The New Never-Ending PublishAmerica Thread (NEPAT)

I'm not a PA author. But I do have a strong desire to be published, because I'd like readers. I really want my words to be read. I can sort of imagine how I'd feel if I was accepted by a publisher. It would be a dream come true, all my hard work paying off, and validation that I can, in fact, write to a publishable standard. I know it will just be the start of a lot more hard work, but that's okay, it's more than worth it.

PA tells writers their dream has come true. It decieves them about the true nature of publishing, and does as much as it can to take its author's money. Its behaviour to those authors who ask legitimate questions is appalling.


I can only imagine how I would feel if I believed I was being published by a commercial publisher, all that happiness and pride, and then found out it was a lie. But that bit I can imagine is terrible. And it really could have happened. There was a point where I didn't know anything about publishing, but was thinking of submitting to agents and publishers. If I'd come across PA's website then, I would have had next to no defences against their deceptions. I'm very lucky I discovered that I had a lot to learn, and that I found out what PA really is.

This thread gives writers information, and knowledge is the best defence against PA.

aruna said:

Did it count, if the authors bought those books themselves?

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They were never consistent on whether they did or not.

The program had other problems. Only one book chain was involved (Walden's, if memory serves), there were maximum and minimum orders, the returnable period was ridiculously short, and the books had to be paid for, in full, up front, and ordered directly from PA. In short, so many conditions so far out of the norm that it was unlikely that many books were ordered under it.

The same trick as now, really. They want the "returnable" name without the problems that come with dealing with returns.

Those snail mail letters that PA sent asking if the writer would submit their book may be useful in getting the USPS to open an investigation. I urge every PA writer who received such a letter to give a copy of it to the local USPS Post Master asking them to investigate PA. Also, provide them with a copy of your contract and perhaps a copy of the POZKIN site page where Phil Dolan won in arbitration. Meiners' statement about selling to authors might be useful in proving that the company intended to defraud writers because they were deceived into believing that their books would have a real chance of reaching brick-and-mortar book stores and retailers. Be sure to highlight Meiners' statement.

If enough writers across the country from sea to shining sea contact the postal authorities, something just might happen.

I never posted on the old NEPAT thread, or in the Overflow, but I have been following both since joining the Watercooler. The topic fascinated me, because I had once considered submitting to PA.

Around this time last year I finished final edits on my first novel (now resting comfortably in a drawer, suffering from FirstNovel-Itis). A small book about a small town, with a regional appeal (at least, in my own head). So I started looking at the idea of self-publishing. Not having any idea what Self Publishing actually meant, I found links to the sites for iUniverse, Xlibris, and Outskirts. I wrote for information. I compared. I learned what POD was, and the time and financial commitment it required (which quite frankly, I didn't have then, nor do I have now).

I looked at the books offered by those companies, and the quality of cover art and sample pages frightened me. The idea of shelling out my money to have my book set alongside some of those books.....<shudders> And to compound the insult, I got a phone call from my "contact person" at Xlibris some months back, asking for "Mister Kelly M---", and if I was still interested in their services. OUCH! I admit to having a unisex name, but dude! I'm a woman!!!

Anyway....where was I? Ah, yes. I started searching for alternatives. Actual legitimate publishers who "pay the author," rather than the other way around. I found PublishAmerica. I read every page, including the FAQ's, the testimonials, everything. It sounded like a good idea. I really good idea. I was this close....

But as my mother likes to say, a "still, strong voice" kept me from doing it. I thought about the reasons I didn't want to go POD (the cost, the associations with low quality literature, buying and reselling the books myself). All of those things came with PA. I couldn't find any PublishAmerica titles in bookstores. The random books I searched for on Amazon had few or no reviews. Sales rankings were awful. And once I thought hard about it, the idea of a $1 advance had me laughing until I fell out of my chair.

But most importantly, I believed in myself. I believe that I can find a legitimate publisher to buy my work. Maybe not that novel, but the next one, or the next one, or the next. However long it takes to learn my craft, perfect it, and get published and PAID for it. This is my career, and a shortcut like PA would have hurt me, as it has so many others.

