The New Never-Ending PublishAmerica Thread (NEPAT) [Archive] - Page 3

PVish

02-16-2006, 05:58 AM

I've been poking around a bit on the "Writing Discussion -Spititual" forum over at the PAMB. A lot of threads have been locked because posters actually mentioned the Bible. But if you're discussing "spiritual" writing. . . ?

Infocenter always has the last word before threads are locked. Here are some of Infocenter's quotes:

J****: last time now, relate it to your own writing, and you'll be fine. Do not turn this forum into Sunday School or a seminary. Discuss your own books, and those of your peers, discuss life as a published author of a spiritual work, but do not teach, preach, or pray, or bring in other preachers. Keep it books related -- your OWN books, that is.

This was addressed earlier to the above writer:
J****/others, relate it to your own writing, and you'll be fine. Just don't turn this forum into Sunday School or a seminary. Discuss your own books, and those of your peers, discuss life as a published author of a spiritual work, but do not teach, preach, or pray. Keep it books related -- your own books, that is.

Keep this forum book writing related, folks.
Topic locked.

Thread locked, topic does not relate to book writing.

Why doesn't PA want its spiritual authors to mention the Bible on a spiritual board? If spiritual writers are basing what they write on the Bible, shouldn't they be allowed to at least mention it?

Sassenach

02-16-2006, 06:01 AM

I guess what you all say is true, if PA accepted my book, it must be bad. You win.

Good luck to all of you in your writng and publishing endeavors. I'm just too tired to try and defend every word I say on here.

No one here said anything unkind to you.

Why do so many ex-PA'ers treat criticism of PA as a personal attack?

AmandaPA

02-16-2006, 06:50 AM

Why, Tilly? Because in order to be put into the Borders database (and you can go to www.bordersstores.com (http://www.bordersstores.com/) to see if any book is available through their store or for order for in-store pickup) the publisher (or the author, as JM did) has to send a copy (or is it two?) plus media kit, plus paperwork, including a marketing plan, to the main offices of Borders, I think in NYC. Buyers look over the book, decide if it will sell and make a decision whether or not to carry the book. Takes about two months - sometimes less.

If it's yes, the book is given a BINC - some kind of Borders internal number - and put in the database for all brick and mortars to order from. They may order it to stock, they may leave it as an 'order-only' book.

PA does none of this for any of their books. That's why. PA author walks into Borders store and asks if they can do a signing. Manager looks up ISBN in database and sees that the book is not in their special Borders system. No go.

Yes, Borders uses Amazon for its online store. So any book in Amazon can also be found at www.borders.com (http://www.borders.com/). You want the real deal, look at the link I posted above - www.bordersstores.com (http://www.bordersstores.com/) .

Christine, I went to the bordersstores.com link and my book is listed there listed as in print and for pick up order in store. What did your post mean? I'm confused.

Ilovepensandpaper

02-16-2006, 07:29 AM

No one here said anything unkind to you.

Why do so many ex-PA'ers treat criticism of PA as a personal attack?
I hear people say things like 'you know so-and-so got so mad/angry/testy because they know they are wrong'. I mean, at first something in my gut was telling me that something didn't seem right with PA. When I first saw Lucia's message on my guestbook, I dismissed it, thinking she was just a hater. I did get a little huffy, thinking that someone was always trying to bust my balloon. I told my sisters about that message, and kept defending PA, even though I know darn well I had concerns(promotion, only contacted through email, no legitimate advance...). I kept going back to Lucia's message for a while. I finally decided to go to her site, and the rest is history, as they say. Thank goodness for you, Lucia, if you are reading this!
Anyway, perhaps deep down in some of our lurkers and spies' souls, and in that tiny corner of their minds, they know something just isn't right.

Oh yeah, I looked up my book at bordersstores.com. It isn't there.

Ilovepensandpaper

02-16-2006, 07:51 AM

PAMB welcome:
Welcome to PublishAmerica's Author Message Board! Here PublishAmerica authors can voice your questions or comments. You must Register BEFORE posting messages. We will address any topic sent to us by email to our support team. Disclaimer: Posting on this message board indicates agreement to allow PublishAmerica to use the posted text for marketing or other purposes, at its discretion.

I did have a comment: To come look at my website! Anyway, isn't marketing wonderful when you can use your positive feedback for marketing and other purposes? Seriously, what other purposes does Publish America mean?

I checked out the poetry thread at the PAMB, where I posted a few times. I saw one of my old posts there, with the link to my website! You would have thought PA would have deleted that...

Geez, I hope PA doesn't use my first posts for anything. Those were before reality sank in.

Sher2

02-16-2006, 08:29 AM

I checked out the poetry thread at the PAMB, where I posted a few times. I saw one of my old posts there, with the link to my website! You would have thought PA would have deleted that...

Geez, I hope PA doesn't use my first posts for anything. Those were before reality sank in.
I hate to tell you this, but if they find it expedient, they will. Is the "Testimonials" section still up on the PA site? If so, take a look at it. Many of those so-called "testimonials" are PAMB posts by people who are now (and were at the time those posts were appropriated) thoroughly disgusted by PA and who cringe every time they see that BS.

Canada James

02-16-2006, 08:41 AM

I'm not disappointed or upset; it's the way most people respond. It has nothing to do with the price of the books or the publisher. Close friends want to be able to show/give as presents books by someone they know who has written a book. Any book: good, bad or indifferent.

This is true that everyone feels they are close enough to you that they should get a free book. I've had friends tell me that they were going <insert place here> and maybe I'd like them to show a copy of my book around.

My answer: my publisher has reps who do that for me. But thanks anyway, and I appreciate the thought.

As for having an endless supply of free copies, that's not something that even legitimate publishers offer their authors. However, when I need freebies (I use them as door prizes when I do workshops) my publisher sells them to me at 50% off and the cost is deducted against my royalties.

See the difference?

Canada James

Canada James

02-16-2006, 08:53 AM

I'm certain that you only remember two, Amanda, but far more than two such letters were sent -- and have been posted and discussed in these threads -- in that time. The most recent of them was in January of this year.

I have them on file:

September 14th, 2005 "PublishAmerica Makes All Books Returnable": Please bear with us as we must do this gradually, in order to enable our wholesaler Ingram to accurately activate the new status on roughly eleven thousand books that are currently in print, starting with the titles that are selling more than 40 copies in September (libraries and individuals who order more than 40 copies this month are receiving a 40 pct discount; phone orders only at xxx xxx xxxx).

November 30th, 2005: "PublishAmerica, Hollywood, and a Million Households":To ensure delivery in time before the holidays, this offer expires December 8. Phone orders only at xxx xxx xxxx. Full-color books are excluded."

January 24th, 2006: "PublishAmerica and the Million Dollar Milestone": On all orders of 60 or more copies placed by the author, we will allow a 45 pct discount, plus we will pay royalties on those books! These royalties will be included in February's check!"

Ilovepensandpaper

02-16-2006, 08:59 AM

I hate to tell you this, but if they find it expedient, they will. Is the "Testimonials" section still up on the PA site? If so, take a look at it. Many of those so-called "testimonials" are PAMB posts by people who are now (and were at the time those posts were appropriated) thoroughly disgusted by PA and who cringe every time they see that BS.
Sher2,
Yeah the Testimonials section is still there... I am looking at it now.

Canada James

02-16-2006, 09:08 AM

"....although we have enjoyed working with you in the past, it has been several years since we have seen any work from you. We now feel that you are past the age that the readers at large can identify with."

Wow. I'm very sorry that you received a letter like that.

Please don't give up. In the children's writing world of BC, you'd still be considered a young 'un. I'm just a kid with a couple books to my name an a few offers on my desk. Most of the other authors in this province are well into their 60s and still going strong. (Just recently I found a book that was written by a colleague in 1978 - when he was my age now and I was 6!)

Being published by PA just means you submitted a book to PA. So keep writing until you find a publisher willing to buy your work.

Canada James

Ilovepensandpaper

02-16-2006, 09:35 AM

I hate to tell you this, but if they find it expedient, they will. Is the "Testimonials" section still up on the PA site? If so, take a look at it. Many of those so-called "testimonials" are PAMB posts by people who are now (and were at the time those posts were appropriated) thoroughly disgusted by PA and who cringe every time they see that BS.
Sher2,
There were A LOT of testimonials on PA. I looked at a few pages. Everyone is so happy, thankful, elated, excited - you name it- there. Humph! Oh well, you know the deal with that anyway, LOL...

James D. Macdonald

02-16-2006, 01:54 PM

Christine, I went to the bordersstores.com link and my book is listed there listed as in print and for pick up order in store. What did your post mean? I'm confused.

Atlanta Nights is also listed at the boardersstores site, but it doesn't have a BINC number.

Jean Marie may be able to tell you how she got her book actually stocked on the shelves of her local Borders.

James D. Macdonald

02-16-2006, 02:04 PM

Personal for White Raven:

If you want to bring on PA's best debater, one-on-one, against me -- nothing but the facts -- hey, I'm right here.

Resolved: PublishAmerica is a vanity press.

We can do it live in chat if you'd like. Name the time and place.

Christine N.

02-16-2006, 03:31 PM

Christine, I went to the bordersstores.com link and my book is listed there listed as in print and for pick up order in store. What did your post mean? I'm confused.

Does it have a BINC? If it does, you got lucky. Most PA books do not, since it requires that PA do actual work and give away actual free copies of your book. If it does not have a BINC and for some reason is listed, well, I don't know what that means. I know that unless you have that number, some Borders managers don't want to hear from you. I know in this area that's the case. I can't imagine that it's not the case most everywhere, since the BINC is what Borders uses to scan books bought at their stores. They slap their own bar code sticker over the on printed on the book.

I only know about this process because I've been through it. I didn't do the paperwork, but I heard about it from the publicity dept. of my publisher. And I talked to several Borders managers who said "call back when you have a BINC" (to schedule signings - which now the book does, and now I have Borders on my schedule)

Tilly wanted to know why a PA author couldn't get their book into Borders, because it wasn't in their system, and PA argued with them, probably looking at the "amazon/Borders" site.

orraloon

02-16-2006, 04:00 PM

...but live in hope.

A Frederick resident and fellow PA victim informs me that a new mayor has recently been elected in that town. The writer is disgusted that the reputation of her lovely home town has been tainted by playing host to the PublishAmerica fraud. Anyone wishing to enlighten the new mayor, or at least make him aware that his town has become notorious mainly as a safe haven for criminal publishing scams such as PA should contact

Mayor W. Jeff Holtzinger

Email: Mayor@cityoffrederick.com

Phone: 301-694-1380 City Hall
101 North Court Street
Frederick, MD 21701-5415

SC Harrison

02-16-2006, 04:26 PM

Tilly wanted to know why a PA author couldn't get their book into Borders, because it wasn't in their system, and PA argued with them, probably looking at the "amazon/Borders" site.

Christine, you can go into a Borders and type my name/book title/ISBN into one of their customer-operated Title Sleuth machines and it shows up with a picture of the cover, blurb, etc. It says "Usually ships in 5-7 days", but I know when it comes to actually placing the order, Ingrams and B&T have it listed as "out of stock", with a notation to "order direct from publisher", which has to be done by phone or fax.

You go into a Barnes & Noble to order it, and it shows up as "in stock" at Lavergne, and they can order it right on the spot. I don't know if this has anything to do with the corporate relationship between B&N and Lightning Source, but I have a hunch it does.

DaveKuzminski

02-16-2006, 04:27 PM

Why do so many ex-PA'ers treat criticism of PA as a personal attack?

The answer is actually obvious when you think about it. If PA's status is lowered, then it means that their own status and that of their books are not equal to that of other authors and their books published by different publishers. It also means that they're being forced to recognize that their status is actually lower than that for authors who signed with Vantage or Dorrance and that their only equals are with American Book Publishing Group.

James D. Macdonald

02-16-2006, 04:33 PM

...their status is actually lower than that for authors who signed with Vantage or Dorrance....

Get real. Their status is exactly the same as people who've signed up with Vantage or Dorrance. Vanity press is vanity press.

DaveKuzminski

02-16-2006, 04:42 PM

I don't see any Vantage or Dorrance authors running around defending their printer. Nor do I see Vantage or Dorrance mistreating their authors in the same manner as PA or ABPG. On my scale of publishers and printers, PA and ABPG come in just about dead last with PA edging out ABPG only because PA has harmed more writers.

The status of PA authors may very well be equivalent to those of other vanity publishers, but it's an implied lesser value caused by PA's own status. In other words, an author who went with Vantage might state, "Sure, I paid, but at least I didn't go with PA."

Tilly

02-16-2006, 05:03 PM

I think PA also encourages its authors to identify with it, particularly through the message board. I've seen a few authors use 'we' when referring to PA.
Any achievement by a PA author is touted on the front web page as if it's an achievement by PA, who didn't lift a finger to help.

spike

02-16-2006, 05:12 PM

One of the reasons people get so defensive is that they don't want to admit they've been scammed. They pretend they knew exactly what they were getting into, and it was really what they wanted.

Scammers (not just the publishing scammers, but all scammers) depend upon this silence.

xhouseboy

02-16-2006, 05:32 PM

Any achievement by a PA author is touted on the front web page as if it's an achievement by PA, who didn't lift a finger to help.

Sale's technique designed to lure more into the scam. It's about their only positive technique, as they can't very well point to their own sales for any of their clients. It just wouldn't do. Over 50 copies sold, or 100, or whatever the figure may be.

goldpeace

02-16-2006, 05:43 PM

PVish~

Yes...I was addressed individually on the PAMB on the "spiritual board" as to not discuss spiritual matters-
Since I write spiritual books, it seemed rather ironic that I could not discuss the bible, my beliefs, or quote scripture.

Many of my posts were deleted when I questioned this.

I e-mailed PA privately but haven't received an answer yet.

I went so far as to say in my private e-mail that I have been very disappointed with PA ...but have never publicly bashed them....and for them to treat those who are connected to them (because they have a seven year contract with them) as out- of-control children, or humiliate them publicly on the message boards was unacceptable.

I am certainly not pleased with PA - and am glad that there is so much information out now that wasn't available when I signed with them, so that new writers can evaluate the risks of getting signed. My "take" was a little different, though- the reason I have not publically put PA down was because I felt although I agree they misrepresent themselves and that my work is obviously shelved with no hope of going anywhere for 7 years....I have learned a great deal because of my experience with them. (albeit what NOT to do) I have been connected to reputable groups and people because of my negative experience...and met many great people.

My take is to keep on writing...to take what I have learned from this & move on. The message boards, to me, was a way to stay connected to the many friends I have there...and to be able to discuss writing, in my case- spiritual...and now even that has come to a screaming halt.

There are so many intelligent, creative, and responsible people as PA authors...it makes me angry that along with everything else that has been manipulated...even connections with each other on the boards has turned into a joke.

I appreciate all of the correct and encouraging information on sites such as this one....and the best revenge, I suppose...is to be successful by being published by a mainstream publisher!

Christine N.

02-16-2006, 05:46 PM

Christine, you can go into a Borders and type my name/book title/ISBN into one of their customer-operated Title Sleuth machines and it shows up with a picture of the cover, blurb, etc. It says "Usually ships in 5-7 days", but I know when it comes to actually placing the order, Ingrams and B&T have it listed as "out of stock", with a notation to "order direct from publisher", which has to be done by phone or fax.

You go into a Barnes & Noble to order it, and it shows up as "in stock" at Lavergne, and they can order it right on the spot. I don't know if this has anything to do with the corporate relationship between B&N and Lightning Source, but I have a hunch it does.

Ah, I see. Yes, I would think the B&N/LS thing does have something to do with that. Some Borders won't order direct from the publisher. I had that very problem. Out in Pittsburgh, where LBF is located, Borders will order right from the publisher. Out here, the regional managers of both chains hold a tighter rein on what gets ordered. I asked - telling them about the Pittsburgh stores. The RM here says can't do it. So no BINC, no signings. So it's a regional thing, I guess.

I can see how some PA authors can't get some stores to order... despite the short discounts, etc...it's also the regional manager and the way they run things.

Tilly

02-16-2006, 05:52 PM

General Joy

02-16-2006, 06:47 PM

Saundra Julian

02-16-2006, 07:17 PM

A few AW members posted some snotty things about me when I was still active on the PAMB. Insulting? No, just little digs like “the cheerleader”, “the welcome wagon”, or “HB’s successor” (that one really hurt)…

Actually, I thought I was being kind and helpful to the other authors. It never occurred to me that I was helping PA recruit more victims by participating on those boards and coming across, to the public, as a happy camper.

