The New Never-Ending PublishAmerica Thread (NEPAT)

mdin · Feb 24, 2006

Memphis Ed is hero of the day.

Bonus to Darcy and the other guy for calling Ingram "Ingram" and not "Ingrams." She seemed pretty friendly and tried her best even though she didn't really know too much. The second guy was also very nice and patient, though he was wrong or lying about the Ingram discount part. He sounds very practiced with his answers.

It sounded busy in the background.

The Zen and the Art of School Teaching guy should have self published, and he would've made a whole lot more money. A whole lot more.

Ilovepensandpaper · Feb 24, 2006

Question

Ok, I have a question; I'm not the most knowledgable in the world. What makes arbitration different from a court trial, are they the same? I tell you, I am learning a lot from being on this board

. The legal lingo is a little over my head.

I listened to Memphis Ed. If I had to base my decision on listening to the two people he talked with at PA, I would NOT sign with it. What is the deal about the shelf space? I would think if the bookstore really wanted a book, it'll MAKE space. Also this whole thing about markets being saturated with books? No, duh, it is saturated with books. So to alleviate that you overwhelm me with numbers and tell me I basically have no chance with the 'big wig' publishers? You better take what you can get?

I have some poetry to write.... :rant:

SeanDSchaffer · Feb 24, 2006

Ilovepensandpaper said:
Ok, I have a question; I'm not the most knowledgable in the world. What makes arbitration different from a court trial, are they the same? I tell you, I am learning a lot from being on this board

. The legal lingo is a little over my head.

....Snipped.

From what I've been reading about arbitration lately, it looks like it would be much less expensive than a court case. Also from what I've seen, it's a bit more private than a civil court case would be.

I hope this helps you out, and I'll talk to you later.

astonwest · Feb 25, 2006

I'm surprised Ed didn't just get an answering machine...

xhouseboy · Feb 25, 2006

From the PAMB

I agree and I don't get reviews from friends or fellow authors and never have. I just came back for a brief time to check out the boards and post some news then I'm most likely going to fade like a fart in the wind again lol. I brought up my thoughts on reviewing once here and everyone and their grandma jumped on me for my opinion that reviews should be totally independent from friends and fellow authors.

It got pretty nasty and debating it back forth wasn't changing anyones mind and it wasn't worth the time and effort lol. Anyhow the only review I have posted on Amazon was from a writer who offered to do a review for me from the lulu forum. He saw my post talking trash on friendly reviews and he asked me to put my money where my mouth was and send him my book for an honest review. I did send it and it turned out he gave me a great review.

I don't have many reviews but I feel good knowing that they are completely and totally impartial from folks I never met before or became friendly with.

Just having that opinion though and expressing it on here can get a big reaction from the peanut gallery though lol. It just wasn't worth the grief and I was tired of the boards at that time anyhow so I exited stage left and so I'm on my way exiting again lol.

I like this guy. Honest. Knows the down.

In a previous post he mentions that PA authors shouldn't seek reviews from other PA authors or friends. Seems he was slaughtered for this opinion.

So he freely admits that he doesn't have many reviews, not like the long lists of 5 starrers that almost every PA book seems to pick up. But what he does have is genuine reviews. And if he ever lurks here, just don't forget, each one of those is worth every combined review of all your detractors on the PA board.

As sensible as his stance is, there are still some over there defending the practise of back-scratching reviews, implying that he's confused by critiques and reviews.

And at that, it appeared that he was once again about to leave them to their delusions while he rejoined the real world.

Saundra Julian · Feb 25, 2006

There's a little more to the story than that, xhouseboy!

Ed, loved the conversation with PA employees...did you feel as if you were chasing your tail?

Aconite · Feb 25, 2006

Ilovepensandpaper said:
What makes arbitration different from a court trial, are they the same?

The American Arbitration Association's website has some information that may be helpful to you. Start with their Beginner's Guide to Alternative Dispute Resolution.

Cate Cavanagh · Feb 25, 2006

I am free! (PublishAmerica)

Well, low and behold: I just received my release letter from PublishAmerica!