Thank you, Mods, for having topics like NEPAT.

-Kelly

Also, on a side note, what do we think? Are they Transformers or Voltron?

I'm thinking that this new NEPAT thread would be a really good time to alter one element of our discussion about PublishAmerica:

THEY AREN'T A PUBLISHER!

This is one specific element that all of us keep sliding over the top of. Comparing Random House or Penguin with PublishAmerica isn't comparing apples to oranges. It's comparing apples to cats! PublishAmerica is nothing more or less than a formatting company. But they're certainly not a publisher. Let's look at the elements of what a publisher is.

From Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary:

"The business or profession of the commercial production and distribution of literature, information, musical scores or sometimes recordings or art."

What is "commercial production and distribution?" Well, here's the definition provided by the Association of American Publishers (as a requisite of membership) Emphasis, by the way, is NOT mine, but theirs:

All publishers — large and small, well established and just starting out — are encouraged to join us on this exciting journey.



[font=georgia, times new roman][size=-1]Who Is Eligible?[/size] [/font]

[font=georgia, times new roman]

[size=-1]Regular Membership in the Association is open to all U.S. companies actively engaged in the publication of books, journals, looseleaf services, computer software, audiovisual materials, databases and other electronic products such as CD-ROM and CD-I, and similar products for educational, business and personal use. This includes producers, packagers, and co-publishers who coordinate or manage most of the publishing process involved in creating copyrightable educational materials for distribution by another organization. [/size]

[size=-1] "Actively engaged" means that the candidate must give evidence of conducting an ongoing publishing business with a significant investment in the business. [/size][/font]

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Does PA meet this standard? No. PublishAmerica has no significant investment in the business. They are a reverse subsidy formatter. They don't edit, they don't copy edit. They have a small staff of people that format books to the standards of the printer. They have no distribution chain, no marketing team (except those that might exist to write solicitation letters to authors,) no warehouse, no infrastructure at all. They are a "reverse" formatter, because while the AUTHOR is not charged for the cost of book production, neither does PublishAmerica pay for it. No, the READER pays this cost via an abnormally high price for the end product, which is far and above the standard cost of a similar product on the market.

Perhaps it's time to consider changing our discussion from "is PA a good or bad publisher?" to "Is PA a publisher AT ALL?"

I say no. Any other votes?

I had that "funny feeling" when I submitted my mystery novel to PA. The feeling grew stronger when they accepted my novel within a day or two. Kind of fast, I thought, for a traditional publisher, but maybe my book was that good!

I made a media kit. Bookmarks. Business cards. I tried to get my book into local stores by handing a media kit and a free copy of my book (not free to me, of course) over to the managers. Not really a salesperson, I didn't push. I just explained that I was a local author who had written a book. Call me after you read it. We'll set up a signing.

I received no calls.

At this point, I blamed the story. It wasn't written well enough. The stores had a free copy. Had they enjoyed the story, they would have been breaking down my door to get a hold of this wonderful, new, local author! That could have been the case. Or it could have been the price, or the no return policy, or the "mistaken" notion that PA was POD (mistaken, of course, because PA has "nothing in common" with POD publishers.

The relationship I had with PA began to deteriorate. I had joined NAIBA (North Atlantic Independent Booksellers) and planned on attending a conference/tradeshow in AC. I asked PA if they would be attending (many publishers did) and received this reply:

"Unfortunately, we will not be able to attend the tradeshow in September, though you are more then welcome to go to promote your book!" I remember thinking "gee...uh, thanks for allowing me to promote my book."

Then I was banned from their message board. Several times. For asking questions about copyright, I received this little ditty from Author Support:

"We have temporarily revoked your message board privileges to protect you
against yourself a little. You had reached the point where you risked coming
across as a whiner, a hairsplitter, and as someone who doles out innuendo.
You probably didn't mean that, so we called a time-out. Sometimes, that does the trick."

After my "time out", I stated that authors sometimes get banned from the Message Board and received this:

"Contrary to your statement, you have not "seen several authors banned from here for stating their opinion." You may have seen a very small number of posts removed that made statements of fact that were simply, factually, untrue, to the point of being comedy. Your statement quoted here is a prime example of such an occurrence."