After coming to this site and reading a few posts, I began to wonder. Hummmm….

Remember, I was a neonate in the publishing world, so it took me a while to catch on to PA’s shoddy business practices.
I did knew PA would not promote my book when it came out, but that was all right with me, because I’ve been in sales and marketing most of my life, so no big deal…I would sale and market my own book!

What I didn’t know about was all the roadblocks PA would put in place to keep my book from ever being shelved by a book store!

The longer I stayed on the PAMB, the more reality began to seep through the cracks.

I soon began to notice how PA’s representative, the infamous Infocenter, ridiculed and humiliated people on their message boards. Their only crime was asking very polite, very sincere, and very pertinent questions about PA’s publishing practices.

One of the final straws came when PA allowed one of its “stooges” to hysterically rant and rave on the message boards, and not censor him in any way, even when he began to attack a certain group of women authors.
Okay, they got rid of him and I am placated for the moment.

Now, my proofs arrive…OMG the mistakes were unreal and certainly not ones that were in the original manuscript. There had been NO editing, NONE!

I wade through the proof, finding over 200 errors to be corrected.

The book finally makes it debut, containing seven errors, and sporting a blurred cover. Okay, I am still trying to feel proud of this book…it’s my baby!

The end finally came when the Barnes and Noble, small press dept. in NYC, informs me that the book only has a 5% discount to bookstores! I was mortified!

Now, I am beat, I admit defeat and ask PA for a release from my contract.

I finally receive a Settlement and Release Form from them, by registered mail, containing a gag order. Para 3 states I cannot say anything derogatory about PA. This order also gags my family, attorneys, agents, and/or employees. Oh yes, and I cannot post on any message board that discredits PA, either.

The "release" remains unsigned and I continue to write, hoping to find a REAL publisher…
Saundra Julian

Christine N.

02-16-2006, 07:27 PM

It's always interesting to me to see how the cycle goes along... I remember when Saundra, BeeBomb, and SoOts were posting on the PAMB. Just plodding along, being supportive of other authors, telling them not to listen to the naysayers (I can't remember if all three did it or not) and see them now, aware of what happened to them and mad as hell about it!

We do make a difference here. Some we get before they sign, and some see the light after. As long as we are not silent, the truth has a chance to be heard.

You go Saundra :)

Tilly

02-16-2006, 07:27 PM

About the PA forums being locked... it isn't just the Spiritual board. There are actually way more locked topics in the "politics" forum of the private board. They're cracking down for some reason, discouraging anyone from debating any kind of political or controversial topic, again stating that it "doesn't relate to writing." Not having enough relevance to writing has not stopped other posts from going through in the past.

I was wondering whether they didn't want debate and discussions because they use the message board as a marketing tool, and this in their minds might undermine that. But that doesn't make sense if they're doing the same on the private board.

LloydBrown

02-16-2006, 07:28 PM

I finally receive a Settlement and Release Form from them, by registered mail, containing a gag order. Para 3 states I cannot say anything derogatory about PA. This order also gags my family, attorneys, agents, and/or employees. Oh yes, and I cannot post on any message board that discredits PA, either.

The "release" remains unsigned and I continue to write, hoping to find a REAL publisher…

I have to wonder if that gag order has any teeth. Does it state what happens if you don't comply? Does the agreement (or your original contract) have a clause stating that violations of one clause don't terminate the entirety of the contract?

SeanDSchaffer

02-16-2006, 07:31 PM

Snipped for Length and Content....

Now, I am beat, I admit defeat and ask PA for a release from my contract.

I finally receive a Settlement and Release Form from them, by registered mail, containing a gag order. Para 3 states I cannot say anything derogatory about PA. This order also gags my family, attorneys, agents, and/or employees. Oh yes, and I cannot post on any message board that discredits PA, either.

The "release" remains unsigned and I continue to write, hoping to find a REAL publisher…
Saundra Julian

I'm sorry about the release they sent you. They sent the same thing to me, not too long ago. It makes no sense, half the stuff that's in that thing.

I made several changes and sent it back to them. They refused to allow it because of the changes, so my book is still in their hands.

But there is a bright side to this dilemma:

My book will be mine again, if they honor their own contract, in November of 2010. I look forward to that day so that I can re-write the work and make it far better than the original that I sent them. I might self-publish it, or there might be any number of other options for it when I get it back.

I hope you have an enjoyable day, Saundra, and I wish you all the best in your writing career. You can do it.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

Saundra Julian

02-16-2006, 07:35 PM

There is a $5000.00 fine imposed for every infraction to the gag order.
I'll have to check on the other clause, you asked about...

SeanDSchaffer

02-16-2006, 07:37 PM

I have to wonder if that gag order has any teeth. Does it state what happens if you don't comply? Does the agreement (or your original contract) have a clause stating that violations of one clause don't terminate the entirety of the contract?

My emphasis.

Yes to both.

To the first question, Lloyd, for each time the gag clause is broken in the signed agreement, PA can sue the violator for $5,000.00.

To the second question, both the contract and the release agreement have a clause stating that an allowance of any breach of contract does not void the contract as a whole.

Saundra Julian

02-16-2006, 07:40 PM

...and that means?

Sassenach

02-16-2006, 07:51 PM

My emphasis.

Yes to both.

To the first question, Lloyd, for each time the gag clause is broken in the signed agreement, PA can sue the violator for $5,000.00.

Obviously, the can sue. I think the question was more about whether they would or whether these are gratuitous threats.

SeanDSchaffer

02-16-2006, 07:55 PM

...and that means?

I would imagine it means that if PA allows a signer to breach the contract once, it doesn't allow it to happen again or void the contract.

I'll have to look up my contract and give you the exact wording. I believe it's on the last or second-to-last page. The clause is virtually the same in the release agreement as it is in the contract.

I'll be back in a few minutes with the said information.

(CAVEAT: I am not a lawyer, so I cannot say with authority what the clause means; to get the honest-to-goodness definition, a publishing lawyer is always the best way to go.)

LloydBrown

02-16-2006, 08:20 PM

That clause means that you violating the gag order doesn't invalidate the release. You can trash-talk them all you want without fear of them reclaiming the rights to your work. That works to your advantage.

Dealing with their lawsuit is a different story.

Will they sue? I doubt it, but it's not my $5,000-increments at stake here.

Personally, I think that you could not be held liable for anything somebody else said about PA, except for minor children under your care. If they tried to pursue that, you would win. You'd have to ask a lawyer about that (Jaws!)

Also, in the US, if it's true, it isn't defamation (which is just an umbrella term for slander and/or libel). In fact, you could work this to your advantage: if you claim that they make the majority of their income from sales to authors instead of sales to readers, then if they sue you, you could use their publicly-available information to prove your point [we've done that math here on AW].

I'd sign it, and I'd make certain that I could support any comment I made. Personally, I don't think they have the cojones to enter a courtroom unless they're ordered to.

goldpeace

02-16-2006, 08:33 PM

I don't understand what difference a gag order is suppose to make.
What could anyone possibly say about PA that hasn't already been revealed?
If there is nothing that PA is being dishonest about....why would they want their ex-authors to be silenced?
Hmm-

James D. Macdonald

02-16-2006, 08:41 PM

You'd have to be nuts in the head to sign their release.

Aconite

02-16-2006, 08:51 PM

Personally, I think that you could not be held liable for anything somebody else said about PA, except for minor children under your care. If they tried to pursue that, you would win. You'd have to ask a lawyer about that (Jaws!)No, you can't be held responsible for the actions of people who aren't bound by the contract. PA's counting on authors being so nervous about the fine that they get all the people they've told about their tribulations to stay quiet.

Also, in the US, if it's true, it isn't defamation (which is just an umbrella term for slander and/or libel). As I recall, PA's gag is on "derogatory remarks," though, and "derogatory" is not defined in the clause. They could hold that threat over your head for anything you say, true or not.

rekirts

02-16-2006, 09:02 PM

We do make a difference here. Some we get before they sign, and some see the light after. As long as we are not silent, the truth has a chance to be heard.

I posted this link over on NEPAT Overflow, but this is a really interesting site about people who perpetrate scams. http://www.fraudaid.com/Why-Con-artists-Scam.htm Right at the top it says:
Silence is fraud's greatest ally. Word-of-mouth is fraud's worst enemy. PASS THE WORD!

I posted some excerpts in Overflow, but I highly recommend people having a look at this site. It will take you into the workings of the minds of PA's three stooges.

AnnaWhite

02-16-2006, 09:04 PM

Okay, I've been spending some time reading this thread and the old NEPAT.
I personally found the NEPAT thread a very supportive place when I arrived here, burnt-out and depressed after realising I'd made a huge mistake with PublishAmerica.

I suppose the reason NEPAT is so active, is because PublishAmerica has trodden on the toes of so many. I don't know if NEPAT has contributed to the unpopularity of PA, but if it has, it simply is because some authors have felt so unhappy about their PA experience that they have needed to vent their frustration. It's a question of cause and effect. If one goes around upsetting people, there are likely to be a few screams sooner or later.

I think the question to ask is: "Why is there so much negative publicity about PA? Why is there an old AND a new never-ending thread about it?"

At first, I also had the idea that criticising PA would harm PA authors. In fact, I posted in an anti-PA forum, about one-and-a-half years ago, with this very concern.

Then the realities about PA, that you listed as thumbs down, hit home. I decided that any work trying to promote my book would be a waste of time and money. I wish I'd realised it a little bit sooner! Therefore, I think this forum does a sterling job about warning prospective PA authors not to sign the contract, and PA authors to save themselves money and time promoting an unmarketable product (because of its high price, lack of availability, lack of editing, being one out of 17,000 books published with no selectivity criteria, etc etc). One should, however, consider that the NEPAT posters are, after all, human, and nobody is perfect, and maybe sometimes a few sparks will fly even in the best of families.

I was shocked to hear of your experience with the publisher that turned you down. I don't know enough about the publishing world to comment about it, but reading your post awakened all my own fears, since I'm 52 and still unpublished. But, then, I've decided that I like writing for its own sake, even if I never get published. So there! And "bugger them all" (meaning all the mean publishers :tongue), as Churchill used to say.

Anyway, if you haven't done so yet, you may like to read a few of the stories written by PA authors who post here: True Stories about PublishAmerica (http://www.wizardessbooks.com/html/PA_stories.htm)

:)

Christine N.

02-16-2006, 09:22 PM

That gag clause is idiotic. How can they try to tell people who weren't involved to be quiet. The contract, and the release, are solely between the author and PA. No one else can be party to it if they don't know about it or sign it. Ridiculous. Sometimes I think Vic pulled his law degree out of a box of Fruity Pebbles.

And Sean - why not start your rewrite now? It'll make you feel better, and by the time the book is yours again it'll be ready to do with what you want. There's no law that says you can't do it now, in the privacy of your own home. Or in a year from now.

Christine N.

02-16-2006, 09:31 PM

Oy, I'm a little chatterbox today..
Well, at least SOMEONE is paying attention... http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=11176

You'd think that PA would have picked that up right away, WAY before they got to the cover design phase. Personally, I don't know if it's a total trademark infringement or if it's just a clever use. The candies are Herhey Kisses. Hershey's (the characters' name) Kiss probably isn't an infringement.

But I'd rather be safe than sorry.

DaveKuzminski

02-16-2006, 09:47 PM

I cannot understand this at all. How could such a discussion possibly be threatening to PA?

They don't want any arguments creating opposing cliques because one will eventually take a stance that produces negative promotion value. They're doing the same in the private boards to keep it from spilling over onto the other boards.

As it is, PA is quickly pushing both to an anti-PA stance. So, yay, Infomonster.

Aconite

02-16-2006, 09:50 PM

Or maybe they have to throttle back bandwidth. They've had to pay out a lot in settlements recently, you know.

Nexusman

02-16-2006, 09:56 PM

Or maybe they're keeping the "Spiritual" board locked to Bible topics because they don't like being reminded they don't have any morals.

-Nick

akaa1a

02-16-2006, 10:00 PM

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=11209

"Publish America graciously agreed to an interview for my newspaper, The Gazette and I spent several hours in their offices today. I had a chance to meet the people in charge and a lot of thier staff.
The interview will be in the March issue of The Gazette in print and online at www.mytownvoice.com. (http://www.mytownvoice.com./) It will be available March 1st.
Online, will be all the pictures I took while there as well as the complete interview.
Publish America, has in the past published one of my books so I looked at this opportunity from the standpoint of not only a reporter but an interested writer as well.
*** ****, Editor, The Gazette

?????????????????????????????????????????????
I wonder if this reporter/PA author will ask any of the hard news type questions of PA or if it will just be a love fest to promote himself?

Ah, the tangled webs we weave!

ResearchGuy

02-16-2006, 10:01 PM

...The "release" remains unsigned and I continue to write, hoping to find a REAL publisher…
Saundra Julian
Speak the truth and shame the devil.

While you are writing, and not gagged, how about some articles for newspapers and magazines, exposing the PA scam from your own experience. The gag clause itself is hook for an article. Maybe several. Or one sold multiple times to noncompeting markets. "My Book is Held Hostage, but Not my Freedom of Speech."

--Ken

DaveKuzminski

02-16-2006, 10:05 PM

No, you can't be held responsible for the actions of people who aren't bound by the contract. PA's counting on authors being so nervous about the fine that they get all the people they've told about their tribulations to stay quiet.

As I recall, PA's gag is on "derogatory remarks," though, and "derogatory" is not defined in the clause. They could hold that threat over your head for anything you say, true or not.

Keep in mind that they also state you can be held responsible for posting in any forum that contains derogatory remarks about PA which would mean posting a defense of PA on this board would not protect you from their derogatory clause if they decided to go after you. So, the best defense is to never sign that particular release and never let them gag you.

Tilly

02-16-2006, 10:09 PM

PA should have caught the trademark issue. This author was very nearly in a horrible situation.

As you mentioned, I took it upon myself to check with author support and make sure my title was researched. They didn't say whether or not, but just came out and asked me to change my title just in case. Now my book is pending until I come up with a title. I would rather change my title than get sued, as it wasn't my intention to infringe on the Hershey company.

She's now asking for help to find a new title.

akaa1a

02-16-2006, 10:12 PM

Alright! This :rant:REALLY frosts my tarts!
IF PA were such a mainstream publisher and IF PA had any sort of comprehension about copyrights, this would have NEVER happened to poor DeLyn!
Just think of all the money she's probably spent in marketing materials etc for a book that screams copyright infringement! My 12 year old son even understands about copyright law...why not PA?

DeLyn, this is something that should have been caught the moment you sent your manuscript contract back to PA. Break your contract since they didn't catch the infringement and move on!

**************************
http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=11208
Howdy, Fabulous People!

I have a dilemma. Due to unforeseen copyright issues, I have to change the title of my book: "Hershey Kiss"

Please read the blurb which appears at the end of this post and let me know what good suggestions you have for a new title.

Here's what I've come up with so far:

The Kiss (which has probably been used many times)
Second Chance (which has probably also been used many times)
The Way We Began (began is passive, but I like this idea)
It All Started with a Kiss
Back Into Your Arms

That's all I have. I would love to hear from my fellow co-workers. Please leave me lots of good title options!

Thanks in advance,

DeLyn

Tilly

02-16-2006, 10:14 PM

Nexusman

02-16-2006, 10:21 PM

Kevin Yarbrough

02-16-2006, 10:22 PM

PA didn't know about the copyright issue until they read it here. Willy, you know you really should hire us as your lawyers because we are saving your a$$ more than Vic ever has. But we won't do anything unethical like Vic does though (like sending a cop to an authors house on a fraud charge he knew was not real), so, you make the choice.

Aconite

02-16-2006, 10:22 PM

And this isn't the first time something like this has happened. It's not a one off mistake. There was the Orlando Bloom cover, and all that author had to go through, and there was another one recently.Ah, yes, the Wonder Woman cover. And wasn't there one with the dinosaurs from Jurassic Park, too?

No real publisher would have used such covers. Real publishers have legal departments and common sense about copyright and trademark.

Sheryl Nantus

02-16-2006, 10:23 PM

is the Wonder Woman cover still up?

Nexusman

02-16-2006, 10:30 PM

is the Wonder Woman cover still up?

Sure is:

http://www.publishamerica.com/greetingcardpro/createcard1.asp?PostCardID=12765

That's not even a good picture, if you ask me.