The reason given for liberating me from their scam, berating e mails and general lies was simply stated as being per my request! This is really funny because you see, this request began in 2004! What followed were emailed insults to me and my writing and no, your contract will not be terminated blah, blah, blah.

Well, I guess all the press releases I persistently sent out across the the country to newspapers, radio and TV stations, an appearance on NBCNY with our very own Jenna, my last article titled "Please Don't Buy My Book!", and an FBI Internet Fraud Unit complaint constituted "my request!"

I guess my request also included the three return receipt letters I sent them after studying contract law and realizing that, when I signed my contract in 2003, there was no legally binding contract to begin with!

The first letter explained the fraudulent means with which they misrepresented themselves in order to appeal to me, and their promise that my book would "be available in 50,000 bookstores". Yes. I have the letter.
So, based on this promise, I signed a contract. Within this letter I outlined all their promises on the web that lured me into approaching them. (I printed up their whole site for my file that was getting fatter by the second.)

I gave them thirty days to contest. They did not. I sent another return receipt letter announcing my pleasure at the fact that their lack of a reply to my first letter clearly meant they agreed with me.

I waited another thirty days. I sent a final letter (again return receipt) informing them that any further sale of my book is copyright infringement for which they will be liable.

This was months ago. I received my letter on February 18 of this year. Since I sent my last letter, I received measely royalty checks attached to what they continue to claim is a statement. I kept the checks and refuse to cash them or return them.

But, I am not the only one who went on a campaign such as this. There were quite a few. Some people have been requesting the IRS audit their books as well. It seems to be paying off. This month, within my little circle of colleagues, ten people have been released from their contracts. Some say they are released with a reference to paragraph 24 or paragraph 17 of the contract. I will add here that I find it ironic that this is all happening in such a tizzy. My instincts tell me that perhaps there is more happening behind the scenes than we might suspect.

I do know that the PA website and contract seems to have changed a little since I signed in 2003 so you may have to really scrutinize your contract, list your complaints and take extreme measures as many have.

With the recent loss of a lawsuit initiated by Encyclopedia Britannica, laying out their half of arbitrator fees for hearings that they are increasingly losing, I think they are in the process of cutting people loose. Now might be a good time to take advantage of this ill wind blowing their way and demand release from your contract, if that is what you wish to do.

I know "they" will try to continue their shell game of what company is related to them and I pity the poor writers who will not know and become victims as well. But that is then and this is now.

As for me, I am free!

Aconite · Feb 25, 2006

Congratulations, Cate! Why don't you go to the New Neverending Publish America thread at the top of this page, and share your joy there?

DaveKuzminski · Feb 25, 2006

Cate, could you provide me with a copy of that letter promising that your book would be available in 50,000 bookstores? If it's a written letter and you have a scanner available, a scanned copy is fine with me. If it's an email letter, you can copy the file you have it in and send that. If you need to contact me with any questions, I'm at [email protected] .

Gravity · Feb 25, 2006

Free at last, free at last, thank God almighty, I'm free at last! Got my certified letter from PA today, returning all my rights to Sock Monkey Blues. Yee-hahhh!

John

NancyMehl · Feb 25, 2006

Gravity said:
Free at last, free at last, thank God almighty, I'm free at last! Got my certified letter from PA today, returning all my rights to Sock Monkey Blues. Yee-hahhh!

John

That is wonderful news, John!

Nancy

James D. Macdonald · Feb 25, 2006

I have no doubt that without the information provided on this board, and similar boards, and the actions taken by the people who post on this board and similar boards, that none of these writers would have had their rights returned.

If PA hasn't yet returned your rights, now is the time to get in touch with the American Arbitration Association (you can file directly on-line from their webpage). Why just get your rights back when you might get your rights back and a bit of money too?

For those who have been released, now might be a good time to talk with a lawyer. No contract means you aren't bound by the arbitration-only clause. Merely cancelling the contract isn't a get-out-of-jail-free card for Willem, Miranda, and Larry.

