The New Never-Ending PublishAmerica Thread (NEPAT)

SeanDSchaffer · Feb 20, 2006

bloemmarc said:
Snipped....

I was actually looking at the fantasy books publshed by Tor, Daw, Baen, and Roc. These are the companies I am submitting my manuscript to along with some smaller but legit publishers like Mundania Press.

My Emphasis.

You've got some pretty decent companies listed there. Right on. I wish you all the best with them.

bloemmarc · Feb 20, 2006

SeanDSchaffer said:
My Emphasis.

You've got some pretty decent companies listed there. Right on. I wish you all the best with them.

Thank you. i think I have a pretty decent story, but we'll see what happens. I am very excited about the future prospects though, of what could be. I whish you all the luck as well.

ResearchGuy · Feb 20, 2006

In a nutshell

From the PAMB:

But many of the stores tell me that my book is non-returnable. I assure them that it is returnable but, of course, they won't take my word for it. It is listed in their system as a non-returnable book. (Emphasis added.)

The poster's belief is so strong that the facts cannot be accepted as true. Underlying that belief, I suspect, is a deep-seated need to believe. Much rides on the belief that acceptance and printing by PA constitutes validation of one's longed-for and fiercely defended status as "published author." That, in a nutshell, is why it is so hard to make a dent in the mindset. Only when the accumulated weight of contrary evidence breaks through can the PA believer adopt a new framework and then accept facts as facts.

--Ken

Sheryl Nantus · Feb 20, 2006

good point, Ken...

it's much easier to believe in the "conspiracy" that's keeping their books out of the mainstream bookstores than to believe that they've been taken.

and, as I displayed in my previous post, most of these PA authors have no idea of what "returnable" means or how it should be implemented.

spike · Feb 20, 2006

ResearchGuy said:
From the PAMB:

The poster's belief is so strong that the facts cannot be accepted as true. Underlying that belief, I suspect, is a deep-seated need to believe. Much rides on the belief that acceptance and printing by PA constitutes validation of one's longed-for and fiercely defended status as "published author." That, in a nutshell, is why it is so hard to make a dent in the mindset. Only when the accumulated weight of contrary evidence breaks through can the PA believer adopt a new framework and then accept facts as facts.

--Ken

Isn't that called congnitive dissonance? When the facts disagree with what you believe and it makes you fight harder? (Trying to remember freshman psych class)

SC Harrison · Feb 20, 2006

MMo said:
That's a good article, Steve, even without the direct naming.

Mo

Thanks, Mo. I am going to post the link to the article on the Announcements forum, but they update the website once a week, so it will be gone soon.

Christine N. · Feb 20, 2006

From the "Why oh why won't Barnes and Noble stock my book?" thread...

I'm having the same trouble. Honestly, I don't believe it's an issue with Publish America.

Denial

They have done everything they could do to list it as returnable.

Except actually list it AS returnable (you don't know for sure that they have) and give a discount that is attractive to retailers.

I think it's an internal problem with the corporation of Barnes and Noble. I'm frustrated also, because although I know that Ingrams has my book listed as returnable, Barnes and Noble refuses to acknowledge that; thus, book signings are not going to happen for me until they acknowledge my books as returnable.

They might not happen anyway, depending on the regional manager. B&N doesn't take POD books for stocking, they say as much on their criteria for submission via the small press dept. Not that you would know that - PA doesn't try to get the books in the B&N systems, nor do they tell you how to do it. You have to find out from the manager, or another PA author. Yeah.

The problem is not with Publish America, but with those in leadership at Barnes and Noble. Until they register our books as returnable in their system, our books will continue to be regarded as non-returnable.

Of course, it's NEVER PA's fault, is it?

It is highly frustrating.

Yes, it is, and it's only going to get worse.

ResearchGuy · Feb 20, 2006

spike said:
Isn't that called congnitive dissonance? When the facts disagree with what you believe and it makes you fight harder? (Trying to remember freshman psych class)

Precisely. Attributed to Leon Festinger. The response is dictated by the workings of the strain toward consistency. The folks we see on the PAMB are resolving the dissonance one way. Those who find their way here have resolved (or soon do resolve) the other way (the way that better conforms to the observable facts).

--Ken

Gabriele · Feb 20, 2006

The problem is not with Publish America, but with those in leadership at Barnes and Noble. Until they register our books as returnable in their system, our books will continue to be regarded as non-returnable.

It's a conspiracy. No agent takes on poor little author, and without an agent poor little author doesn't find a publisher. Poor litte author also doesn't get stored by big bad bookstores even if he's found a pub ... eh, printer.

It's not the truth, of course, but an argument I've heard more than once, and not only on the PA forums.

In the last month, three of my writer friends have landed an agent, and one got a publishing contract with a real publisher.

One day we'll meet on the shelves of the the big bad bookstores. I believe in it.