-Nick

NancyMehl

02-16-2006, 11:02 PM

Or maybe they're keeping the "Spiritual" board locked to Bible topics because they don't like being reminded they don't have any morals.

-Nick

The odd thing about not allowing the discussion to get too spiritual on the "Spiritual Board," is that around 2000 - 2001, PA was purported to be primarily an inspirational publisher! Anyway, that's what I was told. That information was passed around on quite a few forums.

Nancy

DaveKuzminski

02-16-2006, 11:06 PM

I have a dilemma. Due to unforeseen copyright issues, I have to change the title of my book: "Hershey Kiss"

Unforeseen? There's nothing unforeseen about this. It's referencing a product. Nine hundred and ninety-nine times out of a thousand, it will be trademarked. In this particular case, it's referencing a very well know, well advertised product that only someone in a coma for the last century or just born wouldn't recognize.

Beyond that, PA is equally culpable because they reinforced the connection by using a background that appears to be chocolate. In other words, they can't lay the blame for this on the author any more than the Jurassic Park T-Rex or the Wonder Girl covers. If PA approves of the cover, they've accepted a share of the blame and that includes a responsibility for paying any damages expecially since they're the ones with the deeper pockets.

I'm beginning to suspect that Victor was last in his class when it came to passing grades for trademark, copyright, and patent law. Maybe he played hooky on that day?

Tilly

02-16-2006, 11:10 PM

Christian Book Publishers

We here at Publish America are proud of our strong reputation as Christian book publishers. The majority of other Christian book publishing companies take the enjoyment out of getting published, and at other Christian book publishing companies the process can become very difficult for first time authors. Our goal is to ensure that when you take advantage of our services - ranging from Catholic book publishing to hymn book publishing - that the process remains as easy and rewarding as possible for you. As an added benefit, as a Christian book publisher we allow our authors to retain the copyrights over their work. So, when you’re looking for a Christian book publisher for your work, Publish America is the smart choice.

If you are interested in more information about our Christian book publishers service please see Book Publisher

http://www.publishamerica.com/christian-book-publishers/

Words fail me.

Makes PA's behaviour on the spiritual board even odder.

icerose

02-16-2006, 11:28 PM

I am ecstatic to announce, I am no longer a Publish America author.

Today, out of the blue, I got two release letters from Publish America. Both citing paragraph 24 (which is very true I lobbied against anyone buying my books horrible huh) and all my rights are returned to me without any forms or agreements to sign or anything.

The reason why this is so baffling to me is because they had declared they woudl keep my contract no matter what for the remainder of the agreement out of spite because I have been fighting to get my rights back for two years now.

Why the sudden change?

Believe me I am thrilled beyond words, I'm just a little confused. Both of my books have been removed from their site, ingrams has none in stock and they are listed as unavailable on all online vendors.

But really, go figure.

Sara Price

James D. Macdonald

02-16-2006, 11:50 PM

Why the sudden change?

Losing at arbitration to a couple of authors put the fear of the devil into them.

Tirjasdyn

02-17-2006, 12:05 AM

I'm sure some one has thought about this....

But why not take all this negative PA info, and send it to PA to be printed?

It's almost worth it...

LloydBrown

02-17-2006, 12:09 AM

I'm sure some one has thought about this....
But why not take all this negative PA info, and send it to PA to be printed?

I've thought about that. In fact--nevermind. They read this board.

AmandaPA

02-17-2006, 12:11 AM

Yes, Amanda. Your green light is on, down at the bottom, yes, right there. Tell us what other books you've written and where we can find them.
P.A. cheats everyone, me, you, grandma, Uncle Ned, and the like. It takes time to see their scam, if you don't know what you are looking for. You seem, and say you have experience, and therefore know that your books will not be stocked in bookstores. They will be available online with a million other titles. Anyone who buys it would have to be sent there by you.

If you want to sell your own books, which you've purchased from PA at a ridiculous price, then you've published with the right bunch.

One can never re-coup the cost of Promo, or purchases, so it's a mute point.

PA is the worst choice one can make for getting a book, in book form.

Edit for this: Many of us ARE from PA's clutches. We don't knock authors, we knock the company.

I will say it is easy to see that some are very, very, green.

Ken, what exactly do the comments I've put in bold mean? Green Light??
That couldn't possibly be a personal attack as in calling me a liar. I know it can't possibly be that because you don't attack authors printed by PA here.

For the information of anyone who cares, I have an appointment with my attorney where I plan to address the PA issue. Also I have some good news that proves there is hope after PA. I received answers to two query letters sent by my agent from a couple of publishes, one small press and one major publisher. They are interested in seeing my new manuscripts. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

James D. Macdonald

02-17-2006, 12:14 AM

That couldn't possibly be a personal attack as in calling me a liar. I know it can't possibly be that because you don't attack authors printed by PA here.

If you look down in the lower left-hand corner of the box to the left of each post (the box where you find the person's name and such), you can see a little dot. If it's green, that person is currently logged on. If it's grey, that person isn't logged in.

James D. Macdonald

02-17-2006, 12:16 AM

K I received answers to two query letters sent by my agent from a couple of publishes, one small press and one major publisher. They are interested in seeing my new manuscripts. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

That's excellent news, and of course there's life after PA. PA turns stepping stones into stumbling blocks, but they can't stop anyone who wants to be a published writer no matter how hard they try.

Tilly

02-17-2006, 12:22 AM

Icerose, that's wonderful news!:hooray:

xhouseboy

02-17-2006, 12:28 AM

Or maybe they're keeping the "Spiritual" board locked to Bible topics because they don't like being reminded they don't have any morals.

-Nick

Or in case someone bangs on too long about ethics and morals, and 17000 authors catch on all at the same time.

Originally posted by Lloyd Brown

In fact, you could work this to your advantage: if you claim that they make the majority of their income from sales to authors instead of sales to readers, then if they sue you, you could use their publicly-available information to prove your point [we've done that math here on AW].

Any UK authors who might have signed this gag-clause and then decide to break it, needn't worry too much. PA won't sue. If they did, legal aid is then avaliable for the defendant, one of the few instances where legal aid is granted in a civil case. It's a ploy I've seen advised on copyright cases. Big Corporation is in violation of certain copyright infringements, and knows it. Also knows wronged individual does not have funds available to raise a civil case, whereas they are rolling in the stuff. Wronged individual is accused of slandering Corporation at every opportunity, so invites Corporation to sue him/her if they do not like what is being said. Corporation constanly declines, knowing full well that to sue individual would mean a defence for individual financed by legal aid. This defence would be that Corporation was in violation of copyright. Hence it wasn't slander - it was the truth.

icerose

02-17-2006, 12:37 AM

That's excellent news, and of course there's life after PA. PA turns stepping stones into stumbling blocks, but they can't stop anyone who wants to be a published writer no matter how hard they try.

Thanks, yeah there is always life after. And that is so true about PA. Thankfully I am having a lot of positive response with my writing especially in the script field, so hopefully I'll get something really going on there. :D

And thanks Tilly, I hope we see several more cases like mine!

Sara

AmandaPA

02-17-2006, 12:42 AM

Yes, guys, I know what the little green light in the bottom corner means, but what did he mean when putting that comment with the rest that I had in bold. Also, I think I know when I'm online without being told. I know a thinly veiled insult when I receive one.

Sorry, that was off topic.

On topic is that my new my new book is priced right at $20.00 and I'm not a happy camper at all. Over priced books, no getting into bookstores, ridiculous contract and on top of all that, you get the priviledge of being treated like an idiot child if you dare to ask a legitimate question. I have to admit though, that I do feel like an idiot for signing with PA, but now I'm beginning to get PO.

NancyMehl

02-17-2006, 12:50 AM

For the information of anyone who cares, I have an appointment with my attorney where I plan to address the PA issue. Also I have some good news that proves there is hope after PA. I received answers to two query letters sent by my agent from a couple of publishes, one small press and one major publisher. They are interested in seeing my new manuscripts. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

I care, Amanda. My fingers are tightly crossed! Keep us updated.

Nancy

James D. Macdonald

02-17-2006, 12:51 AM

Over priced books, no getting into bookstores, ridiculous contract and on top of all that, you get the priviledge of being treated like an idiot child if you dare to ask a legitimate question.

This thread would be one post long if we could get everyone to understand that.

Christine N.

02-17-2006, 12:53 AM

Don't get mad, get even.

Tell everyone you know about PA and how they treated you and your book. Tell them how they've treated others.

Then go out and place a book with a real publisher. (I know you can do it, you did it before, obviously you have some talent)

BeeBomb

02-17-2006, 01:31 AM

AmandaPA

02-17-2006, 01:33 AM

Thank you Nancy. Even though I was politely asked to leave the board by private message, I will return here Friday and let you know what my attorney says.

Sassenach

02-17-2006, 02:00 AM

Thank you Nancy. Even though I was politely asked to leave the board by private message, I will return here Friday and let you know what my attorney says.

If someone sent you a PM you disagree with, forget about it. Who cares if they asked you to leave?

Christine N.

02-17-2006, 02:15 AM

Yeah, unless it was a mod who asked you to leave, they have no right to ask you. You hang around.

CaoPaux

02-17-2006, 02:18 AM

Thank you Nancy. Even though I was politely asked to leave the board by private message....Please forward it to Jenna to address.

SeanDSchaffer

02-17-2006, 02:23 AM

Snipped....

And Sean - why not start your rewrite now? It'll make you feel better, and by the time the book is yours again it'll be ready to do with what you want. There's no law that says you can't do it now, in the privacy of your own home. Or in a year from now.

You're right, Christine. I think I will make that my next project. Then, like you said, when my PA contract expires, I'll be able to do with it as I wish.

Good thinking. Thank you kindly for the suggestion.

Boy, it'll be nice to see my original book written as I intended it, and perhaps someday presented as I originally wanted it done. I believe I'm going to have a great rest-of-the-day today.

Cool!
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

Birol

02-17-2006, 02:29 AM

Please forward it to Jenna to address.

Jenna's a bit busy still, so please forward it to me, MacAllister, ChunkyC, and/or aka eraser. To the best of my knowledge, no mod sent this message.

Unless I have missed something, Amanda, you have been a civil and respectful poster. I know of no reason that you should not feel free to take off your coat and stay awhile.

SeanDSchaffer

02-17-2006, 02:30 AM

Snipped....

I'll have to look up my contract and give you the exact wording. I believe it's on the last or second-to-last page. The clause is virtually the same in the release agreement as it is in the contract.

I'll be back in a few minutes with the said information.
....Snipped.

Okay, I'm back with the information--a bit late, but I had some things come up today.

The paragraph in question is Paragraph 31 in my contract (yours might differ somewhat, Saundra; I'm not sure).

It reads:

31. A waiver of any breach of this agreement or of any of the terms or conditions by either party hereto, shall not be deemed a waiver of any repetition of such breach or in any way affect any other terms or conditions hereof; no waiver shall be valid or binding unless it shall be in writing, and signed by the parties.

NancyMehl

02-17-2006, 02:34 AM

Thank you Nancy. Even though I was politely asked to leave the board by private message, I will return here Friday and let you know what my attorney says.

Super.

And please don't leave.

Nancy

Gabriele

02-17-2006, 02:54 AM

AmandaPA, I really don't think Ken was insulting you. When something is GREEN, it means you haven't or anyone else has had the fortune to experience it beforehand.
It's one of my fondest sayings, "I am as green as a gourd in understanding a lot of things....expecially PA!"

Bee

See, that's the problem with colloquialisms. I didn't get the green reference either, and I thought Ken's post sounded a bit insulting. In Amanda's place, I'd have asked for an explanation as well.

CaoPaux

02-17-2006, 03:06 AM

Jenna's a bit busy still, so please forward it to me, MacAllister, ChunkyC, and/or aka eraser. Heh, I'd forgotten Jenna was off doing other things. Like I should be. Rather than rooting around Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:PublishAmerica

akaa1a

02-17-2006, 04:11 AM

I'm sure some one has thought about this....

But why not take all this negative PA info, and send it to PA to be printed?

It's almost worth it...

He, he , he...maybe someone already has!
You know what they say...
Consequences aren't about the suggestion of what might happen...but the certainty that something will.

Anyone care to join me in playing Needle in a Haystack?

Maddog

02-17-2006, 04:47 AM

Sounds fun!

JimmyD1318

02-17-2006, 04:51 AM

Amada...please stay awhile. It looks like you have alot to share with everyone. And as a beginner...you could also teach alot to some of us. Hope you do decide to stay.

Does anyone know if any new legal action has been brought to PA? And I wonder what it would take to shut them down or at least be honest with what they provide to writers. Which is next to nothing. :e2thud:

xhouseboy

02-17-2006, 05:21 AM

Thank you Nancy. Even though I was politely asked to leave the board by private message, I will return here Friday and let you know what my attorney says.

...those having escaped bondage were welcomed into the ranks of citizens. When this policy of inclusiveness changed, the consequences led directly to the fall of the Republic. A Republic ruled by elected executives whose power was checked by a constitution so well crafted that it inspired the founding fathers of the United States of America.....

Birol

02-17-2006, 06:11 AM

Denizens of NEPAT, the individual who PM'd Amanda came forward on their own and provided me copies of the PM's sent. After reviewing them, it appears to me that the PM was misinterpreted. Amanda was not asked to leave by any member of this community. I have also sent her a PM letting her know that she is welcome to remain.

Unless something else is brought to my attention, I think this matter is closed.

That is all. Carry on.

PVish

02-17-2006, 07:10 AM

From the PAMB, some authors are trying to figure out how books are priced. Pricing is a trade secret? The price isn't the author's business?

I agree with ** I think it depends on the number of pages in the book as to what the price is.

I am sure there may be other factors as well, but one thing PA will not tell us how they figure the price. The reason for that is because it is NONE of our business. We might think it is but it is not.

I would be a terrible mistakes on PA's part to disclose that information to anyone. People tend to tell what they know sometimes with out think.

For instance let's say that an author is looking for another publisher to publish his 3rd book. He is quoted a price by a publisher then responds, well...I have two books in print with PublishAmerica and here is how they figured the price of my first two books why is your different? They have given away trade secrets. Besides that, if we knew what the actualy cost were then the author would start complaining that PA should give us all a better discount on our books. No one would be pleased.
So it is in the best interest of PA not to disclose that information.

It's no secret—PA charges as much as they think your friends and relatives are willing to pay.

James D. Macdonald

02-17-2006, 07:37 AM

They have given away trade secrets. Besides that, if we knew what the actualy cost were then the author would start complaining that PA should give us all a better discount on our books.

Lighting Source prints its rate card. It's 0.13 cents per page, plus $.90 for the cover.

It's easy enough to figure out PA's prices. I've done it, and corrrectly predicted their prices in advance (the 200 authors book, among others) just from knowing the page length. It's a straight-line graph.

Generally speaking, PA's prices are five dollars higher than those of other publishers printing similar length books using identical technology.

You can, honest to goodness, figure all this out for yourself. Take your favorite spreadsheet program. Go over to Amazon, and search for all the PA books published this month. They have the page count and the prices listed right there. Graph length against price. This is easy.

PA should give lots better discounts on their books. Real publisher that do real promotions and spend a heck of a lot more on art, design, and editing, give better discounts and charge less per copy.

But selling books to random readers isn't their business plan. Selling books to their authors is their business plan.

James D. Macdonald

02-17-2006, 07:45 AM

He is quoted a price by a publisher then responds, well...I have two books in print with PublishAmerica and here is how they figured the price of my first two books why is your different?

I needed to comment on this bit separately.

When I'm talking to publishers, and they quote me a price, the price they're quoting is the advance they're going to pay me. And you'd better believe that even when I was starting out those advances weren't just one dollar. (My very first novel the advance was $2,000.)

I don't care what they charge for the book, because they're going to have to price it competitively in order to recoup that advance.

But let's say you took your manuscript to a printshop for your next book ... and the printer gave you a price, and you said to him, "PublishAmerica charged $19.95 a copy for my last book. Why are you only charging $3.50?"

The printer would look at you and say, "They charged what?!"

ResearchGuy

02-17-2006, 08:25 AM

...they're going to have to price it competitively in order to recoup that advance....
Not to mention making a habit of publishing books that lots of people will want to buy.

--Ken

Canada James

02-17-2006, 09:04 AM

Aconite

02-17-2006, 04:15 PM

Does anyone know if any new legal action has been brought to PA? New since when? In the last couple of months, PA has lost two arbitration decisions; the amounts of the monetary settlements to the authors are undisclosed, but word is they were substantial (in the multi-thousands).