In other words, "We certainly don't ban authors. Oh...by the way...you are banned."

Then, finally, I received the infamous "tone letter"

"Do not address us in such a tone. We are not deceptive in any way. If you
cannot be truthful and get along with us, then perhaps we should rethink
publishing your book." And I truly hate myself for this now, but why, oh why didn't I take them up on that? I had the opportunity to say "maybe we should rethink this" but I didn't!!! I was too scared to have my book be not published anymore! Does that make any sense at all?

And what I had done to me was nothing. My book didn't have typos added. I never had the problem of not getting books when I needed them (because I didn't need them - although that fact doesn't make me feel any better). I didn't have false cops show up at my door to harrass me because I was creative enough to beat PA at their own game. I didn't have PA not pay me royalties when they should have (as I haven't sold any books).

At the very least, PA is unprofessional with their authors. The nasty e-mails they send regarding questions every author has the right to ask and receive answers to still astounds me. For this reason alone, every author should stay away.

At the very most, they are scammers and thieves.

Somewhere between "least" and "most", PA will have you doubting yourself as a writer. They may cause a block so thick and hard, that it might take you months or even years to feel you are creative enough to write a book, an article, or even a stinking sentence you could even think of submitting.
:

So stay away. Stay faaaaaarrrrrr away.

PA=Printer & Nothing More

A very warm welcome to all the new posters here You're in the right place and will find loads of support here at AW.



I signed w/ PA in November of 2003. Not nearly as much info on them then as there is now.

Never bought (1) copy of my book. Encouraged others on the message board to do the same. Banned many times for doing so.

Local Borders bought 100 copies. Local B&N bought a few copies.

Friends and family bought via the infamous "list" I submitted. Local paper I had submitted the required information to PA on never received/printed my press release. Total sold that I know of-204.

Amount of marketing by PA (0) even though their contract specifically states it is up to the author to be available for media appearances, booksignings and such that PA may set up.

I spoke to 2 reading groups @ Borders.

I was invited by Borders to participate in 1st Author Roundtable along w/ 2 other authors. The CEO has now begun the institution of this program @ other stores across the country. Did I or Borders hear a peep from PA? No.

July 15, 2005 My contract was cancelled by PA via certified mail w/o prior notice or warning. My rights were fully returned w/o a gag order.

Present-PA continues to sell my book online w/o paying me royalties.

I have rewritten my book and it is self published through Lulu to satisfy local orders while I query it out to agents.

I'm not a published writer, but when I was looking for publishers for a MS (that I have since decided is not ready to see the light), I came across Lulu. At the time, I thought it was a commercial publisher. If I had come across PA, I would've certainly signed with them without a second though.

I have been following the old NEPAT and the Overflow for quite a long time, and I'm grateful at all the people who take their time to post these things here so that newbies like me will be warned against scams like PA.

This makes me sad...

From the PAMB:

Last year Publish America rejected my 3rd and 4th book. So someone recommended another place. What hurt was the book was rejected on my birthday and today, on my mom's birthday, I get rejected again. I'm beginning to wonder if I should just pack it in and call it a day. I'm feeling very down and out right now. I could use some advice and encouragement, oh fellow bards. This is all I've ever wanted to do my entire life. My first and second book was done with PA and I so wanted to continue to trend. Ah, but it was not to be. Where in the world do I go from here????

YOU'RE NOT BUYING ENOUGH OF YOUR OWN BOOKS!!!!

That's the only reason PA won't continue printing your work.

As to where to go from here.... Try finding a real publisher. Please.

Nancy

Cathy C said:

...Perhaps it's time to consider changing our discussion from "is PA a good or bad publisher?" to "Is PA a publisher AT ALL?"

I say no. Any other votes?

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Crypto vanity press? (Crypto because it disguises its vanity press nature by adding on its fees at the back end and via deceptive contract and practices.)

Yours is an excellent analysis. PA is not a publisher in the generally accepted, dictionary-defined sense of the term.

--Ken

What's really sad about the author whose third and fourth books were rejected by PA is that they're likely to be better than her first two. And now she's thinking of packing it in. I really hope she doesn't.