Stan Jozwiak · Feb 20, 2006

I don't get no expect

I think that I might have just underwent the ultimate indignity. The Cleveland Post has declined to publish my press release concerning my splendid PA novel, The Newness of New.
This Cleveland Post has nothing to do with the Ohio city. Cleveland is a small sub-district of the small town of Benson, North Carolina. It does have a fine Middle school, and an even finer Elementary School, and it has a free home delivered weekly newspaper called The Cleveland Post. Filled mostly with advertisements from the local merchants the Post does contain lists of community events and local church and civic group happenings. And only the other month, there was a small item about a book signing that a local author was going to perform in one of the church halls on a Saturday afternoon.
I thought that I had edtablished my residency requirements and I also qualified as a local author, so I sent a little note to the assistant editor whose name is featured on the announcements column.
I have received no response whatsoever.
Disgruntled
Stan Jozwiak

LloydBrown · Feb 20, 2006

If we're starting a Debate thread, where should it be? TIO?

Dawno · Feb 20, 2006

Conversation about the debate should be in the NEPAT Overflow thread in TIO, please.

if you're ever unclear about the purpose of this thread, Jim's guidelines are in the first post.

spike · Feb 20, 2006

I guess they do know what's going on...

PAMB said:
Who sells our books???

Why, WE do ...

Everyone else just stocks them for us.

That is sad, especially since the next couple of posts agreed heartily.

AnnaWhite · Feb 21, 2006

JennaGlatzer said:
OK, I have the answer!

I have info on three people who recently had contracts terminated by PA, and what they have in common is...

NOTHING WHATSOEVER!

Wasn't it about this time last year that a few authors (including Jean Marie and Soots) were released? Maybe this is how PA welcomes the end of winter, by granting amnesty to a few authors. Maybe, it's a special ritual to herald the arrival of spring.

"Go to the dungeons," said Willeim to his squire, the stony faced Jessica. "When you are down there, cover both your eyes with this cloth. Then choose half-dozen prisoners and release them from their fetters. Let this be our yearly gift to the seasons, that they may grant us good weather."

DaveKuzminski · Feb 21, 2006

Of course, there's one other possibility why PA released those particular writers. For instance, what if someone in authority within their locality began the process to prosecute PA unless it released those authors?

So, to those writers who were released, the question is asked, did you voice a complaint to anyone locally or within your state government about PA?

Ken Schneider · Feb 21, 2006

More likely, Dave, is that PA read somwhere that publishers release two-three writers a year as a norm. That is the only info they have to go on.

As far as who they release, well it's a pick-um', because few of their titles sell well anyway, mine included.

DaveKuzminski · Feb 21, 2006

PA consistently acts according to what will benefit it. This is evident from how PA views contracts and uses the interpretation that fits PA's needs rather than the one the industry abides by. For PA to just pick someone at random to terminate goes against that pattern of behavior. To believe otherwise would be just as wrong as concluding the existence of a conspiracy in the publishing industry to prevent the emergence of new writers when logic dictates that new writers must be found on a regular basis in order to obtain sufficient new material in order to remain in business.

There is a strong likelihood that there is a reason. That is why questions need to be asked. There may be a commonality among them that no one has spotted before. If it can be identified, then more writers stand a better chance of being released from their contracts with PA.

Tilly · Feb 21, 2006

DaveKuzminski said:
PA consistently acts according to what will benefit it.

I think there are exceptions to that. Why hold on to a contract for the full seven years when they know they will get no further benefit from it? This is what they do in the majority of cases, and all it can possibly achieve is to make people more likely to complain and warn others about PA.

I think that's vindictiveness over self-interest.

But I do agree that it's likely there is a reason for these releases. It may be the same reason for all three, or it might be different reasons that are somehow connected. The proximity to royalty time might have something to do with it.

PA likes to keep its authors trapped. That's what makes this so weird.

DaveKuzminski · Feb 21, 2006

There are several valid reasons for holding a contract for seven years.

It induces a feeling of helplessness in the authors causing them to rely upon PA.
It creates a feeling that the book will be too old then to be wanted by the public and thus inspires a sense of urgency in the authors to do something.
It provides PA with bargaining and control power.

Tilly · Feb 21, 2006

Okay, I agree with that.

They are such deleted by Nice-O-Matictm

DeePower · Feb 21, 2006

Did B&N order 25 copies or not?

From the PAMB. I left out the isbn and author’s name. It seems that Barnes and Noble did not order the copies. As of today, Ingram shows there are 0 on order, 0 on backorder, 0 in inventory. bookmanager.com shows the title is POD, 5% discount. Ingram shows total sales to date is 11. Not 25. Yes, I know that the copies could have been ordered from PA but the author says in the second post that Barnes and Noble ordered from Ingram.

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 8:40 pm Post subject: Barnes & Noble! Sharing Good News http://bb.publishamerica.com/posting.php?mode=quote&p=131889

Barnes & Noble store told me today that they can't keep enough of my books in the store. They have been ordering the book since mid-January, but this last order for 25 books has taken over two weeks. They say it's because with POD the books just take longer for processing and to get to them. In addition, they checked with eight other B&N stores within close proximity and they have the same problem; the books go out as soon as they come in. While I was extremely happy to hear this, there are many people who are asking me why the book isn't readily available at the major bookstores. It's difficult to explain that whole process and, I must say, kind of puzzling. Anyway, long story short, the local B&N advised me that they would love to have me in for a book signing as they are constantly receiving calls for my book! Wow, who would have thunk it...

