

This country boy has, for one, grown heartily tired of Ms. Shelagh's taunts. I was willing to give her the benefit of the doubt, knowing she's still in her honeymoon phase (we all went through it, Lord knows). But over the last X-amount of threads her defense of PA has grown from desperation to nastiness. She's thrilled with her lot, and her printer (and why not? somebody has to take up H.B. Marcus' fallen baton). Let's leave her to it, my brothas (and sistas).

[Dawno]

*snip* She's thrilled with her lot, and her printer (and why not? somebody has to take up H.B. Marcus' fallen baton). Let's leave her to it, my brothas (and sistas).

Interesting you should mention dear departed Shemp. Things haven't been as hot on the NEPAT since his Easter 'event'

I encourage people to go visit Shelagh's forum (she posted the link and invited us). It's as eye opening as the PAMB.

[James D. Macdonald]

Faustus
Come, I think hell's a fable.
Mephistophilis
Ay, think so still, 'til experience change thy mind.

Dr. Faustus by Christopher Marlowe (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.03.0010&query=scene%3D%235&layout=norm%3Dcompare&loc=1)

Prospective PA authors might want to read the whole play to find out how their time with PA will go.

[aruna]

This country boy has, for one, grown heartily tired of Ms. Shelagh's taunts. I was willing to give her the benefit of the doubt, knowing she's still in her honeymoon phase .

Same here. Hell, I even promised to buy her book, if it ever turned up here! But no more, my friend. She lost my sympathy when she said - on athread far away from AW - that Jenna was deleting all her posts , and that yes, she would recommend PA to friends and relatives who'd written a book. That shows a brick wall too tough to penetrate. Perhaps the reality check will bring it down; till then, I'm out of it.

[Christine N.]

I think it did it for me when she told Ken (on the other forum) to just shut up.

Now THAT's rude.

[MacAllister]

Okay, folks--I know this is TIO--and I know everyone is a bit frustrated. I also understand the need to vent.

The member in question is still a member, though. Can we please refrain from the personal comments?

"I can't beat my head against this wall anymore" is one thing. Calling someone names is something else altogether.

Thanks.

[MacAllister]

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[


Originally Posted by JennaGlatzer
If you discover your personality is wrong for the business of writing (e.g., you can't stand the rejections, you're not patient enough, you hate rewriting, etc.), keep it as a hobby and forget about submitting.
What if I simply hate rejections, and certianly am not patient enough, but I still love writing? What should I do then? (This is half way smart assed, I do love writing, and do hate rejections, and hate the waiting game, but I'll never give it up)
__________________
www.1teamonedream.com (http://www.1teamonedream.com/) The site isn't finished yet, but it sure is a good start.


Remember, I'm just a guy with a computer and a story

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Originally Posted by AnnaWhite
Interesting comment. I have had PA boosters suggest that it was all my fault, when I said I had trouble selling my books.

In fact, one PA author on her honeymoon read the first chapter of my book and trashed it, telling me not to blame my publisher but myself, because my book was not worth buying.

On the other hand, she was singing the praises of PublishAmerica for giving so many people "a chance"...

Which boils down to simple logics: if you say nice things about PublishAmerica, you're a great writer. If you say nasty things about PublishAmerica, you're just a failure.

Lucia,

You are putting me in a very uncomfortable position with regard to reviewing the book you are about to post to me today.

Shelagh

__________________________________________________ ______________

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Just be honest. That's all a good review ever should be.

Even ones of PA books (or PA's owner, but that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish)

Welcome back, Memphis!
__________________
Christine

"The Talisman of Zandria" by Christine Norris coming in November 2005 by LBF Books. Visit them at www.lbfbooks.com (http://www.lbfbooks.com/)

Artwork by Robert Nagy. See it before the book comes out here: Talisman of Zandria (http://www.meltingmind.net/id95.html)

A website in progress: www.freewebs.com/christinenorris (http://www.freewebs.com/christinenorris)
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Originally Posted by OneTeamOneDream
What if I simply hate rejections, and certianly am not patient enough, but I still love writing? What should I do then? (This is half way smart assed, I do love writing, and do hate rejections, and hate the waiting game, but I'll never give it up)