Cathy C said:

What is "commercial production and distribution?" Well, here's the definition provided by the Association of American Publishers (as a requisite of membership) Emphasis, by the way, is NOT mine, but theirs:


Does PA meet this standard? No.

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Cathy, let me state up front that I agree with your assessment. Unfortunately, the AAP does not:

http://www.publishers.org/member/members.cfm#16


Which begs the question: are annual dues more important than basic qualifications? Apparently so.

From PAMB

I started reading the message boards around 2002. I don't see many posters from that time still posting. Granted, many are busy writing, which is a wise thing to do, but I sure miss their company. If you are an old-timer, please check in. If you know some of the whereabouts of some of the old-timers. Let us know about it.

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I wonder if he/she has ever heard of PA's Banning campaigns on authors.

SC Harrison said:

Cathy, let me state up front that I agree with your assessment. Unfortunately, the AAP does not:

http://www.publishers.org/member/members.cfm#16


Which begs the question: are annual dues more important than basic qualifications? Apparently so.

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It does indeed beg the question. I should have checked the membership roster before I posted. To say I'm surprised would be an understatement. I have to wonder what sort of "proof" they require if a reverse-subsidy could qualify.

Hey...

Want a new place to put infor about PA? Check out this site!

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/php/a_report.php

and

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/scam_alerts/scam_alerts.htm

akaa1a said:

Want a new place to put infor about PA? Check out this site!

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/php/a_report.php

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See:
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2005/publish.html

NancyMehl said:

This makes me sad...

From the PAMB:

Last year Publish America rejected my 3rd and 4th book. So someone recommended another place. What hurt was the book was rejected on my birthday and today, on my mom's birthday, I get rejected again. I'm beginning to wonder if I should just pack it in and call it a day. I'm feeling very down and out right now. I could use some advice and encouragement, oh fellow bards. This is all I've ever wanted to do my entire life. My first and second book was done with PA and I so wanted to continue to trend. Ah, but it was not to be. Where in the world do I go from here????

YOU'RE NOT BUYING ENOUGH OF YOUR OWN BOOKS!!!!

That's the only reason PA won't continue printing your work.

As to where to go from here.... Try finding a real publisher. Please.

Nancy

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Or else: create a pen name, with a new email address to go with it, and submit under that new identity.

I’m sure you’ve read how “traditional” publishers market their author’s books, and how it is not the author’s job to sell books. Other writer sites are great about pushing this ineffective concept, implying Publish America is a detriment to their authors because PA authors must do the heavy lifting when it comes to book promotion.

Have you read the January 2006 Writer’s Digest. There is an interesting article “The State of The Industry,” by Tom Connor. Connor discusses two of the best selling Warner books in recent years, both originally self-published: “Rich Dad, Poor Dad,” by Robert T. Kiyosaki and Sharon L. Lechter, and “The Celestine Prophesy,” by James Redfield. How did these books become bestsellers? Guerrilla Marketing.

I have a feeling that the two cited examples that were self-published, were indeed, just that--self-published with all the control left to the author. Although I haven't looked these titles up. Then why did they go to Warner, if they were such successful self-published titles?

To imply that traditional publishers are inaffective at promotion and marketing, is to spit in the eye of the industry in general.

PA does not even fit into this concept of self-promotion since they cannot even make their books available to any sales outlet aside from cyber sales, and direct author purchases.

BTW, Raven, ALL PUBLISHERS welcome additonal promotion by the author, and suggest ways to do this that does not interfer with their campaigns. I was allowed to mail out flyers to every major newspaper in the U.S. inviting the reviewers to solicit my publisher for a free review copy. IT WORKED! Many authors like to do signings and readings. One of my publishers had a publicity department and I was assigned an agent to prep me for TV and radio interviews. Cost to me? OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Tri

Both Rich Dad, Poor Dad and The Celestine Prophecy fall in the category of specialized non-fiction, and both were truly self-published, with the author doing distribution, taking returns, and setting reasonable prices. They are both well outside of the norm. Very few self-published books are picked up by major publishers, and very few books from major publishers were self-published first. I think we can name all of them.