Cate Cavanagh · Feb 25, 2006

James D. Macdonald said:
Also in the last year:

Atlanta Nights

The "returnability" program (with the new, improved 5% discount!)

Willem's book

Other appearances in the mainstream media -- all of them unfavorable

==================

Discussions on other boards:

Writer's Net

Speculations.com

Mindsight

It was my understanding that ATLANTA NIGHTS did not go to publication by PA. I have good sources that said after the sting was revealed, a letter rejecting the book began with something like: 'After reconsider' etc.

Aconite · Feb 25, 2006

Cate Cavanagh said:
It was my understanding that ATLANTA NIGHTS did not go to publication by PA. I have good sources that said after the sting was revealed, a letter rejecting the book began with something like: 'After reconsider' etc.

That's correct. Hours after the sting became public, PA rejected the book. James Macdonald--our own Uncle Jim--was the organizer, by the way. That PA accepted a book that bad in the first place is proof they don't screen for quality, as they claim to do.

James D. Macdonald · Feb 25, 2006

Cate Cavanagh said:
It was my understanding that ATLANTA NIGHTS did not go to publication by PA. I have good sources that said after the sting was revealed, a letter rejecting the book began with something like: 'After reconsider' etc.

See message 5631 here.

Full text of PA's letter:

From: "PublishAmerica Acquisitions"
To: XXX
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005
Subject: Your Submission to PublishAmerica

> Dear Mr.XXX,
>
> We must withdraw our offer to publish Atlanta Nights. Upon further review
> it appears that your work is not ready to be published. There are portions
> of nonsensical text in the manuscript that were caught by our editing
> staff as they previewed the text for editing time assessment pending your
> acceptance of our offer.
>
> On the positive side, maybe you want to consider contracting the book with
> a vanity publisher such as iUniverse or Author House. They will certainly
> publish your book at a fee.
>
> Thank you.
>
> PublishAmerica Acquisitions Department

The hoax was announced in public at the Arisia science fiction convention on 23 January, 2005 (coinciding with the Washington Post story and the AP story), and on the AW board on the 24th of January. That was a month and a half after PA accepted the book.

I produced the Lulu.com edition (at no cost to me) later that same night.

Nexusman · Feb 25, 2006

James D. Macdonald said:
> On the positive side, maybe you want to consider contracting the book with
> a vanity publisher such as iUniverse or Author House. They will certainly
> publish your book at a fee.
>

I gotta admit, it's pretty funny how they attempt to disassociate themselves from vanity presses that way.

-Nick

Saundra Julian · Feb 25, 2006

Congratulations, congratulations everyone!!!

SeanDSchaffer · Feb 25, 2006

Cate; John: Congratulations to both of you on getting your rights returned.

JennaGlatzer · Feb 25, 2006

I'm thrilled! Congrats, Cate and John!

God, if this pattern holds, then the only thing everyone has in common is that at one time, they were vocal against PA. I pray they're making their way through the list chronologically and just haven't gotten to the rest of you yet. Now I do believe that they're scared to keep losing in arbitration, so they're dropping anyone who's ever been a threat. I hope.

But one thing... and this is a tricky thing to ask:

Please, even if you've been released, don't drop this fight. We still need you.

P.S. Great show, Memphis Ed!

Dawno · Feb 25, 2006

Good point, Jenna. I believe they're hoping that by releasing folks the released authors will give up keeping the scam in the limelight, that the truth about PA will sink to the back pages of a Google search and they'll be left in peace to continue luring writers to their scam.

Gravity · Feb 25, 2006

JennaGlatzer said:
Please, even if you've been released, don't drop this fight. We still need you.

Jenna: no worries from me on that end. Let me put it this way (and I admit this is going to sound nuts, but bear with me).