Jenna very clearly said, "keep it as a hobby and forget about submitting," not "give up writing."
__________________________________________________ ______________

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Originally Posted by Christine N.
Just be honest. That's all a good review ever should be.
It's difficult under the circumstances. Lucia asked the members of the Author Forum to visit her website and offer their honest opinions and they did. I was one of the members who responded. I said I would need to read the whole book to give an honest opinion. One of the members offered the opinion quoted by Lucia, who replied: "Thanks for the fish" (Hitchhiker's Trilogy Series)

If Lucia had accepted the honest review and forgotten about it, I would feel more comfortable about giving an honest review myself. But clearly, she didn't. This makes me feel uncomfortable.

Shelagh
__________________________________________________ ______________

[MacAllister]

Shelagh--you'd probably have better luck discussing this matter with Lucia by PMing her. Then she's certain to see your message--which really is just intended for her alone anyway, right?

[AnnaWhite]

Lucia,

You are putting me in a very uncomfortable position with regard to reviewing the book you are about to post to me today
Wow! I just log on and find I'm the subject of discussion! This is horribly embarrassing.

Shelagh, don't worry about reviewing my book. I don't really need reviews, especially by anybody who may be biased, either pro or against. I didn't realise you emailed me and offered to buy my book so that you could review it.

My experience of what happened on your forum regarding the review of my book was very different from your description. I do not want to go into it, as I don't think this forum is the right place for this conversation. If you would like to talk about it, I would be grateful if you could do so by email. Since you have already sent me two emails, I'm surprised you chose this method of communicating with me.

Thank you,

[James D. Macdonald]

What if I simply hate rejections, and certainly am not patient enough, but I still love writing?

If you also want to be published -- ask a trusted friend to handle the submission part of the business and only tell you if something sells.

If it doesn't matter if you're published, just write.

[James D. Macdonald]

I emailed to say that I'd sent the book and you emailed back and said thanks about offering to help me to get onto Waterstone's database and you'd think about it.


Shelagh, I'm sure you're aware that there's a small but crucial difference between being in Waterstone's database and being in Waterstone's.

[James D. Macdonald]

Today, 09:36 AM #23669 (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=305238&postcount=23669) shelagh watkins (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/member.php?u=4011) vbmenu_register("postmenu_305238", true);
One of the Locals

Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 31

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I am a PA author who wishes to continue the discussion of reviews by PA authors. Why am I not being allowed to do so?

Shelagh

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Today, 09:41 AM

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Join Date: Mar 2005
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I am a PA author who wishes to continue the discussion of reviews by PA authors. Why am I not being allowed to do so?

Shelagh, as I PMed you (and as the moderator noted in the "reason for deletion" note of each post), the discussion is now taking place in the NEPAT Overflow thread on the Take It Outside part of the board. Why not go there to continue it?

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Today, 09:46 AM Trepanny Peck (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=305251&postcount=23671) vbmenu_register("postmenu_305251", true);
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I am a PA author who wishes to continue the discussion of reviews by PA authors. Why am I not being allowed to do so?

Shelagh

You are, but it's veering off-topic in this thread.

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Today, 09:50 AM [url="http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/member.php?u=107"]Richard (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=305258&postcount=23672) vbmenu_register("postmenu_305258", true);
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Or set up a new thread with that as the subject.

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[PA Sock Puppit]

Ah, but a caveat. This is from a post by Shelagh to Anna on Author Forum:


I can help you to get your book onto Waterstone's database but you would need to send in friends and relatives to place orders so that your book would eventually show up on the stores shelves.

[James D. Macdonald]

I'm aware... and I'm both. I'm on the database and in the store. Sorry to disappoint you.

Not disappointed a bit! Congratulations!

Waterstone's has about 200 shops. How many are you in?

