Thanks, Tilly, Sean, and Mreddin. What you are saying makes excellent sense. I definitely don't want others to be scammed by PA. I am all for getting info out, I just didn't understand the deal with the debate.
The New Never-Ending PublishAmerica Thread (NEPAT)
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I think it's pretty obvious PA is under the impression that their ability to terminate contracts at will also terminates their obligation to pay royalties from the previous six months. I suspect several people just got walking papers.
Canada,
Oh I definitely will be writing another book, no doubt about that.
I was just curious of how the debate itself would help me or anyone in a similar situation is all.
Oh I definitely will be writing another book, no doubt about that.
I was just curious of how the debate itself would help me or anyone in a similar situation is all.
DeePower said:
Carl missed his calling. With his gift of glib double talk, he should have been a politician.
He uses his gift to convince himself and others that PA is on the level, and at the same time shows the confusion that abounds on the PAMB.
Phew!!!
And when you're recovering in intensive care, every major organ in your body having packed in from overuse and sheer and utter exhaustion, it might give you some time to ponder upon whether you missed a trick or two...
Paragraph 17
Sorry it took so long for me to get back.
My Paragraph 17 does state the whole promotion, etc. of the book. I let them know like a year ago when all the news articles were coming out that they may as well invoke Paragraph 24 of the contract, as no other copies would sell, and I would do nothing to promote the book. Why should I? I stupidly bought 50 copies when it frist came out, and there are still copies left. My husband and I promoted it at work, and my mother did in my home town. Other than that, I did nothing.
Then I did an interview for the Frederick News Post (under my name, Anjie Kendall). That's when I told them that I'd do nothing else for the book. So, roughly a year later, they saw that I was serious, and let me go, due to my "breech" of Par. 17. According to the letter I got, all copyrights are now mine again, and I'll get my last royalty statement when everyone else does. Yay. Another 83 cent check I won't cash.
I'm just glad to be rid of PA. My husband is happy for me as well.
Sorry it took so long for me to get back.
My Paragraph 17 does state the whole promotion, etc. of the book. I let them know like a year ago when all the news articles were coming out that they may as well invoke Paragraph 24 of the contract, as no other copies would sell, and I would do nothing to promote the book. Why should I? I stupidly bought 50 copies when it frist came out, and there are still copies left. My husband and I promoted it at work, and my mother did in my home town. Other than that, I did nothing.
Then I did an interview for the Frederick News Post (under my name, Anjie Kendall). That's when I told them that I'd do nothing else for the book. So, roughly a year later, they saw that I was serious, and let me go, due to my "breech" of Par. 17. According to the letter I got, all copyrights are now mine again, and I'll get my last royalty statement when everyone else does. Yay. Another 83 cent check I won't cash.
I'm just glad to be rid of PA. My husband is happy for me as well.
Arden19 said:I'm just glad to be rid of PA. My husband is happy for me as well.
I'm so happy for you! Congratuations!
Arden19 said:
Don't let PA have the money. It gives PA a buffer and prevents them from creating an overdraft. If you get a check, either cash it yourself, or if there's an expense involved, mail it to someone somewhere else, such as a charity, who can use the money and won't have to pay a check cashing fee. Remember, every penny that PA actually pays out moves them that much closer to out of business.
Arden19 said:
I'm sorry you went through this experience but am also happy you are now free -- however, always, always, always cash their checks. Photocopy it if you want, but cash it, because otherwise that is just MORE money they get to take from the authors.
Mo
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The article I alluded to a few weeks ago has been published. The newspaper chose to not reveal PA's name specifically, so I almost decided to post this elsewhere, but I decided what the hey.
http://www.gotriad.com/article/articleview/17375/1/14/
p.s. Don't laugh at the picture, okay? My a$$ is not that big, it's the angle of the camera.
http://www.gotriad.com/article/articleview/17375/1/14/
p.s. Don't laugh at the picture, okay? My a$$ is not that big, it's the angle of the camera.