A. J. Luxton

02-17-2006, 04:18 PM

Tell me if I'm wrong, but didn't the "Hershey's Kiss" author get told about her copyright problem *right* after someone mentioned it here?

I'm also wondering what people like Icerose (congratulations, Icerose! Enjoy your freedom!) said here directly before getting their contracts suddenly revoked.

Seems like they have a full-time employee just to follow these threads at AW.

Hello there, full-time employee! Don't you wish you had a better job? I've heard some fisheries in Alaska are hiring . . . yes, high lethality, but anything's gotta be better than the looks on your boss's face when you tell him about what's been said this week . . .

He probably empties the coffeepot on your head a lot.

(Hi there all, by the by. I'm not really anyone you know; I got here and assorted other places from browsing the SFWA site, where I read about Atlanta Nights, proceeded to find and read much of AN, almost snarfed coffee into my keyboard, and determined that the anti-scam patrol is like those mean snarky internet sites but uses its powers for good. And I'm all about using our powers for good. Just let me know if I can do anything specific to help.)

Aconite

02-17-2006, 04:24 PM

I'm also wondering what people like Icerose (congratulations, Icerose! Enjoy your freedom!) said here directly before getting their contracts suddenly revoked.
I suspect that has a lot to do with PA's realization that they stand to lose a lot of money in arbitration if authors take that route.

Ladies and gentlemen, thank Phil Dolan for breaking that trail.

James D. Macdonald

02-17-2006, 04:43 PM

Personal for White Raven:

Is Shelagh claiming that she's PA's best debater? If that's the best you can do, sure. Being banned here (which had nothing to do with her "defense" of PA, BTW) shouldn't stop her. There's lots of boards. There's lots of chat venues. SFF Net, for example, which I run:

http://irc.sff.net/

Or there's this place:

http://www.freewebs.com/truthaboutpa/thepledge.htm

How about it, guy? You might find it instructive.

endless rewrite

02-17-2006, 05:43 PM

I am now about to post some 'positive' news from today's PAMB. This guy is my absolute fave, he's the one with all the book signing advice, you know, playing his own recorded tape, softly, costumes and special pens etc. I am strangely fascinated watching his wild enthusiasm and plans spiral off the map, day by day. I cannot believe he is real. If he is, I want some of his meds.

I'm in the midst of an absolute love affair witrh PA and i'm proud to say my book retails for $29.95. sounds outrageous for a paperback doesn't it? But you know what? As hard as I've worked on this thing and as proud of it as I am(my cover is indescribably beautiful) it's worth every dime of the purchase price.
Yes it does and is outrageous, how hard you worked on it will not matter a frog's fart to anyone thinking of buying it.

some of you may have read some of my other posts where I've discussed pricing concerns and marketing ideas for discounts and such but after seeing my cover for the first time and the response I've already had, my book's a bargain at twice the price.

stabs eyes with pencil.

[QUOTE]
I'm so giddy I can barely key in these words....snip...I opened the first one and it was from this goddess, Jennifer, at Pa i....snip...Sure enough it was my cover! The cover is beyond my wildest dreams. It's beyond perfection!
....Somehow those geniuses at PA captured the very essence of my boy apparently from the decriptions I've given in the book....Chills of pure exhilaration still have me trembling.

Has he just had sex or looked at his book cover or - shudders - both? (imagines the 'goddess' Jennifer involved in some sort of bookmark/signing fantasy - 'Give me some more of that tone, baby!'

Every minute detail of my cover is spectacular! The letter styling, the colors, the proportions of the picture and title; it's all just fantastic.....I almost feel guilty because anyone who has seen many of PA's covers knows PA does the most amazing job, but mine is by far the most exceptional cover they have ever done and the likelyhood that they will ever excell above this standard is utterly impossible. I have exhausted all the superlatives in expressing my gratitude to PA and, quite frankly, I feel sorry for anyone who must come after me because they have must have used every ounce of their creative genius on the cover for Caleb's Branch. I may very well never be able to wipe this silly grin off my face.

There's more, so much more but you get the picture. At first I found this amusing and then quite depressing. When I see all the hard work people here do, clearly, calmly stating the facts about PA I think how can anyone not see it for what it is. Then I read this and see that some people are beyond any reason or help and these are the people who are always the loudest cheerleaders for PA, encouraging others to believe the ******** and chiding those that dare to question. Then I got to thinking that perhaps PA is really a government sponsored programme - a type of care in the community option. Think about it, you know it makes sense...something has to.

Can you imagine what pitch his excitement will reach when his book arrives? I suggest iron underpants and a box of 3 ply tissues to hand.

James D. Macdonald

02-17-2006, 05:54 PM

I'm off to Boskone. Be good, everyone.

On that author's reaction to his/her book: yes. Authors love their books. It's a natural reaction.

What should be surprising is the number of PA authors who have come to hate their books. That takes real work on PA's part to accomplish.

I hope this author still feels the same way a year from now. But you know what? I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him or her right here, posting away with the rest of the "bashers," in six months.

Tilly

02-17-2006, 06:01 PM

We do state over and over again the problems with PA. But in the honeymoon period, before people have encountered some problems themselves, the rush of excitement and enthusiasm can block out what we're saying. They don't know who to believe. For some people it takes time to realise what they thought, and hoped, were false rumours are true.

For a while some authors rationalise away the problems they encounter. I think that's because it's just too painful.

endless rewrite

02-17-2006, 06:03 PM

I hope you are right and that all come out of the darkness into the light.

What I find most odd about him is that he seems to be more in love with PA than his book. His posts about PA make White Raven look like a surly teenage brat in comparison. He just wants to hug and kiss them and lavish them with luurve.

I cannot wait for his website. I'm a trembling with anticipation!

Gravity

02-17-2006, 06:10 PM

I cannot wait for his website. I'm a trembling with anticipation!

Talk about your purple prose, that PA-groupie has it in spades. I'm getting a bit moist myself in anticipation of seeing his site. And for a manly man like me that takes some doing.

John (even now towling himself off)

Bonnie Gibson

02-17-2006, 07:10 PM

Please don't leave. Stick around. You'll find people here really do care about PA authors and are trying to help them and stop others from signing with PA.

That's the reason for the thread. Nothing more.

Good luck with your endeavors.

I also am speaking with a lawyer. I am going to get my contract back. My lawyer say's "No problem." And maybe a little more than my contract back. (IF you know what I mean.);)

We care about you! :Hug2:

Bonnie

Aconite

02-17-2006, 07:14 PM

I also am speaking with a lawyer. I am going to get my contract back. My lawyer say's "No problem." And maybe a little more than my contract back. (IF you know what I mean.);)Arbitration seems to be both effective and profitable. Best of luck, Bonnie.

Tilly

02-17-2006, 07:19 PM

My lawyer say's "No problem." And maybe a little more than my contract back. (IF you know what I mean.);)

:snoopy: Good luck, I hope it goes very well.:hooray:

Memphis Ed

02-17-2006, 07:19 PM

I'm in the midst of an absolute love affair witrh PA and i'm proud to say my book retails for $29.9

Yipes!

A. J. Luxton

02-17-2006, 07:25 PM

I take it they're running out of real, live enthusiastic authors as the news spreads, and having to invent some of their own . . .

Dhewco

02-17-2006, 07:30 PM

Hi, I have to say this thread is addictive. I felt an urge to mention that. I don't have a dog in this hunt, no book by PA or anything, but I check this thread at least twice a week.

I live in a small enough area that even the 'press releases' of PA are given a real billing. That is, the paper quotes it pretty much word for word and treats PA as it would any publisher (I can remember two different PA publishers and one mid-rank publisher that local authors have used and been reviewed in the local Times). I think that's sad.

David

Nexusman

02-17-2006, 07:30 PM

PAMB via MemphisEd:
I'm in the midst of an absolute love affair witrh PA and i'm proud to say my book retails for $29.9

Absolute love affair? More like he's getting screwed.

-Nick

Birol

02-17-2006, 07:40 PM

Easy there, Nexusman.

Sparhawk

02-17-2006, 07:42 PM

PAMB via MemphisEd:

Absolute love affair? More like he's getting screwed.

-Nick

Man this poor soul is going to come down to Earth hard. I say that with no glee or malice, just a sad observation. To actually beleive that the cover artist (clip art technician) read your book to designed it just for you.... <<SIGH>>

It is truly ponderous.

-Sparhawk

DaveKuzminski

02-17-2006, 07:43 PM

Arbitration seems to be both effective and profitable. Best of luck, Bonnie.

Keep in mind that you might have the right to subpoena PA employees who worked on your book at PA to testify at arbitration. If so, mentioning that to PA might be useful in convincing PA to relinquish the rights sooner. In fact, if PA suspects that employee might tell the truth, you could be doing that PA employee a big favor even though it might not seem that way should PA terminate their employment.

And before anyone jumps up to scream that it might be the only way they can support themselves, do you really want anyone to support themselves by working for any business that regularly steals? Do you want to see anyone work long enough at PA to figure out how to start their own PA clone? Do you really want PA to have enough employees to victimize thousands of writers each year instead of what we might reduce it to by depriving PA of as many employees as possible?

You may now scream at me if you want. I've stated my view and why. Just remember that Willem stated they encountered unexpected success in publishing and then expanded by hiring employees. That is one of their weaknesses, other than arbitration. They can't publish enough books to make the profits add up into the millions without enough employees to handle the number of victims necessary to reach that amount. Deprive PA of its employees and it shrivels up to the size of American Book Publishing Group with only a few dozen victims. Then arbitration becomes a serious weapon toward shutting them down perrmanently.

Lady of Prose

02-17-2006, 09:51 PM

I'm off to Boskone. Be good, everyone.

Have fun at the convention, Jim.

Re: PA's book covers. Every once in awhile they hire a new graphic artist that does quality professional work. (May be the case regarding the happy author) In such a case, you may see better than usual book covers. Yet, those artist do not stay long. Humm....wonder why that is? Some of the better covers from PA were done by the authors themselves or hired done by the authors. So, spins the PA wheel.

Gabriele

02-17-2006, 09:52 PM

Every minute detail of my cover is spectacular! The letter styling, the colors, the proportions of the picture and title; it's all just fantastic.....I almost feel guilty because anyone who has seen many of PA's covers knows PA does the most amazing job, but mine is by far the most exceptional cover they have ever done and the likelyhood that they will ever excell above this standard is utterly impossible. I have exhausted all the superlatives in expressing my gratitude to PA and, quite frankly, I feel sorry for anyone who must come after me because they have must have used every ounce of their creative genius on the cover for Caleb's Branch. I may very well never be able to wipe this silly grin off my face.

Ohhh, I want to see that cover. I'm feeling a bit depressed, I need good laugh. :D

PVish

02-17-2006, 09:57 PM

I'm not sure the problem is what medication he's on - but what medication he forgot to take!

This guy is so over the top that I'm starting to wonder if he's for real or if he's doing this deliberately--maybe he's jerking PA around. He thinks price isn't an issue?

The art work on my cover is worth thirty bucks!Seriously, I am convinced price will not be an issue. Think of it this way,Our books are not going to be competeing for attention because of price. That's for used cars and ground chuck at the grocery store.
Price is for anything that's for sale. If it costs too much, folks ain't gonna buy.

Secondly, with a higher price our savings from discounts are larger so we have a bigger margin to set some prices and still have room for a profit. Not that we need to always sell at a discount! Special events should easily demand full retail, and if someone buys more than one volume, which amazingly many people do, even a 25% or 30% discount relates into a big savings for the buyer and yet a darn good profit for you if you're selling from your own stock. At $29.95 my actual retail. Let's say 30 bucks. I buy in volume at at say 40% discount. I pay $17.95 I can sell that book at a discount of 15% or $4.50 ( a nice savings) at 25.95 or make it even better at $24.95 This keeps it under $25.oo bucks and now we're in the ball park! I still make $7.00!

Shipping. You forgot shipping. And the gas to haul your books around. And the price of goodies for the signings that you arrange. And the cost of your bookmarks, brochures, etc.

The customer get's a "great deal" I make money. What's not to love? As unkown writer's, we have to get into the book promotions business if making money is our goal. If just being published is what we're after than price doesn't make any difference anyway. I am in this as a business. So I'm going to find out as much as I can and figure out ways to make this work. PA gave me an incredible prop to put in people's hands but it's me and my story that I'm selling and I'm worth more than $9.95. And when you look yourself in the mirror, you know, so are you!

Uh, somebody else tell him what's not to love. PA doesn't give "incredible props." Somebody pays.

MacAllister

02-17-2006, 09:58 PM

You know what? The guy loves his book. Go figure.

You guys don't remember that feeling?

Let's ease up on him, people, okay?

Aconite

02-17-2006, 10:03 PM

General Joy

02-17-2006, 10:13 PM

I know what you're saying, MacAllister, but the guy is starting to make me gag, by calling the PA staff "angels" who descended from Heaven. Ugh. I remember the feeling of loving my book, though, because I still have it! I love my book, but it's MY accomplishment. PA had nothing to do with it really--they have no idea what it's even about. :rolleyes:

MacAllister

02-17-2006, 10:20 PM

Then don't go read it. Work on your manuscript. We've got a longstanding policy about not attacking authors.

I think it may be time to get more serious about that.

ETA: I didn't mean for this to sound as snarky as it came out--"Go work on your book" is a common refrain among many of us, and I didn't mean it sarcastically. I'm sorry, General Joy--I should have exercised more control over my language.

Liam Jackson

02-17-2006, 10:37 PM

Well said, Aconite. Period.

mdin

02-17-2006, 11:06 PM

Tell me if I'm wrong, but didn't the "Hershey's Kiss" author get told about her copyright problem *right* after someone mentioned it here?

We see this happen time and time again. I can think of several examples.

Atlanta Nights was mentioned on this board, and they got their contract retraction hours later.

We talked about cancer boy's book on overflow, and PA removed it from circulation that same day, even though it had been out for a couple months.

I posted a link to Willem's helicopter business, and the link which had been up for years went away in hours.

Countless threads have been deleted and users banned only moments after appearing here. All of this is documented in Nepat.

Ken Schneider

02-17-2006, 11:23 PM

DaveKuzminski

02-17-2006, 11:26 PM

PA might be learning what it takes and what has to be done to be a real publisher, but they're not there yet. They're a long ways from it.

NicoleJLeBoeuf

02-17-2006, 11:27 PM

Thank you, Mac and Aconite. We do ourselves no good by eroding our own moral high ground. The comments about "off his meds" were making me very uncomfortable in light of claims made that Attacking PA Authors Will Not Be Tolerated.

I'd like to also suggest...

...that making fun of people's stated feelings is similarly unproductive. If the man says he's having a love affair with P.A., OK, fine. Taking issue with that statement serves no useful purpose--it neither breaks the legs PA stands on nor picks its pocket of ready victims. Making fun of the guy will only serve to prove PA right in the eyes of its authors: "See how mean those people are? Stay with us. We love you. We're your family." We do not want to push people into the arms of the scammer this way.

I don't care how much any of y'all might think "But this guy deserves making fun of! I mean, really!" You want the moral high ground? You earn it by not stooping to this kind of sh1t. You start with this premise: No author deserves our ridicule. The moment you give up that premise, you lose the right to call yourself any sort of author advocate.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

So. PA author says how much he loves PA and will send them valentines? Lay off and let him say it. Big deal.

PA author says he loves PA because they've given him the chance he deserves? OK, there we have something to take issue with. It's a great jumping off point for the standard lecture "Why PA Are Lying When They Claim To Take A Chance On You." Factually untrue statements demand rebuttal.

But emotional statements? There's nothing factual there to rebut. There's only one person's feelings and another person making fun of them, and that's a quagmire we all need to stay out of no matter how unjustified we might think the stated feelings are.

Diane

02-17-2006, 11:31 PM

He thinks price isn't an issue?

Price is for anything that's for sale. If it costs too much, folks ain't gonna buy.

I know that the whole "price isn't an issue" thing is a big part of PA's come-on to authors -- "Your book is worth more so people will pay more," etc.

I have a serious question, which is: do many of these people not go to bookstores? Or buy books on a regular basis?