[OneTeam OneDream]

Aconite (http://member.php/?u=1179) vbmenu_register("postmenu_305146", true);
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: In a cavern, in a canyon, excavating for a mine
Posts: 586





Quote:
Originally Posted by OneTeamOneDream
What if I simply hate rejections, and certianly am not patient enough, but I still love writing? What should I do then? (This is half way smart assed, I do love writing, and do hate rejections, and hate the waiting game, but I'll never give it up)


Jenna very clearly said, "keep it as a hobby and forget about submitting," not "give up writing."
__________________________________________________


I was being a smart ***. I'm not going to write if I don't submit. To me personally, that's just useless. I know others might not feel the same, but that's the way I feel. I just have to get over some of the problems I have with the industry. (Waiting being #1)

[Sheryl Nantus]

Ah, but a caveat. This is from a post by Shelagh to Anna on Author Forum:

ah, that old classic: get your family and friends to harass the manager. Of course, he'll probably want the money upfront so you're not showing a demand as this great plot insinuates, but showing the manager how many people you can trick into buying your book. Grand idea.

that's right up there with "order the book, but don't show up to pick it up - they'll have to put it on the shelves then!"

how DO these people sleep at night...

*shakes head*

[OneTeam OneDream]

If you also want to be published -- ask a trusted friend to handle the submission part of the business and only tell you if something sells.

If it doesn't matter if you're published, just write.


That's a great idea! Hey Jim....will you be my friend. Just kidding.

An idea like that is probably what would be best for me.

[James D. Macdonald]

The best way to deal with the waiting part of this business is to write something new. And something newer still after that.

[OneTeam OneDream]

The best way to deal with the waiting part of this business is to write something new. And something newer still after that.


That's where one of my biggest problems lies. I can't start on something new, I just can't do it. Everytime I go to start it (I've got the ideas and outline), I end up going back to check any agents I haven't queried, or re-reading my current ms. over and over again. There is nothing more I can add to it (at least without a publisher/editor suggestion), but I just can't get my mind off of this one. In the two months since I finished my first ms, I've written two pages of my second. As soon as an agent says "Yes", then I feel I'll be able to start on my new WIP.

[Sheryl Nantus]

I haven't visited them all yet so I wouldn't know!

ah, the classic twisting of logic - "I can't GO to every bookstore, so how can you prove I'm NOT in every bookstore?"

newsflash: your book will not be on the shelves of ANY store unless you walk in and put them either either on consignment or harass the manager into bypassing the no-return policy that dooms so many good PA books from the start. Your family and friends may walk in and order as many as they want (and pay upfront, usually) but the bookstore is not likely to order any on their own, due to the no-return policy.

maybe your local little store will stock a few copies to keep you quiet and from making a scene, but beyond that your book will receive NO distribution due to the fact that PA has NO catalog and NO return policy. Odds are most bookstores will never even HEAR of your book.

and don't get me started on this "200 Authors" project...

[James D. Macdonald]

That's where one of my biggest problems lies. I can't start on something new, I just can't do it.

OneTeam, you are not allowed to check your old manuscript, or check on agents, or even check your mailbox until you've written five pages of original prose. It doesn't have to be good -- just new.

Five pages in standard manuscript format is 1,250 words. You've probably typed more than that just on this messageboard today.

Tell me when you've got 'em.

[StoryG27]

OneTeam, you are not allowed to check your old manuscript, or check on agents, or even check your mailbox until you've written five pages of original prose. It doesn't have to be good -- just new.

Five pages in standard manuscript format is 1,250 words. You've probably typed more than that just on this messageboard today.

Tell me when you've got 'em.

Um, is there a penalty for breaking this rule?
Oh, not that I have. NO NEVER. Wouldn't dream of it.
Also, are we allowed to post here before we've written 1250 words? Again, just curious. I'm SO diligent that I'm just asking for the sake of others who might not be so disciplined.
Phew, is it getting hot in here? Or is it just me?

[Christine N.]

Who wants to call a bunch of Waterstones and see if they've got Shelagh's book on the shelf?

This is an honest experiment. Or does Waterstones (and I don't know, since I've never looked) have a place on the net where you can check to see if it's in stock on order only, like Borders?

Anybody in the UK want to take up this project? Or maybe a few people do a few stores? I'm really interested to see how it would go.

[aruna]

Christine, I did a search on their website and her book DID show up - but on Amazon! Seems they are linked up. I'll check in store tomorrow. Not that I'll feel any kind of special glow if it's NOT there. I just don't think so.

[James D. Macdonald]

I haven't visited them all yet so I wouldn't know!


I hope you'll forgive me for imagining that your book is in just one store; two at most.