Last Saturday night my wife and I popped in our DVD of Ben-Hur (one of our faves). For some reason, that night a scene in that film affected me like few ever have...and I'd never really caught the significance before. It's the part when Ben-Hur has rescued the Roman general from death, and is now a hero. He's being escorted down the deck of the ship when suddenly he pauses, and looks down. Through the grate at his feet, he sees the shadows of the slaves working the oars; a role he filled on another ship only the day before. In his eyes, you see revelation dawn. He knows he's no longer part of that world, true...but you get a sense that world is still a part of him. And always will be.

So it is with my PA experience. I'm free now, but I know well the helpless feeling of having a book held in thrall to them. I pray I never forget that feeling.

And that's what'll keep me in this fight.

John

Click to expand...

Gabriele · Feb 25, 2006

Nexusman said:
I gotta admit, it's pretty funny how they attempt to disassociate themselves from vanity presses that way.

-Nick

Hehe, and America Book Publishing which charges advance fees makes snarky remarks about a company posing as traditional publisher and paying a one dollar token advance.

Them sharkses don't like each other, no precious.

Also, if Atlanta Nights would have been published with a vanity publisher, PA could blow the "see, we do read the books we publish because we turned that sucker down" horn.

Memphis Ed · Feb 25, 2006

JennaGlatzer said:
P.S. Great show, Memphis Ed!

Thanks for all the nice comments.

I will be removing this particular segment of the show simply because the two folks I spoke to at PA were very polite and I am hoping they don't get negatively impacted for simply being polite.

BTW, I received an e-mail from a PA author in England this morning (the podcast is heard all over the world). His first e-mail simply said how much he enjoyed the program segment. I responded with a "thanks" and brief explanation of my PA concerns.

Here is a snip from his response "I do think that most new authors are probably misled when they read what the publisher says largely because they do not have any background in publishing and do not know what they should be expecting. I am sad for them. I did not think of PA as a vanity publisher because you did not have to pay them anything. But I realize now it is a sophisticated form of vanity publishing by another name."

He is still a PA author and continuing to make efforts with his book, so I am not going to reveal his identity or name, but I thought this would be interesting to you.

I am hoping to have another recorded call shortly which I won't be relunctant to keep on-line for a while. If I can get through, it should be interesting listening.

LloydBrown · Feb 25, 2006

17,000 authors

If PA’s customers were representative of authors submitting across America to legitimate publishing houses, how would that number look?

98% of them would submit unpublishable material. While they might sell 50-100 copies through force of personality and personal effort alone, their manuscript is not worthy of investment in even the smallest of offset print runs.

That’s 16,660 x 75 copies = 1,249,500 copies sold. Chump change.

Of the 2% who have created a worthwhile manuscript, let’s say 50% earn out a small print run averaging 4,000 copies between small and large publishers. Of the ones who don’t earn out, let’s say that they sell half of the print run on average.

That’s an additional 1,020,000 copies sold.

Of those who sold through their first print run (earning over $13,000,000 in royalties after paying their agents, btw), let’s say that 3/4 stop there. The book was good, but it took a while for that initial print run to trickle through. Thanks for playing, go write another book.

The other ¼ (rounded down) continue with a fair success. The publisher orders another print run or two and they sell an average of 20,000 more copies.

That’s another 840,000 copies sold.

Of those 42 remaining writers, let’s say two parley those initial sales into long-term success. They each sell 100,000 copies total.

That’s another 144,000 copies, not counting hardback versions at all.

Average publisher with no special talent has 3,253,500 sales and dozens of writers with established fan bases who have a virtual guarantee of 1,000,000 more sales on their next book, as long as they stay within genre.

So, where are all the winners?

The New Never-Ending PublishAmerica Thread (NEPAT)

The late, the great XThe NavigatorX

Come...Tell me about it

SeanDSchaffer

2 WIP? A glutton for punishment

In the Yellow Woods

A work in progress

Cate Cavanagh

Preditors & Editors

Seen 'em come, seen 'em go

She Who Resonates...

Your Genial Uncle

Cate Cavanagh

Your Genial Uncle

Chaos Warrior

A work in progress

SeanDSchaffer

wishes you happiness

Shiny!

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