My experience is probably different than a lot of people's -- I live in a metropolitan area and can visit several bookstores within 10 miles of my house. (All big chains, ala B&N and Borders, alas.) I hit bookstores at least once a week; I visit Amazon easily once a day. I don't always buy books, but I'm always checking them out. And I'm lucky in another respect: I have a fairly large book budget (probably because I don't buy clothes very often, but that's another story). If I really want a book, I'll get it.

Even so... I'd notice if one was vastly more expensive than others. A book that cost five or so more dollars than its fellows would make me stop and go, Wha'?

When PA's authors hear the "price doesn't matter" line, I'm surprised more of them don't say, "Wait a second, it does for everything else in my life."

Scribhneoir

02-17-2006, 11:43 PM

I'd like to also suggest...

[soapbox]

...that making fun of people's stated feelings is similarly unproductive. If the man says he's having a love affair with P.A., OK, fine.

Well said, Nicole.:Clap: Most PAers get slapped in the face with reality; this guy's gonna get socked in the jaw. That will be painful enough. He doesn't deserve to be ridiculed just because he's excited about his book and its cover.

Sparhawk

02-17-2006, 11:43 PM

<<XXXXXX, Please let me try to offer a little consolation here. My book is 463 pages and like you I sweated bullets over the concern that it would be too pricey to be competative. I just found out it will be priced at PA for $29.95 which ,no argument is at the top od the spectrum. But and this is a great big but, I've had a total epiphany when it comes to this whole pricing issue. We don't have to compete with the mass market sellers nor do we compete for the bargain basement shopper. People buy a PA book because they buying a PA author. Oye buyer is a more sophisticated reader. He or she is looking for new author,s they're metting us at book signings and at our local libraries. There neighbor works with us and is recommending our book personally. It's a special gift because it's signed and the purchaser can say I actually got to met to the author and he or she is a wonderful person. you see it's not at all about the price. Once you've sold a few thousand copies and it goes into traditional print the price will drop right in line with the big boys but unfortunately the special glow drops down too.
If you read around in these forums you will see several of my posts expressing the very concerns you have. I was so obssessed with price. Then i started thinking of ways to purchase larger quanities to offer better discounts through my website and how to promote my book and not it's price and I just couldn't care less now. Well, you know what? I'm actually proud that PA thinks my book is worth $29.95. Afterall they don't make money unless it sells so they want it to do as well as it can. The on-line book sources, as well as, the large chains all sell at a discount so that's going to factor in and remember how hard you've worked on this. Don't sell yourself short. Hey Babe, You're woth it!>>

I'm sorry, I just couldn't help but post this from teh PAMB! This really frightens me!! How much misinformation and denial must these people be in to really beleive that somebody will buy a PA book for thirty bucks !!! This is so sad becasue thero book will never sell with the exception of friends and family who'll drop thirty Washington's on an unknown author. An autographed PA book means nothing to the mainstream buyer. These are the peole that keep Publish America in business.

AnneMarble

02-17-2006, 11:47 PM

I know what you're saying, MacAllister, but the guy is starting to make me gag, by calling the PA staff "angels" who descended from Heaven. Ugh.
Hmm... Technically, wasn't Lucifer an angel who descended from Heaven? He just wasn't allowed back. :D

That may be a fitting analogy for the owners of PA, at the very least. Too bad we can't just do an exorcism. But it might explain why vanity publishers are legion!

Tilly

02-17-2006, 11:54 PM

When PA's authors hear the "price doesn't matter" line, I'm surprised more of them don't say, "Wait a second, it does for everything else in my life."

I think they would, if they were thinking as a buyer, and about how they buy books.
And some do realise it will discourage sales:

I'm trying to find out if my book is going to be price-friendly enough to make sales. It is a full length novel, 400+ pages, and from what I've heard, the price will be too much for sales.

Do you know how they are priced?

I'm running into the same problem with my new book, being over priced for it being 190 page paper back. I think it would sale better if it was smaller, which would make it thicker and the price was droped down $12. Glenda

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=11244

Those who are aware that it's a problem often don't seem to know yet about the other obstacles PA has put in their way. So, if they can overcome this one problem, it will be okay.
But it won't be okay.

Sassenach

02-17-2006, 11:54 PM

The customer get's a "great deal" I make money. What's not to love? As unkown writer's,

Once you get known, you can drop the apostrophes.

PVish

02-17-2006, 11:59 PM

In light of a recent PublishAmerica title which plagiarized Cancer information, at times word for word, It seems has forced PA to make a policy change.
http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=11248

Remember, a lot of PA books are written by folks who overcame adversity and abuse. (Stumbling blocks into stepping stones, remember?) Probably many named names of their abusers. Not long ago a young man had a book come out in which he said on the PAMB he wanted to expose his step-father. Haven't seen him posting for awhile, but I think he was one who wised up and got banned.

Odds are good some people who were libeled in some of these cathartic PA books heard about it and raised a stink. Naturally PA would want to keep this quiet. Probably getting permissions never occured to PA until recently.

DeePower

02-18-2006, 12:00 AM

Maybe they did, maybe they didn't.

Go to
http://www.publishedauthors.net/cgi-bin/fmmguestbook.pl?user=jerryminchew&group=firstgroup&action=viewg

And scroll down.

It seems kind of odd to me.

The PA author says that he posted a review on one of Clive Cussler's books on amazon and that's how Clive found him.

Dee

AnneMarble

02-18-2006, 12:11 AM

Remember, a lot of PA books are written by folks who overcame adversity and abuse. (Stumbling blocks into stepping stones, remember?)
While this doesn't have anything to do with your post :), I wonder if this is another reason so many PA authors are willing to put up with so much. (Besides not understanding how publishing works.) If you've had to endure horrid abuse and neglect throughout your life, then trying to sell your book to booksellers or at craft markets can't seem so bad. And when PA turns abusive, well, maybe some people just expect that from everyone because that's what they've always known. :(

Odds are good some people who were libeled in some of these cathartic PA books heard about it and raised a stink. Naturally PA would want to keep this quiet. Probably getting permissions never occured to PA until recently.
Ooh, good point.

PVish

02-18-2006, 12:12 AM

(Our) buyer is a more sophisticated reader.

The PA buyer is a friend or relative of the author. Sophisticated readers actually read reviews in major papers and make choices among many possible good books. Odds are good, sophisticated readers probably frequently visit bookstores and browse among the many choices. Odds are good, they're well-educated and know what constitutes good literature.

Sophisticated readers are not swayed by brochures, bookmarks, door-hangers, pamphlets left under windshields, paid Internet radio interviews, home-made cookies, special pens, PRweb press releases, etc.

Interesting that few PA authors seem to buy each other's books, isn't it? A lot of promotion goes on over at the PAMB, but books sales are, uh, unspectacular. Many appear to trade a pdf copy with each other for reviews rather than sending out the book. I wonder how many books the average PA author buys a year—and how many are PA books? (Hey, lurkers: post this question on the PAMB. Thanks!)

icerose

02-18-2006, 12:32 AM

I'm also wondering what people like Icerose (congratulations, Icerose! Enjoy your freedom!) said here directly before getting their contracts suddenly revoked.

Hi A.J.,
Thanks for the congratulations. I have been greatly enjoying my freedom from their stream of abuse.

I had only posted here like once or twice before and it was a long time ago. I had given up fighting them right after proofs to my second book came. They were horrible.

The cover was worse. It didn't have anything remotely to do with the actual book. They snubbed me (big surprise....not!) and recited that according to my contract they had the final say.

Before that I had offered proof after proof of their breaches of my contract, they threatened me, they tried to make me think I was crazy, they treated me like I was "Sick and confused" (actual quote).

They delivered my royalties late (mailed on sept 2nd)

And so on and so forth, I can't even list all the things they did to me.

So after all this I had given up. I was just going to walk away and ignore them, and before the second book was released, after my author copies came (I wanted to rip them to pieces...sad huh) here came two letters.

I don't think I will ever figure out why they did it, out of the blue, perhaps they saw me as a future arbitration threat, I don't know. (Had I ever gotten the money to file I would have been.)

I hope there are many more letters like mine going out to the unhappy PA authors.

TO ALL AUTHORS WHO LOVE PA...I hope it lasts for you because believe me, when the curtains fall and you see what PA really is, you're going to feel a lot of things. Anger, shame, betrayal, guilt, depression, and many more things. You will want to throw your "beloved" books out the window, shred them, hide them, and forget it ever happened. The stream of abuse that comes from author "support" will not end once you start asking questions.

My honeymoon period with PA lasted just long enough for me to tie up two books, less than 3 months. I have been fighting against them ever since. It is a horrible experience.

Another thing I have learned along the way...If someone is shouting that they aren't something (such as a vanity or POD) then that means enough people are saying they are, and for good reason. If someone is calling themselves the best thing that ever came along or that they are revolutionalizing the industry, all that means is they are pompous, and hateful, and the only thing they are revolutionalizing are old scams.

Good luck everyone!

Sara

Maddog

02-18-2006, 12:53 AM

Then I relized that the same was true about books. Good books are not cheap and cheap books are not good. Compare the cover of your book to other books of the same genre and you will discover that PA book covers are the BEST in the industry bar none.

The books are printed on quatily paper and the binding of the books is the best that I have seen. Besides that some of the best authors are with PublishAmerica. They are proud of our work and we should be too. After all, dont you think you are worth the money and that you writing is worth the price they are asking? If not, then why did you seek to have your book published?

If you wanted cheap, then use a vainity press and see how cheap looking it can be.

More on PA's pricing.

icerose

02-18-2006, 12:58 AM

Where do they come up with this pricing issue? Go to walmart and find bestsellers. They are often the cheapest ones! Why? Because they have sold so much.

NancyMehl

02-18-2006, 12:59 AM

Ladies and gentlemen, comments about the man's mental health are out of line as well as off-topic. Respect your fellow writer. Talk about his work, talk about his assumptions, talk about his actions (in Overflow, if it's not directly related to PA), but lay off the man himself.

Sorry. My comment was meant to be lighthearted and was not purposely directed at the author. However, in retrospect, it could certainly be taken that way.

I apologize.

Nancy

LaViers

02-18-2006, 01:10 AM

I just got my author copies... I'm so excited... oops, wrong forum. :D

I had hoped to stay up to date with the new forum, a week went by and now it's up to twenty something pages. I am one of the PA lurkers I guess, although I have posted a few times in the past as the mood strikes.

Here's my story, I found out while I was going through WOC training in Rucker that a publisher had decided to pick up my story. I was elated; I had even forgotten that I had submitted to PA. At the time I had no idea of who they were, only their method of submitting was the least stringent. I only had a few days before I shipped off to school so I went ahead and submitted to them thinking, "What the heck?"

I had no experience with the refusals, or rejections, as I really never thought I would be able to publish. Who was I anyway? So when my first attempt landed me a wonderful deal with a "traditional publisher" I thought I had real talent.

Then I started digging, after I returned from school, after I signed my contract, before I received the advance on the book itself. Most of my information came from this site, there are others, yet this one seemed to be full of folks who spoke coherently about their problems with PA. There are other sites that are just difficult to read.

At any rate, I found out that I am not a talented author, just a person with an imagination that led him to believe that he may have some talent. I don't really have anything against PA, not yet. They haven't been rude. I haven't asked any questions. I am currently one dollar ahead of the game; if I discount the opportunity cost of the hours spent working on my book. I haven't bought any kind of the marketing material. I did create a website... call it my little tax shelter. I did buy one copy of my book, to see how long it would take to get in... I received it before my author copies. You can see a copy of the book cover on my web site at www.elixir-of-power.com (http://www.elixir-of-power.com/) ... seems like a nice cover, not what I asked for, but not too bad. Supposed to be a dragon flying towards you, blowing fire... the background looks strangely like Alaska...

I am working on the second book, working diligently; I want to be picked up by a real publisher this time around.

See, PA did do something for me that was positive. Perhaps not readily seen on the surface, but it's there. They gave me the desire that I simply didn't have before... I DO want to be published. I WILL make it happen. And I will most likely choose to frame each of my rejection letters on my wall, until I get that one letter that answers my dream.

I still have the letter that PA sent with the crisp brand new dollar bill affixed to it... I don't know what I want to do with it...

Coffee anyone???

allan

AnneMarble

02-18-2006, 02:14 AM

I just got my author copies... I'm so excited... oops, wrong forum. :D
I think you'll fit in well here. :D

At any rate, I found out that I am not a talented author, just a person with an imagination that led him to believe that he may have some talent.
Don't let your experience PA let you think you don't have talent. If you got this far, you may dang well have it. In fact, you probably do. (Writing a book isn't easy, and of course, just because PA published it, that doesn't make it bad.) As important as talent is, the hard part is acquiring the skill to use it. Oh, and the !@#$ perserverance. (In fact, I'm thinking of ordering some perserverance from eBay. If they don't have that, maybe some chair-to-butt glue.)

Or as some others might phrase this... Don't let those PissAnts get you down.
:banana:

xhouseboy

02-18-2006, 02:22 AM

I just got my author copies... I'm so excited... oops, wrong forum. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

allan

I admire and respect your humour and your style.

AmandaPA

02-18-2006, 02:32 AM

I assure you Amanda, if in fact I address you, your name will be in my post and clearly understandable, and there would be no question

"Yes, Amanda. Your green light is on, down at the bottom, yes, right" there. Tell us what other books you've written and where we can find them.

Hum, sorry, that looks like my name up there. I guess I need my glasses changed.

Nancy, just popped in to let you know what my attorney said. First the contract. He said it was an author unfriendly contract, but was legal and binding on both parties. He also said that the arbitration clause would probably kill any change of getting them in a court room until I'd tried arbitration first. When I told him all I wanted were the rights to my work back, he said to send a registered letter, no emails, requesting the return of all rights and why. If the letter is returned, I'm to send another, up to three. Any emails I receive/received from them are to be copied and given to him. Also all proof of any expenses incurred while trying to promote, including the buying of any books. And any proof I have that all books sold were by my efforts and not theirs. He also wants me to get proof that I can't get my books into any bookstores except by extraordinary means. He's going to check out their website too in an effort to prove that I was intentionally misled. He was very interested in the fact that the discount from Ingrams was lowered to 5%, Well, it's a start. We'll see what happens.

I will continue to read this board, including this thread. There is a lot of helpful information here and I thank you all for the help you are offering to writers on some of the other threads to help us improve our work. Best wishes to all of you.

NancyMehl

02-18-2006, 02:45 AM

Nancy, just popped in to let you know what my attorney said.

Thanks, Amanda. Keep us updated. We're all cheering you on. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/e2cheer.gif

Nancy

DeePower

02-18-2006, 02:55 AM

You can write to Barnes and Noble and probably get a letter back that PA books are not stocked and that yours specifically will not be stocked. Other authors have.

Marcella A Smith
Director Small Press & Vendor Relations
Barnes & Noble, Inc
122 Fifth Avenue
New York, NY 10011

You can find out if any books are being stocked by which distributor by putting in your ISBN number at this website.

http://www.bookmanager.com/tbm/?

You can call Ingram 615-213-6808 and get their automated inventory system. Punch in your isbn and you can find out how many books have sold through Ingram in 2005 and so far in 2006. You can also find out if your book is stocked physically by Ingram.

You can find out what the PA website said in previous years by going to
http://www.archive.org/web/web.php
and entering www.publishamerica.com (http://www.publishamerica.com) unfortunately PA started blocking and the archives only go to March 0f 2005 and not every page is archived. At least you can see what the site said when you signed the contract.

It seems that some PA books may not be able to be ordered through a Borders store.

Hope this helps.

Dee

DeePower

02-18-2006, 02:58 AM

At this point in her conflict with PA, if I were her, I wouldn't identify myself or my books, on this forum either.

Dee

Berry

02-18-2006, 03:23 AM

In fact, if PA suspects that employee might tell the truth, you could be doing that PA employee a big favor even though it might not seem that way should PA terminate their employment.

I'd like to point out that even if PA does terminate the employees, one could still subpoena them. Just because they no longer work at PA doesn't mean they can't testify about what happened when they did work there.

Gabriele

02-18-2006, 03:50 AM

Oh brother, Boo Hoo!

You thought that that statement above was cutting, and hurt your feelings?

And, since you haven't answered the question, what other books have you written, and where can we find them?

I think that you are the one looking for a fight.

PA is still the worst choice for book printing.

Come over to the "Take it Outside", board. I'll pull the NETPAT-O-F up and we can talk.

I think after Amanda just posted that she has talked to a lawyer about how to get her book back from PA, this is a very unkind statement to make.