Here's one way you can tell: Wait until royalties time. Not this September -- you fall into the Ninety Day Excuse window -- the royalties in February. Take the number sold with a royalty that indicates they were sold through bookshops. From that, subtract the number you know were sold to friends and family who walked in to special-order the books. (I expect you'll have a pretty fair idea how many that is.)

Take the number remaining. Divide by two. That's the number of bookshops you're in.

All this assumes that PA reports the royalties accurately, of course.

[Aconite]

Wrong! But it's more fun keeping it to myself than telling you!
*sigh* Shelagh, anyone who's been on message boards for any length of time knows not to try the "I have evidence that proves you wrong but I just won't post it" line. And not to fall for it, either. Either give evidence to back up your claims or accept that people have no reason to believe you if you don't.

[OneTeam OneDream]

OneTeam, you are not allowed to check your old manuscript, or check on agents, or even check your mailbox until you've written five pages of original prose. It doesn't have to be good -- just new.

Five pages in standard manuscript format is 1,250 words. You've probably typed more than that just on this messageboard today.

Tell me when you've got 'em.

Uncle Jim. 1260 words. Felt great, it took a weird twist that I wasn't expecting it too, and I only wrote six pages. Of course when I hit a stopping point, the first thing I did was check my email! HaHa.

I think I'll post it on Share your work later.

Thanks Uncle Jim!

[James D. Macdonald]

Good job, OneTeam!

Do it again tomorrow....

(This is related to the infamous BIC method, discussed in great detail up in the Novels board.)

[Aconite]

You think I care if people believe me or not? I'm bemused that you are all so interested!
I think you care a lot about whether people believe you or not. I think many of your comments are designed to present a certain impression to the lurkers.

[Gravity]

Old Shelagh's striking me more and more like a PA plant. NOBODY defends the indefensible (like PA) unless they have a particular dog in that fight (and I don't mean having their book printed by them). I said Iwouldn't post regarding her again (swear to your own hurt, as they old saying goes), but criminy, I'm starting to get a bad feeling here.

Like we all may have unwittingly bought tickets to the advance screening of Shemp II: The Howling.

John

[James D. Macdonald]

I love having a dialog going.

[MacAllister]

Shelagh, I'm willing to bet you love your book. I think it's important to you. I sure as h-e-double-hockey-sticks know how important my book is, to me.

Can you honestly tell me you aren't feeling niggling little stirrings of...I dunno...doubt? Or concern, even?...about what's going to happen to that book now?

Because PA owns the rights to it for the next seven years.

[Aconite]

Shelagh, I'm not saying this to be mean, just to help you understand: online listings mean little. They don't mean you're stocked in bricks-and-mortar stores, and B&M is where most sales happen. One of the anthologies I'm in is listed on Barnes and Noble online, Walmart online, and Target online, and it's never been in a single one of any of those stores, and never made a single sale from any of those sites. It's fun to see where your books are listed, but it doesn't mean much.

[OneTeam OneDream]

Shelagh, I'm not saying this to be mean, just to help you understand: online listings mean little. They don't mean you're stocked in bricks-and-mortar stores, and B&M is where most sales happen. One of the anthologies I'm in is listed on Barnes and Noble online, Walmart online, and Target online, and it's never been in a single one of any of those stores, and never made a single sale from any of those sites. It's fun to see where your books are listed, but it doesn't mean much.

This is how much having a book online means.

Amazon.com Sales Rank: None

[LloydBrown]

It's on Tesco too!

http://www.tesco.com/books/product.aspx?R=141377136X

Now, how would a plant do that?

Every single PA book is on online listings, yet they still average 71 copies per author--including author purchases. Do you still think bookstores aren't where books are sold?

[LloydBrown]

How did I get a sales ranking on amazon.co.uk of 6320 if no-one is buying my books on-line? ... Somebody must be buying my books!

A very few somebodys. And again, this is something you could have done without PublishAmerica--and kept your rights to your book, AND kept a greater percentage of each of those sales--by going with an honest POD Printer that told you up front what they were doing.

I guarantee you that the absolute best way to shut up any naysayers is to scan your royalty check when it comes in and let us see those big numbers. If you're that confident, promise it now and we'll see when those checks get mailed out.

[Gravity]

Lord. Have. Mercy.