Arden19 said:
YAY!!!
But to be pedantic, the copyrights were always yours. When one "sells" a book, what is transferred the publisher is the right to publish the book, not the copyright. At least, that's the case with real publishers.
I am posting this here--with Kevin's permission--because even though it doesn't address the subject of this thread directly, it nevertheless raises an important issue that is often brought up in this discussion, that of making one's work publishable by commercial houses. Thanks, Kevin.
Kevin Smokler (Bookmark Now: Writing in Unreaderly Times):
I spent this entire weekend at the San Francisco Writers Conference giving "Straight talk to aspiring writers" consultations. 15 minutes, costs $25, money goes to charity. I thought since I'm not a household name, I'd be half full. Every slot was booked with a 15-person waiting list.
During these sessions, I noticed a subtle but significant dividing line between the writers I had hope for (Group A) and those I didn't (Group B). Group A, whether well-published or clipless, showed a willingness to learn. They listened hard, took notes, formulated next steps, asked probing questions even when I had bad news for them. They saw developing a writing career as an incremental process with them in the drivers seat. In contrast, Group B waited for me to wave my wand. They wanted me to read their pitches and query letters and say "Yes! I'm sending it to my agent today." When I said anything less, they slumped their shoulders, argued or ignored me. They saw themselves at the same time powerless and entitled. They thought because they had written what they perceived as a good book that the rest was about waiting for the fairy godmother to show up. When I told them no, they pouted like children. Their refrain was "It shouldn't be this hard."
What I found so fascinating is that this divide has little to do with publication status. I've worked with world class writers with New York houses and powerful agents at their side who still feel like the world is conspiring to ignore their genius. And I've met writers who have never published a word who simply feel they were born to do this and are busy organizing readings at community centers, leading workshops, starting literary journals, seeking out mentors and making a place for themselves in the literary world that they can be proud off, a place from which they can grow.
To me, that's the dividing line in how we talk that I hear. Do we treat this as both a job and a calling? Do we bring to it the same degree of professionalism that a good doctor or architect or teacher brings to their career, all jobs people claim lifelong callings to? Or do we think that because we have been couragous enough to express our vulnerabilities on the page that the world is obligated to take notice? I see published and unpublished writers on both sides of the aisle.
Kevin Smokler (Bookmark Now: Writing in Unreaderly Times):
I spent this entire weekend at the San Francisco Writers Conference giving "Straight talk to aspiring writers" consultations. 15 minutes, costs $25, money goes to charity. I thought since I'm not a household name, I'd be half full. Every slot was booked with a 15-person waiting list.
During these sessions, I noticed a subtle but significant dividing line between the writers I had hope for (Group A) and those I didn't (Group B). Group A, whether well-published or clipless, showed a willingness to learn. They listened hard, took notes, formulated next steps, asked probing questions even when I had bad news for them. They saw developing a writing career as an incremental process with them in the drivers seat. In contrast, Group B waited for me to wave my wand. They wanted me to read their pitches and query letters and say "Yes! I'm sending it to my agent today." When I said anything less, they slumped their shoulders, argued or ignored me. They saw themselves at the same time powerless and entitled. They thought because they had written what they perceived as a good book that the rest was about waiting for the fairy godmother to show up. When I told them no, they pouted like children. Their refrain was "It shouldn't be this hard."
What I found so fascinating is that this divide has little to do with publication status. I've worked with world class writers with New York houses and powerful agents at their side who still feel like the world is conspiring to ignore their genius. And I've met writers who have never published a word who simply feel they were born to do this and are busy organizing readings at community centers, leading workshops, starting literary journals, seeking out mentors and making a place for themselves in the literary world that they can be proud off, a place from which they can grow.