Medievalist

02-18-2006, 04:04 AM

Ken

You need to step back, and cool off. First, Amanda has good reason not to identify herself, given that PA is constantly checking this site.

Secondly, she misunderstood your post (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=496222#post496222)--and I can see why. It's not at all clear.

Thirdly, I well remember your reaction when you first arrived and I referred to PA as a printer and not a publisher, and said PA books weren't edited. You were pretty angry with me--and with very little rational reason. Remember this (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=145215#post145215) ?

So chill.

Christine N.

02-18-2006, 04:29 AM

And I think, no I KNOW that Amanda understands that now. Obviously. She's contacted a lawyer and taken steps to get her work back.

She just didn't come in here saying that PA was the Devil Incarnate. Give her a break. I don't understand your hostility.

ResearchGuy

02-18-2006, 05:29 AM

From the PAMB:

Barnes & Noble store told me today that they can't keep enough of my books in the store. They have been ordering the book since mid-January ... they are constantly receiving calls for my book! ...

Interesting. I wonder whether, next fall, the royalties will match that picture.

--Ken

SeanDSchaffer

02-18-2006, 05:40 AM

Snipped....

She just didn't come in here saying that PA was the Devil Incarnate.

....Snipped.

That's how I first came to this forum. I didn't want to say PA was bad or good. I just wanted to get the facts concerning them. I didn't become anti-PA until some time later.

Ken, try to understand that Amanda is trying to get facts on her publisher that could help her out. She might not be sure of a lot of things right now, and your posts do seem rather inflammatory. So please, Ken, try to be nicer to her. She might not have the anti-PA stance outwardly that many of us have, but she is here looking looking for the facts that she can use to get out of a bad contract. That, I think, says quite a bit.

DaveKuzminski

02-18-2006, 05:54 AM

Odds are good some people who were libeled in some of these cathartic PA books heard about it and raised a stink. Naturally PA would want to keep this quiet. Probably getting permissions never occured to PA until recently.

This could be connected to why over a thousand PA books never sold a copy. PA might have been forced to shut down those books because of libel suit threats.

Sheryl Nantus

02-18-2006, 05:55 AM

From the PAMB:

Interesting. I wonder whether, next fall, the royalties will match that picture.

--Ken

I'm more concerned that PA is taking their own sweet time to fill the order and how many of those will be left behind when she runs out of family and friends...

because the average bookstore browser ain't gonna pay no $25 for an unknown book...

it's been barely a month - it won't last.

DaveKuzminski

02-18-2006, 06:06 AM

Amanda, you might want to suggest to your lawyer that he contact me at prededitors@att.net because I might have information that I can share with him.

PVish

02-18-2006, 06:14 AM

From the PAMB: Barnes & Noble store told me today that they can't keep enough of my books in the store.

From the PAMB:
Interesting. I wonder whether, next fall, the royalties will match that picture.

Since the official release date for the book in question was Feb. 13, that post is puzzling. How many orders could the B&N have made if they've been ordering since mid-January?

And in her post, there's also this:
. . . there are many people who are asking me why the book isn't readily available at the major bookstores. It's difficult to explain that whole process and, I must say, kind of puzzling.

Another PAMB poster asks about a convention. Wonder how infocenter will answer this:
Has anyone heard anything about a PA convention in 2006? The last one looked like a blast!

Looked like? From the photos on the PA site, no doubt. Looks can be deceiving when the PA site is concerned.(Is there anyone still on the PAMB who went to the other convention?)

PVish

02-18-2006, 06:23 AM

This could be connected to why over a thousand PA books never sold a copy. PA might have been forced to shut down those books because of libel suit threats.

I wonder if PA will start returning rights to authors whose books might contain libelous remarks? You'd think they'd want to get rid of those books right away.

It would only take an author or two taunting a former former abuser with "Nyah-nyah--I wrote a book about how bad you treated me and now the world will know!" for libel suits to start rolling in. And with 17,000 authors, think of the potential. . . .

Stan Jozwiak

02-18-2006, 06:35 AM

Some of you do not appear to know what the LLLP stands for in Publish America LLLP. According to The Business Owner’s Toolkit website at http://www.toolkit.cch.com/text/P12_4275.asp

"What is an LLLP? It is a limited liability limited partnership or, more specifically, a limited partnership (LP) (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/P12_4235.asp) that registers under state law so the general partner will have limited liability (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/P12_4310.asp), similar to the limited partners. This is similar to the process of a general partnership registering to be recognized as a limited liability partnership (LLP) (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/P12_4265.asp), so that all of the owners have limited liability.The LLLP form primarily is used to convert an existing limited partnership previously created under state law. However, it also will probably prove popular as an alternative to forming an LLC in those states that allow foreclosure of an owner's business interest, and forced liquidation (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/P12_4445.asp) of the business, by the owner's personal creditors."

This means that Willem Meiners, the general partner of Publish America, LLLP, and all the other partners in the limited partnership, and Publish America itself is judgement proof.
You ought to be able to rescind your contract providing you comply with clause 24 of your contract and buy 100 of your books from PA when you request the recission. In the event that PA refuses to rescind your contract after you buy your own books, you can go to arbitration where the arbiter might rule that PA will rescind your contract if you agree to buy 80 of your books. If you decide to file a court case instead, the strong possibility exsists that your own lawyer will advise you to sign a stipulation that you will agree to purchase 40 of your own books and PA will agree to rescind your contract, and the case will be dropped.
The contract is a boilerplate legal document. LLLP is a judgement proof entity.
No, I am not a lawyer and I am not offering any legal advice with this posting. I am a pompous know-it-all who could in fact be wrong.
Respectfully,
Stan Jozwiak

SC Harrison

02-18-2006, 07:46 AM

You ought to be able to rescind your contract providing you comply with clause 24 of your contract and buy 100 of your books from PA when you request the recission.

In case you're not merely joking with this recommendation,, I want to point out a few things:

Clause 24 of my contract says nothing about buying any (much less 100) copies of my book. Indeed, doing this may make it even less likely to have the contract rescinded, since this act would make this section "...the public demand for the work is no longer sufficient to warrant its continued manufacture..." not applicable, and may also lead them to believe future purchases by the author are possible.

Even if this approach made it easier to nullify/void/rescind/whatever the PA contract, I (and many others here) would strongly recommend against this course, because it would benefit PA more than anyone else; it would give them approximately $1,000 gross from one transaction, and allow them to dodge future (individual) retail sales. Outside of arbitration, the best thing a PA author can do is not buy any books, period.

If you were joking, sorry for the lecture.

Ilovepensandpaper

02-18-2006, 08:24 AM

I finally printed out all my emails with PA. I did it last night. Stuff has been terribly slipping my mind...

I've read some posts about having proof for arbitrations, like money spent and the like. Well, I didn't spend money on any books. The copyright, and a stamp was it. However, there was a lot of TIME put into this. There were emails (to PA and bookstores), phone calls, website, and the manuscript itself. I didn't plan to buy any books because I thought PA was going to provide books for promotion. I guess I found out stuff really earlier. What can I do to help my case? I have contacted a few lawyers by email, and I just found the lawyers on the Starving Artists site. I'm not on top of stuff like I want to be at the moment, forgive me.
Is what PA doing have anything to do with fraud? I found a fraud site online:
http://www.fraudaid.com/index.htm
OT, I sent one of my poems off to a greeting card place, and plan to send some into a contest. Anyone who plays the poetry game on the poetry forum will find some poems of mine there. A friend of mine bought my poetry book (without me twisting his arm into a bloody mess). He really liked my work and emailed my a long email about it. I was awed! He wants me to autograph his book. He said my book kept drawing him in, which is hard to do because he hates to read! HeHeHe...good writer, wrong publisher!

James D. Macdonald

02-18-2006, 08:39 AM

Personal for Shelagh:

I''ve tried to sign up with Leylandtown.info twice now.

What I get is:

function editor_generate() { return false;} Thanks for the participation to the growth of our website!
Your participation will be noted and published on-line after validation by the webmaster.

and

Activation Key Not Found!

Your activation key was not found in our database.

Please try registering again by clicking the Register link at the top right hand corner.

If this problem persists, please contact the Administrator (forum@leylandtown.info) of the forums.

and
There Was A Problem With Your Details

E-mail Address already in use, Please Choose Another

Since you made your "invitation" in a forum that I can't read and don't have access to, and since Leylandtown.info is apparently a screwed up site (it may not allow access to anyone on this side of the Atlantic, and I'm almost positive that no one in town other than yourself is the slightest bit interested in PA), and since I don't particularly want to talk to you in the first place (I'd far rather talk directly with Carl Baxter -- it's only if you're PA's "best debater" that I'd consider talking to you at all), how about you come up with a place that I can actually access, and have Carl or someone tell me where that place is. You can email me directly -- yog@sff.net -- if you're serious. If not, well, don't make claims you can't back up.

I've given two chat locations that you, or I, or anyone can go to without needing to sign up and get a password.

If you don't like those, suggest somewhere reasonable. Leylandtown appears to be a non-starter.

Aconite

02-18-2006, 01:31 PM

He also wants me to get proof that I can't get my books into any bookstores except by extraordinary means. He's going to check out their website too in an effort to prove that I was intentionally misled.
Phil Dolan's arbitration was successful in large part because he proved PA did not make his book available for sale as outlined in the contract. In that arbitration, PA admitted they focus on sales to the author, not the general public. This contradicts the claims on their website. Amanda, is your lawyer one who deals primarily with publishing? You'll need one who does.

Sounds like you're off to a good start. Good luck.

Aconite

02-18-2006, 01:33 PM

Amanda, Ken, take it to Overflow (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26568) if you can't drop it.

This goes for anyone else getting into personal business instead of talking about PA directly, too.

Aconite

02-18-2006, 01:40 PM

[size=2]Some of you do not appear to know what the LLLP stands for in Publish America LLLP. Stan, IIRC, Maryland doesn't recognize LLLPs.

PA try to present themselves as something they're not? Perish the thought!

AmandaPA

02-18-2006, 05:07 PM

MacAllister

02-18-2006, 05:26 PM

Or can PA just do whatever it wants to its authors with no retribution?Well--that sort of seems to be the assumption they operated under, so far.

I'm sorry, Amanda. It's always nasty to feel like you've deliberately been lied to.

Tilly

02-18-2006, 06:43 PM

My contract was sign a year ago today and I haven't received my cover yet. How many authors out there took longer than the year? What is the longest it might take for my book to be published?

Hasn't PA broken their contract in this instance?

ByGrace

02-18-2006, 06:44 PM

I'd like to point out that even if PA does terminate the employees, one could still subpoena them. Just because they no longer work at PA doesn't mean they can't testify about what happened when they did work there.

Not long ago, I met a writer who had gone for a job interview at PA. She told me they wanted her to sign a non-disparagement clause and she turned the job offer down. She smelled a rat. So, do they gag their employees as well? Looks that way. She also told me she had found out about the job opening from a good friend of hers. Her friend no longer works there, and I was told she was afraid to talk about PA because of the gag clause.

I’ve been reading the AW boards and was interested in Amanda’s posts about arbitration. I’ve heard from two authors who have sent PA certified letters. After some time had passed the authors had not received a reply. They contacted PA via email and phone calls and both authors were told their letters would go unread. This is important to know for anyone else who is going to send them certified letters. I guess PA knows what a certified letter means.... An author is asking for their rights back. So they ignore them.

I am not sure what the laws are pertaining to delivering mail. But it could be that authors are addressing the letters to ‘Publish America’, and not anyone in particular in the company. It might be wise to address the letters directly, and send Meiners, Clopper, and Prather each individual letters.

One other thing to keep in mind for those who may go to arbitration. Since Phil Dolan’s case, there is a judge in Frederick County who now knows what kind of company is being run down on Church Street. One thing I would have liked to have seen is an article in the Frederick News Post - ‘Author Sues Local Publishing Scam’.

Sheryl Nantus

02-18-2006, 07:33 PM

I just found out that my book is listed with Ingrams as non-returnable even though it has the new decreased discount of only 5%. Isn't it fraud to tell authors that their books are returnable and then not make them so? Or can PA just do whatever it wants to its authors with no retribution?

unfortunately most authors who sign with PA have little if any knowledge about the publishing world... and believe what PA tells them via the DisInfoCenter, of course.

the entire "returns" thing is being touted as "experimental" on PA's part, so they can weedle their way out of any actual discussion about it. They also blame Ingram's for the low discount, stating that it's up to Ingram's to set the amount.

again, they count on the ignorance of the average PA author to let them get away with this. That, and the number of PA authors who back them up with unsubstantiated facts and blatant lies about the publishing world in order to keep everyone in the fold.

Stan Jozwiak

02-18-2006, 07:49 PM

I am not sure what the laws are pertaining to delivering mail. But it could be that authors are addressing the letters to ‘Publish America’, and not anyone in particular in the company. It might be wise to address the letters directly, and send Meiners, Clopper, and Prather each individual letters.

Respectfully, it would not make a difference if you addressed the letters to

Willem Meiners, President and General Partner

Publish America LLLP

111 East Church Street

Frederick MD 21701

The letter would be delivered. It would not be read. You would get an e-mail from Jessica of the Author's Support Team snippily telling you to communicate with PA by e-mail only.

icerose

02-18-2006, 08:00 PM

AmandaPA

02-18-2006, 08:30 PM

Tilly

02-18-2006, 08:47 PM

I have contacted them several times and in the last email they stated that I would be assigned a cover designer sometime in mid March. I signed my contract on Feb. 14 2005 and PA sent the email that it was received by them on the 17th. From what I understood from one of the emails I had received is that the year didn't start until the final draft was sent in, which was a month later.

This is the same lady who has waited a year since signing the contract, and hasn't had her cover design, let alone a book. I thought it was one year after the contract that the books were meant to be produced by? Otherwise it could become a very amorphous 'year', from whenever PA claims to have received the final draft.

James D. Macdonald

02-18-2006, 09:09 PM

To learn more about the deal with PA agreeing with whatever you said, if they fail to read and respond ... talk with a competent lawyer. Really. This isn't something that you ought to do on the 'Net.

Oh, yes... some PA contracts now specify 720 days for contract completion.

Christine N.

02-18-2006, 09:10 PM

Could be one year after the edits were done and approved. That would lengthen PA's timeline (and the honeymoon period) considerably.

James D. Macdonald

02-18-2006, 09:29 PM

At any rate, I found out that I am not a talented author, just a person with an imagination that led him to believe that he may have some talent.

You don't know that. An acceptance from PA means nothing. Not that you're good, not that you're bad, all it means is you have a manuscript.

ResearchGuy

02-18-2006, 10:13 PM

...I thought it was one year after the contract that the books were meant to be produced by?...
I believe the wording is "begin production" within a year. Meaningless. Any step towards the printing of a copy (spellchecking, selecting clipart for the cover, ANYTHING) would do. The wording is, undoubtedly, deliberately misleading. They will get around to actually having copies made when they jolly well feel like it.

--Ken

mdin

02-18-2006, 10:38 PM

I believe the wording is "begin production" within a year. Meaningless. Any step towards the printing of a copy (spellchecking, selecting clipart for the cover, ANYTHING) would do. The wording is, undoubtedly, deliberately misleading. They will get around to actually having copies made when they jolly well feel like it.

--Ken

Yes.

Someone was complaining a while back on the PA board that it was almost a year, and infocenter chimed in saying all they have to do is "begin" production. The author gave a snarky reply, and the thread disappeared.

DaveKuzminski

02-19-2006, 03:19 AM

This means that Willem Meiners, the general partner of Publish America, LLLP, and all the other partners in the limited partnership, and Publish America itself is judgement proof.
Stan, there ain't no company or person who's judgment proof if they're found guilty of fraud. So far, they've been lucky that nothing worse has happened to them. That luck will eventually run out. When it does, you can bet that they will find they are not judgment proof.

Berry

02-19-2006, 04:27 AM

Stan, there ain't no company or person who's judgment proof if they're found guilty of fraud.

And further, as I understand it, "judgment proof" doesn't mean they can do whatever they like with impunity. It means that if someone sues them successfully and wins a big judgment, they won't be able to collect it from PA.

PA might have to declare bankruptcy and liquidate under chapter seven, though, which would also be a satisfactory resolution.

Whoever does this might not collect the full award, but they could bring down this scam.

icerose

02-19-2006, 04:38 AM

To learn more about the deal with PA agreeing with whatever you said, if they fail to read and respond ... talk with a competent lawyer. Really. This isn't something that you ought to do on the 'Net.