There truly is none so blind, as he (or she) who WILL NOT see.

I'm done with it. Have fun, ya'll.

John

[LloydBrown]

Did you guys read further down that PA link somebody posted a couple of pages back? A PA'er said

"we will more than likely sell to people we know, until the book has a chance to establish itself on the market. I assume this held true for Stephen King, John Grisham and Sylvia Brown, at one time, when their books were released."

Here are the facts, as 5-10 minutes on Google gets me.

King's first book was Carrie. He sold it to Doubleday, a reputatble publisher. The hardcover copy didn't do fantastic, but Doubleday sold the paperback rights for $400,000. This happened BEFORE he sold any other books, so Carried earned that check on its own merit.

John Grisham's first novel, A Time to Kill, sold a disappointing 5,000 copies before he released The Firm and his fame exploded. That "disappointing" number, btw is about the same as PA's best-selling author of all time, Neo Franco Kantu. The 1996 movie made of Grisham's first book has earned over $150,000,000, and I imagine Grisham got a buck or two out of that deal.

Sylvia Browne (with an "e"), of course, already had a reputation before she released her first book. Regardless, just for the hat trick, her book has an Amazon ranking of about 5,000, which mean it has sold ~6,500 and probably much more--just through Amazon. Since bookstores represent at least 75% of all sales, you could calculate her first book at no less than 26,000 (even if you assume that Amazon is the only source for online sales).

I'm really surprised that, of all the hot authors to pull out of a hat, she came up with Sylvia Browne. What about Robert Ludlum, Tom Clancy, Rowlings, James Patterson, Janet Evanovich, or Danielle frikkin' Steel? I don't think Steel's had a week that she wasn't in the top 10 for the past 10 years.

[Ken Schneider]

Hi again Shelagh, Ken here.

Can you tell me what you actually are here to say. I mean, you are welcome here as far as I'm concerned. I just haven't gotten the jist of what you are saying. Okay, call me stupid I guess.

What is it that you want to say about P.A. that thrills you so much.

They broke my heart and book with how they operate. I gave it my all, and they treated me like dirt after I bought books.
I was a big supporter of theirs. Asked the folks here. I broke Jenna's heart, and was wrong to do so. I didn't know what I was talking about. I jumped on the bandwagon and said stuff that wasn't true.

Jenna, as sweet as she is, forgave me. I'm sure. I think. As you can see she lets me hang around here.

I know you want to believe in them, I did too.

I just don't want you to get your sweet Irish heart broken too.

Best to you, Ken

[Sara Rachael Hope]

Bye John

Shelagh,
Dear dear...
There's no reason to say goodbye to anyone here. Especially those who have been willing to help you help yourself. You don't seem to want to help yourself though, and you have every right not to!
Of course dear, that is your choice yet you may want to try to understand how frustrated a person (and persons in this case!) can get, attempting to convey information to a brick wall (not to be confused with a brick store, btw).
Please let us know when (and if) you receive royalites since I myself am very curious as to how much money a person can receive for being such a GREAT authoress and such a loyal PAer.
Dollars don't lie, although I can tell you from experience your royalty check (if there is one) is not accurate. PA hasn't accounted for their accounting for years!
Sorry.
Please though...don't forget to keep us 'posted'.
Thanks!

[Sheryl Nantus]

If I made that kind of promise on the 'net my husband would never forgive me. He would say: "You would sink so low to prove a point?"

Well, no actually, I wouldn't.

your husband's probably not going to forgive you when you show him how much money you spent on this printer and what you get for a royalty check.

:Shrug:

as for the "look, I've sold books online!" take a good look at all the books on YOUR shelf - I'll wager that the majority, if not all of them were bought in a bookstore that you physically walked into, flipped open the book and read a few pages and then walked to the cashier and paid for it.

online book sales just don't make up that much of the business, despite what PA will tell you - if YOU won't buy the books online, WHO do you think is?

and no, I don't count trading PA books back and forth for five-star glowing reviews on Amazon either... those reviews are worthless because it's obvious to even the most oblivious reader that they're planted and about as honest as PA's claims that you'll see your book in bookstores.

[Christine N.]