To me, that's the dividing line in how we talk that I hear. Do we treat this as both a job and a calling? Do we bring to it the same degree of professionalism that a good doctor or architect or teacher brings to their career, all jobs people claim lifelong callings to? Or do we think that because we have been couragous enough to express our vulnerabilities on the page that the world is obligated to take notice? I see published and unpublished writers on both sides of the aisle.
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Over at the PAMB, another author asks the questions that so many have asked before:
To this poster and other lurkers: You've done all you can. PA has stacked the deck against you. PA is unlikely to give you an honest answer to your questions. They are only interested in selling directly to you. They don't care about the bookstores.
The bookstores are right—the short discount of 5% means they'd lose money if they ordered and then tried to return your book. Hence, to them, the book is non-returnable.
To this poster and other lurkers: You've done all you can. PA has stacked the deck against you. PA is unlikely to give you an honest answer to your questions. They are only interested in selling directly to you. They don't care about the bookstores.
The bookstores are right—the short discount of 5% means they'd lose money if they ordered and then tried to return your book. Hence, to them, the book is non-returnable.
This is the point that so many of PA's authors don't understand. Heck, I wouldn't have known if you hadn't said. I don't know a lot about life at a bookstore. PA counts on their victims being similarly ignorant of bookstore accounting. That way, they can tell their authors "We've listed it as returnable! Your local bookstore is lying to you! We told them it was returnable!" and let their authors think that the bookstores are out to get them. But of course the real culprit is PA, who has knowingly set prices and discounts such that any bookstore who wants to stay in the black has to treat their "returnable" books as not returnable.PVish said:
Again and again, we see this "publisher" relying on ignorance of the publishing industry and ignorance of the bookstore industry to make their lies and half-truths seem plausible. They're no different from any other predator which preys on the weak; here, the weakness that defines "prey" is lack of knowledge.
(Well, there are others, but that's the biggie without which it would all fall apart for them.)
PVish said:
back to the basics, for the lurkers - and yes, you will NEVER see this information on the PAMB or anywhere on the PA website, so don't strain your eyes trying to find it.
and THAT should be the first sign of alarm.
all reputable publishers sell their books to the retailer (the bookstore) at usually 40% off the retail price. That allows the seller to make a profit. You've seen this already on your pittance of a royalty check, when PA pays the author 8% of the sale price - which is 40% of what it sells to the public for.
example - $12.95 = it's sold to the bookstore for $7.77 and the author gets 8% of THAT = 62 cents per book.
now PA has this farce of a return policy which says "sure, you can return it - but you're only going to get 5% discount".
example - $12.95 = sold to the bookstore for $12.33.
now let's stop right there before we get to the royalty part (just under a buck anyway)...
the bookstore counts on being able to make a profit on each book, as is their right with this free enterprise system and all - but with only SIXTY CENTS discount on a returnable PA book, it's nothing. Literally, nothing. Why? Because if the bookstore decides to return said PA book after a month or two they bite the postage - which is certainly going to be a LOT more than sixty cents per book to send it BACK to PA. Look at what PA is charging YOU to send YOUR book to YOU. Even if you buy in bulk the shipping charges are not going to balance out.
This is why bookstores balk at buying books at less than 40% discount and certainly not "returnable" at 5%. It's just not economically feasible. It doesn't matter how you do the math, bookstores are going to lose money if they start stocking PA books.
and PA KNOWS THIS.
which is why they continue to offer "special" sales to the authors and NOT to the bookstores at a reasonable rate. Their target audience is not the bookstores, it's the authors. Let YOU, the author, get suckered into paying for the shipping and then try to sell it at lower prices to try and recoup a profit, or barely break even.
meanwhile, PA marches on with full knowledge that this "return" policy is nothing but a sham and a disgrace to the publishing industry.
(note: if I've mucked up any of the math, please leap in here to correct me.)