You're right. Feel free to trim or delete the post. Wouldn't want to cut off anyone's chances of breaking free.

Ilovepensandpaper

02-19-2006, 05:04 AM

From the PAMB- Authors' Lounge (Holy Cow! Look at this...)
My B&N.com sales ranking today is 62,149! Am I dreaming or what? http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif This is a great day. (Author One)

http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif YOU GO GIRL!!!!!!!!!! (Author Two)

I'm trying, I'm trying...thank you! (Author One)
Way to go!!! (Author Three)

Hey that is great news! We are so proud of you. http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif (Another Author)

Congratulations! Is just wonderful. But do you know what exactly that wants to say? Mine is 54259 on buy.com. Thank you for your answer and best luck for your book. (Another)

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=11280

I don't get this at all. 62,149 and 54259 are LARGE numbers! I wouldn't want a ranking like that, or is there something I don't know? 62,149 out of what? 54259 out of what?

Lady of Prose

02-19-2006, 05:16 AM

"Millions"

Tilly

02-19-2006, 05:29 AM

No Amazon ranking means that no books have been sold via them. A ranking in the millions means one or two books have been sold.

I have no idea what 60,000 would be mean on B&N, I'm guessing better than average for a PA book.

Most PA books seem to have a ranking of 50-60,000 on buy.com, I think it's the equivalent to millions on Amazon.

Unfortunately for PA authors, most book sales take place in brick and mortar stores, and people tend to buy books from online retailers they already know the title of, rather than browsing and picking up new authors. I can see why PA authors get excited at the rankings, but it's pretty meaningless.

akaa1a

02-19-2006, 05:30 AM

Yep, at least 2.2 million. At least that's where my PA book is hovering nicely, indicating that no one gives a rip about it! Or, thankfully, buying it!
(whew...no cash for the PA coffers that way!)

It's even discounted 30%! Sounds like all the makin's of a contract reversal to me!

Stan Jozwiak

02-19-2006, 06:00 AM

Yeah but by law and according to your contract they have to reply. Maryland has a set timelimit in which they have to reply in an accepted matter from the date they sign for it. By law if they do not they are in agreeance with whatever you sent them and it will hold up in court.

(At least that's what it was last year.)

I am not a lawyer and I know nothing about the law. I suspect the reason that PA does not handle snail mail is because unlike a proper office, PA has no secretaries or filing cabinets. I suspect that the whole organization may be housed in a private house. It just might have a couple of dozen computer terminals, and it can do all of its business from them
Respectfully,
Stan Jozwiak

TracySutterer & GaryRogers

02-19-2006, 06:36 AM

Tilly

02-19-2006, 07:09 AM

My health is way more important than PublishAmerica.

Of course :Hug2:

ResearchGuy

02-19-2006, 07:29 AM

...I suspect that the whole organization may be housed in a private house. It just might have a couple of dozen computer terminals, and it can do all of its business from them
Respectfully,
Stan Jozwiak
You are probably right. It may also be that most of those terminals are in private homes of employees, not even in a company office.

FWIW, I suspect that email allows more room for plausible deniability, too -- unlike registered and certified mail with return receipt.

--Ken

James D. Macdonald

02-19-2006, 08:26 AM

Shelagh has agreed to a debate on PublishAmerica.

The address is: http://s15.invisionfree.com/Debate/index.php?showtopic=4

Gravity

02-19-2006, 11:46 AM

[QUOTE=James D. Macdonald]Shelagh has agreed to a debate on PublishAmerica.

Oh, lord-a-mercy, Unk. This'll be...interesting. A question: any bets as to how long the addy will stay up on the PAMB until Wille and the Poor Boys delete it?

And another question (putting on my Sgt. Hartman voice from Full Metal Jacket): "Private Baxter! Otherwise known as Private White Rose! Do you mean to tell ME you don't pack the GEAR to debate your position with a man? You're gonna let a WOMAN do it?? I do not be-LEIVE you!"

Well, yeah, I do, actually.

Get 'em, Unk. As they said in Sparta before a battle, "With your shield or on it." Make us proud, bro.

John

JimmyD1318

02-19-2006, 04:14 PM

I put that link into my 'favorites'. I've got to see how this goes! Could be pretty fun.

Christine N.

02-19-2006, 04:44 PM

I've been thinking about it, and I almost understand Shelagh's POV. (I don't want to post over there, because frankly I've had enough of her... so if I make any sense, UJ, or anyone else, feel free to copy and paste this) I'm not speaking badly about her, just making some observations.

She wanted to write a book, and she did. She's not a writer, and has no career aspirations to be a writer. She's said as much. Just wrote a story. She submits to agents and publishers, finding out it's not up to industry standard. Not wanting to put in more time and energy in this book (after all, she's not a writer, she has better things to do) she finds PA. She knows what PA is. She does. And decides to go with them so that the book can be printed and she can feel good about herself. From her other posts, I think she wrote the book more for herself and for her brother's children than for the world. Which is fine... admirable, even.

She wants to believe she's raising money for cancer research, she wants the book to be read by children. Not having personally read the book, only hearing about it from others, I will not judge her work.

PA printed her book, put on her cover and off she goes. She feels no animosity towards PA, since she got everything she wanted. She never questioned PA, so they've never given her a tone letter, never told her that she was WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, in front of other PA authors, like a three year old who had an accident.

We'll compare her experience to someone else's. A random, hypothetical writer. A person who DOES have aspirations of a career as a writer, like many, MANY PA writers I've seen on the boards. Soots, Beebomb, Sandra, for example. They wanted to write a book, so they did. Whether or not they were rejected prior I don't know, so we'll go back to my hypothetical writer.

Hypothetical Writer submits work. Perhaps to two places, one being PA. PA accepts before the other place gets back. Writer is accepted, yay! Writer, not knowing what PA is, thinks they have what it takes, and doesn't work on improving their craft. They do a dance!

Then they realize, slowly, that PA is not going to put their book into bookstores, that PA is not going to promote their work, and that their book is going to be so expensive that no one outside of their family will purchase it. Undeterred, they try and try and try - the do signings, they sell a few books. Books that they had to purchase up front, because every chain store has a strict policy against ordering PA books (ok, some you can get into, but they are the RARE exception) They get their royalty check and realize what has happened. They look in their basement and see boxes of books that they may never sell. The question PA and get 'tone' letters. This company that was supposed to start their career now dresses them down at every turn, just because they questioned how PA does business.

The difference between Shelagh and Hypothetical Writer is what they wanted. Shelagh wanted an outlet for her grief (I think) and she got it. She held the book in her hands. Hypothetical Writer wanted to be a real writer, and got the Published Author Fantasy Camp.

If I'm wrong, she's free to post on the other board where I went wrong.

xhouseboy

02-19-2006, 05:16 PM

Shelagh has agreed to a debate on PublishAmerica.

The address is: http://s15.invisionfree.com/Debate/index.php?showtopic=4

No comment.

Replace the double m with an s and a t - an anagram for what I'm really thinking.

SeanDSchaffer

02-19-2006, 06:14 PM

After many weeks of meditation and prayer - I am waving the White Flag of Surrender. If you are perplexed as to why I have decided to take such a drastic action, please click on the link below:

http://www.useless-knowledge.com/1234/06feb/article185.html

After you have read and absorbed my thought processes which were conveyed in the article above, please understand this one factor - My health is way more important than PublishAmerica. As one famous General of the U.S. Army once commented during World War Two - “It is better to lose a battle and win the war - than the other way around.”

....Snipped.

Argile,

I understand where you're coming from. You're right: your health is definitely more important than PA is. I wish you all the best, Sir, and I hope that you can regain the joy that came with your writing at one time.

In the mean time, I hope you get better soon, and that your hiatus will bring you the rest you need. Good luck to you, Argile, and I hope we will hear from you again in the near future.

I'll talk to you later.

Sincerely,

Sean D. Schaffer

Sheryl Nantus

02-19-2006, 06:50 PM

Shelagh has agreed to a debate on PublishAmerica.

The address is: http://s15.invisionfree.com/Debate/index.php?showtopic=4

there's nothing yet on the PAMB.

I'm shocked.

Arden19

02-19-2006, 06:58 PM

SeanDSchaffer

02-19-2006, 07:05 PM

I haven't been here in forever. But, I got news yesterday that I have to shout from the mountain tops!

I got paragraph 17'd yesterday. As of Feb. 15th, I am no longer a PA author! No strings attached, all rights are back to me.

YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hello,

I'm glad to hear you got out of your contract, but I am curious: my own contract has Paragraph 17 as a marketing and promotion paragraph. I take it your contract is different than mine.

Is the Paragraph 17 in yours similar to the Paragraph 24 in my own? The famous "When in the Judgment of the Publisher, the public demand for the work is no longer sufficient to warrant its continued manufacture...." paragraph?

In any case, congratulations. I wish you all the best.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

PVish

02-19-2006, 08:07 PM

there's nothing yet on the PAMB.

I'm shocked.

You didn't look quick enough. She posted the debate URL on the PAMB Author's Lounge. Luckily I copied it early this morning:

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 4:24 am** *Post subject: You are invited

As requested by James D. Macdonald, a debate has begun and can be viewed here:

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Debate/index.php?showtopic=4&st=0

The debate is one-to-one and may only be viewed.

Shelagh
_________________
Shelagh Watkins
Mr. Planemaker's Flying Machine
http://shelaghwatkins.co.uk/

Anybody want to bet that this got her banned?

icerose

02-19-2006, 08:32 PM

OKay that's the fourth author they have dumped. Hope all others who want freedom get it!!!

TracySutterer & GaryRogers

02-19-2006, 08:51 PM

Shelagh,

Two of your posts from the long thread on the private board have been pulled. Your post on the public board has been pulled.

What does this translate too? PA will not support you. You will not receive kudos from this company. In payment for your support you will be banned and PA will laugh at you while they push the 'ban' button. PA is a cruel and uncaring company. They could care less about you or your support.

Your 'friends' on that board are telling you not to pursue this debate.

What does that translate too?

None of your 'friends' will support you either. They don't have the guts to go against PA on this matter. Very soon, your 'friends' on that board will start shoving knives into your back so it will appear that they no longer associate with you. Your 'friends' will disappear one at a time. They don't want to be banned too.

This is the usual routine on the PA board. I've lived it many times. I can tell you all of this from experience. You may, of course, do as you wish with this matter, but I already know how this will all end. This drama has already been played out many many times.

Tracy

PVish

02-19-2006, 09:09 PM

If PA had sense enough to realize that they're going to have to pay out a humongous amount of postage to mail out statements to authors who have sold only one or two-or maybe no books—they'd start releasing books left and right. Just keeping up with 17,000 (or is it more now?) authors has to be a bookkeeping nightmare and a big expense in itself. If they send out 17,000 royalty statements first class (Do they send first class?), postage would be $6,630. Plus envelopes. And don't forget minimum wage for an envelope stuffer.

Hey, yo!—PA lurker-person who watches this forum: Suggest to the head honchos that they dump the authors whose books aren't selling, the authors whose books might be libelous or in violation of copyright/trademark, and anybody else who wants out. PA could save a bundle!

ResearchGuy

02-19-2006, 10:15 PM

A book that is published by the author has all the authority the author brings to it, but little else.
It is not quite that simple. A professionally self-published book--one that is published according to industry standards--has not only the authority of the author, but also the validation of pre-publication reviewers (quoted in jacket blurbs), trade reviewers (who have received and reviewed ARCs or bound galleys), and ultimately of trade channel book buyers (those who make selections for bookstores and other outlets) and ultimately of readers. Those are exactly the same kinds of validations available to commercially published books.

Depending on the type of book, such a book might also have the validation (or authority) of the writer of a foreword or introduction as well as authority conferred by acknowledgments. (Have you ever read the acknowledgements of a nonfiction book with an eye on what sorts of people had a hand in the development of the book? Some folks do.)

It is not black and white, self-published vs. commercially published, as self-publishing done right (that is, fully according to publishing norms) is, in all pertinent respects, fully equivalent to commercial publishing. (One learns that from working with successful, professional self-publishers, for whom the undertaking is a business--commercial publishing done on a small scale.)

Ok ... so, where does PA come in. First, it is NOT self-publishing (PA, not the author, owns the ISBN and manages the steps involved in reaching print). Second, it does not allow for real reviews. ARCs--"advance review copies" or "advance reading copies"--are not distributed to reviewers, and serious reviewers--for newspapers, magazines, trade journals--are generally not willing to review a book after it has already been published, although small-timers might. Third, the books are not available through normal trade channels. And of course PA is not commercial publishing in the normal sense (notwithstanding that the company is a commercial enterprise, a business). It is more of a facilitator of printing/binding services for individual authors.

PA pretty much offers all of the disadvantages of poorly done self-publishing and none of the advantages of well done self-publishing or of normal commercial publishing. It also has the added drawbacks of the seven-year rights grab, inflated list prices, limited availability, expectation that the author will purchase in bulk, and the whole "tone letter" milieu and self-referential, mutually congratulatory cult mentality that confuses its authors as to the nature of the transaction.

--Ken

P.S. If a vanity publisher is defined as one whose books are predominantly sold to or through its authors, then PA is a vanity publisher. Its business model is to sell books in bulk to the authors and to sell directly to individuals (primarily family and friends) whose contact information is provided to PA by the author. The model does NOT depend on normal trade channel sales, and in fact is designed to discourage such sales. Costs are recouped and profits made through inflated pricing combined with captive market (the authors directly and by proxy).

DeePower

02-19-2006, 10:56 PM

It isn't how we classify the true business model of PA, it's how PA presents itself through its website and communication to its authors.

Below are some quotes from PA's rebuttal to a complaint I filed at the BBB.

Actually our business model is traditional...... Our business model is nearly identical to that of most major publishers.

Our marketing efforts are in line what is done by most major publishers.

We are not at all a “publish on demand” or POD publisher. We would have very little in common with any such publisher, vanity publisher, or subsidy publisher. You will find our marketing practices and business model to be closest to that of the largest major publishing houses.

Dee

Lady of Prose

02-19-2006, 11:03 PM

The only marketing I've seen PA attempt has been associated with selling to their authors. Any positive news event, accomplishment by a fellow PA author or (supposed) shift in policy is used as an excuse to offer "special discounts" to authors. Even the New York Times PA Bestseller list was nothing more than an experiment to see how many books the authors would purchase.

Absolutely how it goes. And along with that, most of the authors are spending hundreds, if not thousands of dollars to promote their books that they bought from PA--giving them no weight at all in the "real publishing world," and also encourages more sheep to sign up for the slaughter.

SC Harrison

02-19-2006, 11:39 PM

P.S. If a vanity publisher is defined as one whose books are predominantly sold to or through its authors, then PA is a vanity publisher. Its business model is to sell books in bulk to the authors and to sell directly to individuals (primarily family and friends) whose contact information is provided to PA by the author. The model does NOT depend on normal trade channel sales, and in fact is designed to discourage such sales. Costs are recouped and profits made through inflated pricing combined with captive market (the authors directly and by proxy).

Therin lies the problem, Ken. If you ask the average person who is not intimately familiar with publishing issues, and has never heard anything about the PA debate, they will tell you that vanity publishers charge a fee to produce a book. If you explain to them that PA doesn't charge an upfront fee (other than the $30.00 Copyright fee) and doesn't contractually require the author to buy anything, their first reaction is, "Sounds like a good deal to me."

This is a big reason why PA snares so many people, and one of the reasons they got me. They don't fit the classic definition of a vanity press, which is what (I believe) Shelagh is attempting to prove. I also understand your resistance to categorizing PA as self-publishing, and many of your arguments are correct. But, if you consider the facts that PA authors are responsible for 100% of the marketing of their book; they personally apply for the Copyright of said book; they set up web pages to promote their book and they (alone) pursue media exposure and/or reviews for their book, they are in practice self-publishing, they just don't know it.

I know you are a stickler for details, which is good. The problem is, PA has developed a business model which defies normal definitions. If we rule out everything they are not (which is what they count on), we come up with nothing understandable by the average person. While we may point out that the phrase "traditional publisher" was coined by PA, it is readily understood by Joe Public. On the other hand, the term "vanity in reverse" which was coined here, I believe, is not so easily understood by the public at large.

So, the question is: do we tailor our message to people who are already knowledgable in the field of publishing, or do we attempt to make the message understandable by all? I have a feeling the former are much less in need of a warning than the latter, but I may be mistaken.