If those two works had been published through PA, the short discount and high prices would have worked against them getting enough sales to come to anyone's attention, while the poorly-written seven-year contract would have made a legitimate publisher less likely to acquire them had anyone noticed them.

Tilly said:

What's really sad about the author whose third and fourth books were rejected by PA is that they're likely to be better than her first two. And now she's thinking of packing it in. I really hope she doesn't.

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I would agree with this in principle, but another downside to PA is that some of the authors, going by the PAMB, regard themselves as more or less the finished article. As a result a few of them seem to be trying to pump out books like shopping lists in order to get the next one published. The downside to that could be that, in some cases, their next books may be inferior.

PA rejections

These won't last on the PAMB; they're getting a clue. Better archive 'em before they go:

I just wanted to add that I agreed with x xxxxxx. I think the reason PA might have rejected your work is perhaps due to sales (though I could be wrong). I would recommend that authors aggressively promote their books for a year before submitting another manuscript for publication. . . .

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and

My third submission to PA was rejected for the same reason--It didn't fit into their criteria. It would be helpful if they said just what their citeria is but I guess that would be to specific for them. I have a feeling it may be sales as well--and I suspect it may be that you and I didn't buy enough if our own books. I hate to say it but PA does seem to thrive on author purchases. I can't afford to buy many of my own so all sales are through regular outlets. I have noticed many PA authors indicating that they buy boxes of their own titles which is great! I have no problem with people doing so to promote their own work. But publishers should promote their authors as much as possible too. I do know,having said this, that most publishers require their authors to self-promote to a great extent so none of us should be surprised, but I think self promotion is more than buying our own books. It is in the form of book signings, attending book events, local and regional media attention, websites and even word of mouth.

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(sigh)

Wow, that second poster has is right on the money. Too bad her wisdom will soon be gone from the boards. Guaranteed she'll be getting a tone letter, or even banned quite soon.

And now I wait for the onslaught of "You don't believe in yourself or your work enough!" and "PA gave your work a chance - bow down to them." posts.

It's sad that we can predict their behavior this way.

Publish America

MMo said:

Preserving this before it gets edited again or deleted.

Is this person for real? Surely it must be royalty time at PA.

(wandering off, singing a variation on "The Teddy Bears' Picnic")


Oh, my. That came across as particularly harsh if the poster _is_ for real. Please familiarize yourself with the business of publishing. Try some critique groups, some face-to-face writers' organizations, perhaps a class or two if you can find one nearby. Read the many other discussions on this board. Please.

The agent's job is not to teach you your craft; it is to sell the product of that craft. The agent's income shouldn't come from critiquing, or from referring you to editors; it should come from selling your manuscript to a publisher who will pay money for it, in advances and in royalties. A publisher's job is not to make a product available to an author so the author can do _all_ the work of promoting and selling the book; the publisher's job is to make the book available to the public in such a way that all concerned with the sale make money: the writer, the publisher, the bookstore.

Mo

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Actually, I am a very real person, and ouch, that hurt. My husband says I am too trusting, but I would rather get stung, while being trusting, than go through life being suspicious of the motives of others. In regards to your suggestions of taking writing classes, joining critique groups etc., I can assure you that I have done all that, and at great cost to myself, over the past 14 years. Writing workshops, for example, typically cost in the neighbourhood of $400-$500 for a 3 or 4 day course. In critique groups or writing circles, you are dealing with amateurs who may know no more or even less about writing than you do yourself. Professional editing costs between $500-$600 (I checked) in Canada. Every where you turn, there are services offered to help writers improve their craft, all at a fee, of course. What about the writers who make their living by telling other writers about rules for writing? I guess I am kind of a rebel, because as soon as somebody tells me the way it is supposed to be, I think that it should not. Perhaps, as you say, it is not a publisher's job to sell authors their own books. But is it their job to censor the marketplace, to publish only authors who they know will sell a hundreds of thousands of copies, thereby making sure that the reading public only has access to books that are geared to the masses? What if my book might appeal to a segment of the population? Should those readers be denied a chance to read my book, just because the approved publishers opt to turn me down? I can assure you, Jim, that I am proud of the title of my book, and also that I have no intention of deleting my post. I wish you the very best in all your writing endeavours, and thank you for all the information, but I will perhaps foolishly, go ahead with my dream. P A - full steam ahead. Or, as Paulo Coelho puts it in his introduction to The Alchemist, "But if you believe yourself worthy of the thing you fought so hard to get, then you become an instrument of God, you help the Soul of the World, and you understand why you are here." For me, it is not about cynicism. Perhaps I will be proven wrong.