Note that the bookstores are losing money just by ordering a PA book--they don't have to wait until returning it to take a loss. That means even bookstores that may have formerly been willing to special order PA books for customers who paid in advance for their copies aren't likely to be willing to do that anymore.Sheryl Nantus said:
Sheryl Nantus said:
I'm sorry -- All my contracts have called for royalty on the sales price [edited to clarify--this is cover price as Christine so corrrectly points out below], not the price the publisher gets, so the 8% royalty should be on $12.95, not the discounted amount, and therefore -- $1.036.
More and more I'm seeing references to royalty on "net." I strongly urge those of you who see these clauses to say no.
Mo
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Just to clarify that -
Sales price is the price the retailer paid, not the consumer. The retailer pays PA, so that's what the royalty is calculated on. Once the book is in the store, the consumer pays the bookstore, but PA's already gotten its money (despite its claims of 30 60 90 days)
Cover price is what you WANT to paid at. No matter what discount is given, you still get that 8% of the full retail value. But, since PA doesn't print the price on the cover, what 'cover price' is, is not able to be pinned down.
Sales price is the price the retailer paid, not the consumer. The retailer pays PA, so that's what the royalty is calculated on. Once the book is in the store, the consumer pays the bookstore, but PA's already gotten its money (despite its claims of 30 60 90 days)
Cover price is what you WANT to paid at. No matter what discount is given, you still get that 8% of the full retail value. But, since PA doesn't print the price on the cover, what 'cover price' is, is not able to be pinned down.
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People with terminated contracts
OK, I have the answer!
I have info on three people who recently had contracts terminated by PA, and what they have in common is...
NOTHING WHATSOEVER!
Therefore, I have figured out why PA has terminated those contracts: to drive us crazy. They, in their infinite wisdom, figured out that people at AW will lose sleep making charts and graphs and trying to figure out what connects these three people. As we become more sleep deprived, we become less productive, and we miss our writing deadlines, thus making it more likely that we lose our writing jobs and have to go back to working the graveyard shift in a vitamin factory (shush... I did that). Then we're so tired that we lose the energy to log on to AW and warn people about the evils of PA.
Well, not this time! I have foiled this plan! The answer is 86!
--
Erm, to be more scientific:
The people with canceled contracts do not have similar publication dates, they are not in the same geographic areas, they do not all belong to any particular group, they have different histories of fighting PA, and two of the three were not particularly active in the fight against PA anymore. My wee brain is spinning.
I still have a couple of theories not yet examined, this in particular: I'd like to study the cover art of all three writers to see if PA is nervous about getting sued over something.
OK, I have the answer!
I have info on three people who recently had contracts terminated by PA, and what they have in common is...
NOTHING WHATSOEVER!
Therefore, I have figured out why PA has terminated those contracts: to drive us crazy. They, in their infinite wisdom, figured out that people at AW will lose sleep making charts and graphs and trying to figure out what connects these three people. As we become more sleep deprived, we become less productive, and we miss our writing deadlines, thus making it more likely that we lose our writing jobs and have to go back to working the graveyard shift in a vitamin factory (shush... I did that). Then we're so tired that we lose the energy to log on to AW and warn people about the evils of PA.
Well, not this time! I have foiled this plan! The answer is 86!
--
Erm, to be more scientific:
The people with canceled contracts do not have similar publication dates, they are not in the same geographic areas, they do not all belong to any particular group, they have different histories of fighting PA, and two of the three were not particularly active in the fight against PA anymore. My wee brain is spinning.
I still have a couple of theories not yet examined, this in particular: I'd like to study the cover art of all three writers to see if PA is nervous about getting sued over something.
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Jenna, Jenna, Jenna. And Em, too. It's really very simple. There's a dartboard. Wim closes his eyes and throws a dart. What ever book title tacked to the dartboard it hits gets released.
I understand, and I really didn't look at it long enough to check if their was a copyright inside because it was a PA book. I was actually looking at the fantasy books publshed by Tor, Daw, Baen, and Roc. These are the companies I am submitting my manuscript to along with some smaller but legit publishers like Mundania Press.SeanDSchaffer said:
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