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:02 am Post subject: http://bb.publishamerica.com/posting.php?mode=quote&p=132974

Thanks much!

XXXXX, I went to the B&N in the area where a lot of the history for my book takes place. They were very receptive and, since it was in the Ingram database that they use, they initially ordered 8 copies or so just to see how it would do. After seeing the high demand, they have ordered more and more copies, and that led to the book signing invite.

********************************************

How does this happen?

Is the B&N store fibbing? Is the PA author exaggerating? Did the local B&N order the copies and Corporate B&N cancel the order? Did the local B&N order the copies and PA refuse to fill the order.

If the PA author believes that all these copies were actually ordered, this may be where a lot of the anger at royalty time comes from when the “sales” don’t show up on the statement.

Just don't get it.

Dee

Tilly · Feb 21, 2006

This is the same author who has a ranking of around 60,000 on B&N.com. From looking at her book I've been wondering whether it has a genuine local interest market. But I have no idea what's going on with the bookstore orders she's mentioned. It is odd that Ingram isn't showing any.

I think she'd be expecting only one or two months worth of sales in this royalty cheque, so whatever is going on, the author might not realise something is seriously odd until the next cheque.

Could this be to do with the new 5% discount? Could the stores be trying (poor things) to order directly from PA to make it more financially feasible for them? PA doesn't seem to like a book selling too well, unless it's to the author. If this book has taken off locally, I don't think PA is set up to deal with it, are they?

PVish · Feb 21, 2006

DeePower said:
From the PAMB. I left out the isbn and author’s name. It seems that Barnes and Noble did not order the copies. As of today, Ingram shows there are 0 on order, 0 on backorder, 0 in inventory. bookmanager.com shows the title is POD, 5% discount. Ingram shows total sales to date is 11. Not 25. Yes, I know that the copies could have been ordered from PA but the author says in the second post that Barnes and Noble ordered from Ingram.
<snip>
How does this happen?

Is the B&N store fibbing? Is the PA author exaggerating? Did the local B&N order the copies and Corporate B&N cancel the order? Did the local B&N order the copies and PA refuse to fill the order.

If the PA author believes that all these copies were actually ordered, this may be where a lot of the anger at royalty time comes from when the “sales” don’t show up on the statement.

Just don't get it.

Dee

You don't suppose that her local B&N ordered from bn.com, do you? After all, the $2 off the online price is better than the 5% discount Ingrams could do, and the store would probably save on postage on an order of several books. Then the store would make $2 profit from its in-store sale. This could have contributed to such a low number in the online ranking.

Just letting my mind run wild while I search for an explanation.

Kevin Yarbrough · Feb 21, 2006

Tilly said:
This is the same author who has a ranking of around 60,000 on B&N.com.

That don't mean anything. When I was a PA devoutee I had a B&N.com ranking of 54,000. What did my royalty check show? 5 books sold. I also had an Amazon ranking of under a million and got a check for 3 books, I think.

By the way, my 54,000 ranking at B&N.com stayed like that for about a month before it started to fall and then vanished. It doesn't mean crap, as we all know, and as the new PA authors will soon learn.

Tilly · Feb 21, 2006

More book ordering problems. Two posts from an author whose books keep showing up as non-returnable:

Posted on the PA board said:
I got a reply from PA today. They said that my title is not fully set up in their system and that they don't have the basic biblio
data, so the book is automatically showing up as Non Returnable.

Now, I don't know if they mean that it will always be shown as non-returnable or that it will be as soon as my book is fully on the system. I sent them another message asking them this and I also asked that if it will still be listed as non-returnable, what can we do about it? I also suggested, if that is the case, if they could write a letter or communicate in some way to the corperate headquarters of Barnes & Noble to let their stores know that all PA books are returnable. I'll let you know what they say. Also, I suggest that authors that have had the same problem, e-mail PA as I did.

I'm not being critical of PA, they are doing a great job, I just feel that something needs to be done at a higher level. Barnes & Noble have been pleasant too. They are just following orders. They cannot take the word of the authors, they have to do what they are told by their managers. Hopefully, we can clear this problem up.

Posted on the PA board said:
I just got the reply from PA. They said that the information would have to come from Ingram. I will call Ingram again, but I feel that I am chasing a wild goose here. My respect for PA has just drop 10 points. I thought they were in the publishing business.

Does anyone know what shows up when a book is listed as returnable? Does it mention the ridiculous 5% discount? Otherwise, bookstores are going to get a nasty shock.

It does sound like this poor author is getting the run around. They also still think PA is interested in selling books through bookstores, rather than to the authors.

The New Never-Ending PublishAmerica Thread (NEPAT)

SeanDSchaffer

Fantasy writer

Resident Curmudgeon

Holding out for a Superhero...

Mostly Ignored

Dances With Hamsters

haz a shiny new book cover

Resident Curmudgeon

Shiny!

Mostly Ignored

Preditors & Editors

Absolute sagebrush

Preditors & Editors

Preditors & Editors

DeePower

Cat hair collector

Will write for peace of mind