Janet Bellinger
Teacher on the Run
Rain
Silver Sighs

Wow, Janet -- I don't even know where to start -- except to say that I am glad I went back and edited my earlier post.

If you are determined to go with PA after reading these threads, and after hearing the warnings posted by others who have gone that route, who have suffered, and who have learned, obviously you will go that route.

However, if you have a marketable manuscript that may not be suitable for "masses," why not try a reputable small publisher first? Those of us in the midlist would only hope to see "hundreds of thousands" of copies sold; we're more likely to see "tens of thousands," and some small publishers are quite happy with "thousands." The point is, the reputable small publisher will have a vested interest in making those sales and so will participate in the marketing of your book.

Why tie yourself up with a less-than-stellar printer for seven years when there are other options? Heck, if you just want to see it out there, go to Lulu, and, if you're really determined, pay the fee for whatever that upper tier distribution charge is, and go from there. With the work you'd have to do for a PA printed book dedicated to your own book, you'll see more sales and realize more money, and if you want to, you can shut down the Lulu edition at any time.

Or really, truly, self-publish the book--although I suspect that way will have a sharper learning curve than the steps I proposed in my last post.

I was fortunate; I found a state-wide writers' organization that had a terrific conference each year, with workshops and networking, and I joined an early chapter of Romance Writers of America that had a greater percentage of published authors than unpublished ones at that time.

Nobody ever said that starting a career would be either easy or inexpensive. There are, however, ways of making it more difficult and more expensive, and I think the posters here have more than adequately proven that going with PA is one of those ways.

Mo

janetbellinger said:

Actually, I am a very real person, and ouch, that hurt. My husband says I am too trusting, but I would rather get stung, while being trusting, than go through life being suspicious of the motives of others.

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Welcome, Janet. I'm sorry that stung, but in this case, it's the truth that hurts, not vague suspicions. Publish America is not a genuine publisher. They are a scam operation that makes money from selling to its authors.

In regards to your suggestions of taking writing classes, joining critique groups etc., I can assure you that I have done all that, and at great cost to myself, over the past 14 years.

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I too have participated in workshops and critique groups. Some cost money, but not all of them. Some consist solely of amateurs, but many include well-published pros who participate so they can pay forward the help they received when they were just starting out.

Perhaps, as you say, it is not a publisher's job to sell authors their own books. But is it their job to censor the marketplace, to publish only authors who they know will sell a hundreds of thousands of copies, thereby making sure that the reading public only has access to books that are geared to the masses?

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I'm sorry, but I hear this kind of "grand conspiracy" complaint so many times, it makes me want to spork my eyes out. Publishers do not "censor." Publishers love to find new talent. Of course they try to make money -- that's how they can pay their authors decent advances and royalties -- but that doesn't mean they aren't interested in good stories. What we writers need to do is write books that stand out from the rest. Me, I'm still working on that part, but I think I can break into commerical publishing.

What if my book might appeal to a segment of the population?

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Then you find the right niche publisher(s).

Should those readers be denied a chance to read my book, just because the approved publishers opt to turn me down?

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The problem with PA is that so many readers will *not* get a chance to read your book. It won't get good distribution (heck, it won't get any). Bookstores won't get competitive discounts. The so-called return policy is yet another ploy, with so many restrictions, it will never do the authors any good. And the cover prices are so high, that even if ordinary readers hear about your book, they'll get turned off by the cost.

I wish you the very best in all your writing endeavours, and thank you for all the information, but I will perhaps foolishly, go ahead with my dream. P A - full steam ahead.

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I wish you the best of luck. Please do check in after six months or a year and let us know how things are going.

--Beth