We've had the "amazon ranking" discussion..somewhere before. It only takes one or two purchase to drastically affect that number. Doesn't really mean anything, unless your number holds steady for a while, I guess.

No, being in libraries IS an achievement. If they all take it, good for you.

Again, this is not about YOU, or YOUR BOOK, it's about PA. The fact that YOU got YOUR BOOk into the libraries (if, indeed you do), you should be proud. But... it was YOUR work that got that book there, and PA did nothing but sit back and collect money.. more money than you'll see for all the work you did. All they did was print and ship, and they're going to get the lion's share of the money, while you slogged and schlepped around like a salesperson. You probably won't recoup any of your outlay, be it gas ,postage, phone, whatever. If your book had been published by a commercial publisher, they would have sent all the libraries in the COUNTRY, and not just your county, a catalog where they all could have purchased a copy.

8% is not standard royalty, by the way, and certainly not 8% of NET, for crying out loud. That's a raw deal. Standard, even for little publishers, is 10% of cover price.

[astonwest]

I used to find giving away copies of my PA book quite therapeutic, myself...

[LloydBrown]

Here's the very literate and self-possessed reply to my factual and neutral e-mail. You know, just in case I disappear tomorrow because this guy kills me over an e-mail and 5 minutes of research.

"I never said they did. Go back and read my posting once again, before you have the gaul to write me. Re-read what I said before you blast me. I never said anything like what you have just written. Get a life...oh, and learn to read. Either a writer writes well, or he/she doesn't. Either it will sell well, or it won't. Don't come crying my way...tell it to someone who gives a damn! And, if I were you, I'd be careful who you are e-mailing, or you could find yourself in some trouble!!"

As for his claim that he didn't say that, I did copy & paste the text, so I suppose that some element of my Windows is malfunctioning to mis-attribute text. Of course, it was apparently a man named David who answered the e-mail on Joy's page at a link that says "e-mail me" (http://www.freewebs.com/joymcquiston/biography.htm)

[James D. Macdonald]

It's on Tesco too!


Woo! Tesco! Thanks, I'd never thought to have checked them:

http://www.tesco.com/books/product.aspx?R=1411622987

[LloydBrown]

Woo! Tesco! Thanks, I'd never thought to have checked them:

http://www.tesco.com/books/product.aspx?R=1411622987

That's a good one, Jim. But I doubt Shelagh has read enough of the NEPAT to know about the Atlanta Nights story.

I read most of the book. It is absolutely awesome in its badness. I doubt you could unintentionally create a worse novel.

[Sara Rachael Hope]

I used to find giving away copies of my PA book quite therapeutic, myself...
Me too!!!!
I tell people that if they don't like it they can burn it also!
By the way...they are good to keep in one's trunk in case the car or van needs some heavy weight to help it get through the snow!
Also...I don't think PA actually PRINTS the books so therefore they can't be considered a publisher OR a printer.
Hmmm????

[Ken Schneider]

Woo! Tesco! Thanks, I'd never thought to have checked them:

http://www.tesco.com/books/product.aspx?R=1411622987



Hey, who would have guess mine cost more.

http://www.tesco.com/books/search.aspx?Ntt=The+Scent+of+Magnolias+and+Men&VSI=1&Ntk=primary&Nty=1&Ntx=mode%2Bmatchall

[James D. Macdonald]

I doubt Shelagh has read enough of the NEPAT to know about the Atlanta Nights story.

People who want to learn more about it can check here: http://www.freewebs.com/truthaboutpa/somebooks.htm

[astonwest]

I tell people that if they don't like it they can burn it also!

Scary...I was actually contemplating the idea of lighting 'em up...

Although most likely, I'm probably going to hand them over to Goodwill, so at least some good can come out of them (I hope).

[PVish]

...I don't think PA actually PRINTS the books so therefore they can't be considered a publisher OR a printer.
Hmmm????

So if they just take money for arranging for services of others, does that make them a pimp?

Hey, I've got a book on Tesco, too! And it's a POD book (but from a legitimate POD publisher who sends out a royalty statement every month, so I know how much I'm selling)!
http://www.tesco.com/books/product.aspx?R=0741416654

[James D. Macdonald]

I don't think PA actually PRINTS the books so therefore they can't be considered a publisher OR a printer.

Very few publishers own their own presses. Contracting out the printing to commercial printers is the norm.

[Rose colored glasses]

Regarding libraries - Someone on the PA board posted that libraries in the US won't stock our books because there is a number that's needed and PA doesn't supply it.

[James D. Macdonald]

Regarding libraries - Someone on the PA board posted that libraries in the US won't stock our books because there is a number that's needed and PA doesn't supply it.

That's the CIP number from the Library of Congress.

Without that number libraries have to catalog the book by hand. That adds time and expense to the acquisition. Furthermore, many libraries' acquisition committees won't even consider a book without CIP data. We've gotten reports of libraries that won't accept PA books as a gift.

As to why PA doesn't get CIP numbers -- the Library of Congress doesn't issue them to vanity-published books.

[James D. Macdonald]

Past my bedtime. Night night everyone.

Nighty-night, Shelagh. Sleep well. Pleasant dreams.

You don't need to prove anything to me, nor will I demand you give me data. You strike me as intelligent and honest. You'll see for yourself, and you'll know the truth for yourself.

If you manage to accomplish all your goals, then more power to you! I wish you the very best success.

Now I'm certain that when the royalties come out in a week's time you won't see a lot of reported sales. Should you ask PA about this, they'll give you the 90 day excuse: Bookstores supposedly don't report to them for 90 days about their sales. This is just an excuse: PA can check with Lightning Source at any moment to see exactly how many books were printed; Ingram reports to them every month on exactly how many books were shipped; Amazon tells them every month exactly how many were sold; and with the POD model, should a bookshop order directly, the presses don't roll until there's a payment already in hand. The books are non-returnable, so every sale is final.

But let's say for a moment that it's really true that they don't know how many books were sold, at what rates, for the past ninety days. Just hold on, wait until February, and check your royalty statements. See how the numbers match your own records, and how they match your expectations. It's early yet to be talking about whether you've achieved your goals. I sincerely hope that you do.

[Sara Rachael Hope]

Very few publishers own their own presses. Contracting out the printing to commercial printers is the norm.

I know all of this Jim (and thanks for verifying this because perhaps, some may not have known this).
My difficulty lies in the determination of what PA can be considered.
Since I am not now considered a published author, and the book was printed by another company anyway, what would you suggest PA be called?
I know it isn't a publisher, and I am rarely happy with them being spoken of that way.
Perhaps a criminal? Thief?
Maybe you can offer some other suggestions (certainly NOT 'publisher')?
Perhaps others may want to offer suggestions as well.
It will be most helpful!
Thanks.

[Unique]

"....what would you suggest PA be called?"

I thought the word was 'Scam'; at the very least, 'Sham'; in the same category as 'Spam'; and hopefully they will soon be on the 'Lam'. (If they aren't already.)

[Aconite]

before you have the gaul to write me.
You have a Gaul to write your e-mail? Did you find him on Craig's List, maybe? I want one.

[Sheryl Nantus]

You have a Gaul to write your e-mail? Did you find him on Craig's List, maybe? I want one.

maybe it's one of those pillagers from the Capital One Commercials...

[Dawno]

I had a Gaul doing my email for a while. Talk about a mess. Greasy prints on the monitor, half gnawed bones on the floor. And what that Mastiff did to the carpet...

[aruna]

I had quite a Gaul painting my kitchen this morning. Paint all over, and on my fingers now even as I type these very words.

[CaoPaux]

maybe it's one of those pillagers from the Capital One Commercials... :roll: I wouldn't mind pillaging a few of those....

[batgirl]

If you also want to be published -- ask a trusted friend to handle the submission part of the business and only tell you if something sells.

If it doesn't matter if you're published, just write.

I know this is off-topic (sorry) but Woo! I've been trying to talk my co-writer into letting me do submissions for her, because she just gets emotionally wrecked by rejection, and I don't think I would be (especially as it wouldn't be my work being rejected anyways).
So far she's only letting me handle the co-written book. She has at least half-a-dozen completed novels, in a variety of genres. I think they're good, too.
-Barbara

[underthecity]

While searching through past AW posts, I found an interesting PAMB thread about comparisons between PA and a "traditional" publisher.

Interesting stuff.

Check it out. (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/7352.htm)

allen