ResearchGuy

02-20-2006, 01:06 AM

....they will tell you that vanity publishers charge a fee to produce a book....
Most do. The old-line vanity presses such as Dorrance and Vantage (are there others along that model?) also charge a HEFTY price for copies of the auhor's book, in addition to maybe tens of thousands of dollars up front. They get the fees coming and going. But they are not POD, and do produce some copies in an initial print run. (Might not bind them all, though ... been a long time since I looked into that.)

Anyway, I like the term "crypto vanity publisher" for PA, as its fees are disguised. Plainly, however you label it, its business model is to make money by selling copies of the author's book TO the author.

Seems to me that the key here is to focus on the business model:

Selling to the author, not to the trade = vanity press.

What makes the business profitable for PA is jacking up the selling price of the books while enticing the authors to buy in quantity (hence the unending b.s. about how publishing works).

Personally, I think the focus on the copyright fee is missing the point. It is more pertinent that PA does not do the usual paperwork of a publisher, does not deposit the required two copies with the Library of Congress, does not obtain Library of Congress catalog information to go into the book. (By its own failure to meet the MANDATORY deposit requirement, PA demonstrates that it is NOT a publisher. The case is open and closed by that measure alone.) The fee itself, in my opinion, is less important than those failures of normal publishing business practice. That the author pays the fee is more (in my opinion) of an artifact of the failure of PA to act like a real publisher. (I wonder whether anyone has queried the Library of Congress about PA's thousands and thousands of failures to meet the mandatory deposit requirement.)

I see the label "vanity in reverse" as confusing, if one views a vanity press as selling to the author rather than the trade. By that (reasonable, in my opinion) definition, there is no "reverse" about it. PA is a vanity press, plain and simple. However, the mechanics of its system tack the fees on at the end, not at the beginning (and deflect the copyright registration fee to the author). That, in turn, does allow some authors to see the book in print (two copies, plus the theoretical ability for other copies to be purchased) with only the out of pocket cost of the copyright fee AND with the nonmonetary (but real) cost of the seven-year rights grab. Hence (as costs are hidden or obfuscated), crypto vanity press.

PA is an equal opportunity exploiter, though, as it will as soon publish a good book as a bad one. Putting aside the question of manuscripts rejected only because quota has been reached for the day (or week, or whatever), one might suspect that most rejections are for authors who are recognized NOT to be candidates to buy enough copies of their own book (because they did not buy a first book with PA, or maybe because of other indicators that they will not buy and not wheedle enough friends and relatives into buying). PA plays the odds to reach the average sale of 75 or so copies per book, but presumably does what it can to improve the odds by filtering out the obvious non-purchasers.

Changing topics, here ... I wonder how many of the X thousand PA authors really had no intention of selling copies outside a small circle anyway. Some, of course (including some really bad writers, and probably some good ones) have higher aspirations. But I suspect that many have low expectations and are satisfied with the appearance of being a legitimately published author.

In any event ... while I appreciate your well reasoned views, it still seems to me that PA authors are not self-publishers (they do not even own the publishing rights to their own books! nor the ISBN!), but rather are forced to cope with the failures of a very bad excuse for a publisher. They are stuck with a company merely masquerading as a publisher.

(FWIW, hanging around for a few years now with genuine, professional, competent self-publishers has influenced my views. I hate to see them lumped in with folks who are not in that business. It is an apples-to-lugnuts comparison.)

--Ken

LloydBrown

02-20-2006, 02:12 AM

If If they send out 17,000 royalty statements first class (Do they send first class?), postage would be $6,630. Plus envelopes. And don't forget minimum wage for an envelope stuffer.

Yes, we've already determined that they're too stupid to use bulk mail for their royalty checks. They use first-class postage. At least--they did last time, and we know they read this board.

SC Harrison

02-20-2006, 02:14 AM

Selling to the author, not to the trade = vanity press.

What makes the business profitable for PA is jacking up the selling price of the books while enticing the authors to buy in quantity (hence the unending b.s. about how publishing works).

Most new PA authors probably believe the same thing I did: the discounted book sales to authors are just an added benefit to help them in their master sales plan. Later on, they realize buying and selling their own books may be the only way they can make it work, due to the extremely high price and low discount level for retailers.

Unfortunately, this realization is often slow in coming, and the deceptive information from PA's website combined with the "well managed" feedback from fellow authors on the PAMB keeps them motivated just long enough to part with their money.

It may be a different form of the vanity press than people are accustomed to, but it is a vanity, nonetheless.

DeePower

02-20-2006, 02:36 AM

This is paragraph 17 of the PA contract, or at least one of the versions I have.

Sales promotion, advertising and publicity, shall be at the Publisher’s election and discretion as to the extent, scope and character thereof and in all matters pertaining thereto. The author agrees to actively participate in promoting the sales of said literary work in his home town area and elsewhere by making himself available to media interviews, book readings/signings, and other public sales promotion appearances.

How could this paragraph be used to terminate an author's contract? And why would PA use this paragraph? It just says that the author will be available for media interviews, books readings/signings, and other public sales promotion appearances. It doesn't say that the author will set up the readings or appearances. Or generate the media appearances. Or even market their book. Just speculating of course.

It also strikes me as curious as to why there are all these terminations.

Dee

Tilly

02-20-2006, 02:42 AM

astonwest

02-20-2006, 02:45 AM

How could this paragraph be used to terminate an author's contract?
Insinuating the author hasn't done enough to promote their book locally...
It gives them more wiggle room than imposing clause 24, which referenced insufficient sales numbers.

I have my own theory on why certain folks are receiving terminations...

DeePower

02-20-2006, 02:45 AM

should immediately tell PA that they will no longer be available for any promotional activities.

Insinuating the author hasn't done enough to promote their book locally...

All the paragraph says is that the author has to be available for three things:

media interviews
book readings/signings
public sales promotion appearances.

If there aren't any set up, the author is in compliance.

This is not legal advice.

Dee

PVish

02-20-2006, 02:57 AM

Archiving this before it disappears over on the PAMB:

Can it be said that belief in the purpose of Publish America is nothing more than a blind commitment of the will? Are more than 17,000 writers wrong? Writers world-side whom have chosen Publish America to provide a vehicle for their ride to literary immortality? I think not.

The denial of PA as being good for authors of the world has less to do with facts and more to do with the bent of what a person is prejudiced to conclude. It is not the absence of evidence, but rather the suppression of it.

Of all the enterprises in which the human heart engages, none but religion lends itself more to abuse and manipulation than the activity of writing for publication—acceptance—validation.

Publish America antagonists cannot control their rage, demanding a sign that PA justify its business model but to PA’s credit rabid zealots are countered with quiet solitude. I think those questioning Publish America’s right to run their business as they see fit seem to retain selective sovereignty over what they allow as the purest method of publishing and what is not, an exercise in allegorical interpretation—believing in what one wishes, not what is.

I don’t care for the anti-PA published authors; they have their reward. I care for the unpublished, whom are merely pawns in a fruitless struggle. What a remarkable illustration of self-inflicted poverty, knowing it possible to hold one’s life quest, bound in hand, but opting instead for the wrapping.

Carl Baxter
Earth’s crammed with writers,
And every common bush afire with inspiration,
But only he who sees takes off his shoes,
The rest sit round it waiting to be called.

Maddog

02-20-2006, 03:10 AM

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=11165

Sher2

02-20-2006, 03:14 AM

I have my own theory on why certain folks are receiving terminations...
Would you care to share? I'm dying of Theory Overload here.

Sheryl Nantus

02-20-2006, 03:36 AM

Archiving this before it disappears over on the PAMB:

it's also up on Shelagh's board.

yawn.

if his book is written as well as his diatribe, I'd be snoozing by the end of the first page.

:ROFL:

SeanDSchaffer

02-20-2006, 03:39 AM

Most of you know that I have a book with PA. What most of you do not know is that I think I might be in violation of my contract.

According to Chapter 27, I covenant and represent that my literary work has not been published in book form before. I honestly feel stupid about all this, but several years before having gone with PA, I self-pubbed the work in book form. Back in 1998, I think, just after having copyrighted the work.

I've told PA about this; I'll see what they decide to do. But if I had just asked them about this in the first place, I would not have this problem now.

My question: what do I do beyond what I've already done? I must admit, I am concerned about this issue. I'm not the man I was back then, but still, the idea that this happened could tarnish my reputation as a writer and as an honest person.

It was a simple mistake, but I'm worried more will come of this than I had thought originally.

I don't know what to do.

Tilly

02-20-2006, 03:44 AM

Sean, I don't think PA would dare take legal action against you, but if they get nasty, go to a lawyer. In fact, going to a lawyer anyway would probably be best.
I don't think anything that's happened in relation to PA will tarnish your reputation as a writer.

Savannah Blue

02-20-2006, 03:48 AM

The spate of terminations is weird.

Perhaps Arden let PA know that they were no longer going to promote their book, and therefore wouldn't be available for the non-existant promotion from PA? That might be a technical reason why PA would use that clause. They use a clause of low sales when the author gets higher then average sales for a PA book.

I did just that, Tilly. Wrote them a nice, polite little letter informing them that I would never purchase my own book nor would I actively promote my book, and further that I had attempted to contact each person on my mailing list and asked them to not purchase my book. I received a scalding 'tone' letter back from them. That was September of '04 and I'm still waiting to be released from my contract.

Hearty congratulations to each person to be released recently!

Tilly

02-20-2006, 03:49 AM

Can it be said that belief in the purpose of Publish America is nothing more than a blind commitment of the will?

I'm not sure PA has a stated mission that its authors believe in. But I think they believed PA when they were told their books were being given the chance they deserved.

PA books have no chance. You could have written the best book in the world, and no one but your friends and family and perhaps a few others will know about it. This is because of PA's policies, for example, over promotion (it won't do any) and returns (it has actually made it harder for PA books to be stocked by book stores through its bogus returns policy).

The deserve part interests me. I think the owners of PA really do think you and your work don't deserve a chance.

Are more than 17,000 writers wrong?

17000 authors clearly do not support PA. 17000 authors could well have believed PA when it says it's a traditional publisher, and not a POD.

Writers world-side whom have chosen Publish America to provide a vehicle for their ride to literary immortality? I think not.

You're not immune to being misled by living in another country.

The denial of PA as being good for authors of the world has less to do with facts and more to do with the bent of what a person is prejudiced to conclude. It is not the absence of evidence, but rather the suppression of it.

I honestly don't know what information or evidence the author thinks is being suppressed.

Of all the enterprises in which the human heart engages, none but religion lends itself more to abuse and manipulation than the activity of writing for publication—acceptance—validation.

<cough> hyperbole <cough>

There is plenty of abuse and manipulation of new writers seeking publication, who don't yet have the knowledge to defend themselves against POD companies saying they are a traditional publisher and not a POD.

Publish America antagonists cannot control their rage, demanding a sign that PA justify its business model but to PA’s credit rabid zealots are countered with quiet solitude.

I don't want a sign.
I want PA to be honest about what it is. I want it to either become a commercial publisher as it implies it is, or be honest that it's a POD.
PA can't counter the criticisms against it. They're true.

I think those questioning Publish America’s right to run their business as they see fit seem to retain selective sovereignty over what they allow as the purest method of publishing and what is not, an exercise in allegorical interpretation—believing in what one wishes, not what is.

If this was about 'purity' of publication, by which I think he means advocating commercial publication over POD, there would be a never-ending Lulu thread, or a never-ending Xlibris thread.

I don’t care for the anti-PA published authors; they have their reward.

I think by reward he means commercial publication.

I care for the unpublished, whom are merely pawns in a fruitless struggle.

For many, many writers, the struggle for publication is not fruitless. I'm guessing that this author believes that PA is his only chance, that he stands none with commercial publishers.

What a remarkable illustration of self-inflicted poverty, knowing it possible to hold one’s life quest, bound in hand, but opting instead for the wrapping.

If your life quest is to hold two printed copies of your book in your hands then...nope, I'd still recommend Lulu.

SeanDSchaffer

02-20-2006, 03:52 AM

I'm not really worried about what PA might do. I'm worried about what the writing community at large will do. Having a bad reputation because of lying to a company--even PA--worries me.

Which is strange, because at the time I signed with them, I wasn't worried in the least bit about this stuff. I was just excited to have been offered a contract by anyone. I think that's what blinded my sense of honesty in the beginning. It's not to say I was right in doing what I did, but it's simply meant as a way of understanding why I did what I did.

Nexusman

02-20-2006, 04:19 AM

Are more than 17,000 writers wrong?

Numbers are NOT RELEVANT. If one person says something wrong, that person is wrong. However, if 100, or 1,000, or 17,000 say it, then they are assumed right strictly through their numbers. It doesn't matter if a billion people disagree, but facts are facts, A is A, and things are what they are. This also applies to PublishAmerica.

Enough objectivism from me for now.

-Nick

Sheryl Nantus

02-20-2006, 04:48 AM

The Church of Scientology has lots more members.

doesn't make them right either.

:D

akaa1a

02-20-2006, 04:52 AM

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=11321I think the "old" members she references must be the ones from 6 months ago. PA bans anyone else.

The poster should be relieved that we "old ones" who reside in the Village of the Banned aren't anywhere close to being able to post over there....cuz if we could, PA might spontaneously combust into a big pile of goo!
SPLAT!!!:e2tomato:

Christine N.

02-20-2006, 04:55 AM

Personal to Carl....

I think those questioning Publish America’s right to run their business as they see fit seem to retain selective sovereignty over what they allow as the purest method of publishing and what is not, an exercise in allegorical interpretation—believing in what one wishes, not what is.

We have no problem with PA running its business as it sees fit. We just want them to be honest and upfront about what they with their authors/customers. They lie. End of story. They also treat their authors, their source of income, with the utmost disdain. Just because you never received a 'tone' letter, or have been chastised by PA, doesn't mean they don't do it.

That you align yourself with a company that does these things speaks to your character. Is calling yourself a 'published author' worth it?

The fact is (and you seem to know this as well as anyone) that many PA authors indeed wouldn't be published by traditional houses with their manuscripts the way they submitted them. Reread that last statement. With guidance and effort learning their craft, quite a few of them COULD have been published. Some might never have, that's the way the numbers work in this business.

Ask yourself this - how did Saundra Julian speak of PA when you first came on the boards? How does she think of them now? Why do you think that is? And don't give me that crap about "oh, she wanted fortune and fame and didn't want to work for it" because we all know that's not true. I only mention her because she is the most recent person in your time to leave PA, and NOT happily.

You're gonna believe what you want, and spin things the way you want, but it doesn't make what you believe true. Facts, provable facts, are the truth - everything else is just opinion.

FACT: PA does NOT put its books in bookstores through its own efforts
FACT: PA prices its books at least $5 above commercial publisher's books, making them unattractive to buyers who have little money to spend on entertainment (remember, it's our business, it's THEIR entertainment)
FACT: PA sends out snotty, snarky, unprofessional letters to people who question their business practices.
FACT: PA has lied, in public, about at least one of their former authors and has sent police to another author's house in an attempt to frighten them.
FACT: PA does not vet its submissions, but takes everything that comes in before their quota was met for the day (or if comes from an author who didn't buy enough of their books the last time around)
FACT: PA has stated that they've paid over 1 mil in royalties. That works out to less than $100 per author.
FACT: Many PA books have never sold a copy. Larry Clopper said as much.
FACT: Industry professionals do not see a PA book as a publishing credit. (Contests are a different story - they probably see PA as vanity or self-publishing)
FACT: Chain bookstores, as a general policy, state that they do NOT stock POD books in their stores, therefore, the other FACT that I stated earlier (about not placing books on shelves) is proven twice.

Therefore: PA is NOT a commercial publisher, but a POD press who sells mainly to their own authors.

Saundra Julian

02-20-2006, 05:02 AM

OMG, it's like Chinese water torture to read that disgusting post!

Drip, drip, drip...and what the hell is all that suppose to mean? :eek:

I wish Jim wouldn't bother with that side-show debate... and I thought it was suppose to be a "one on one", so how did that obscenity get posted and why was it allowed to remain on the board?

Sounds like they're ganging up on Jim...
Not very nice, Shelagh, but then all you want is the attention, right?

Christine N.

02-20-2006, 05:14 AM

Ok, I'll bite on this one too....

I don’t care for the anti-PA published authors; they have their reward. I care for the unpublished, whom are merely pawns in a fruitless struggle. What a remarkable illustration of self-inflicted poverty, knowing it possible to hold one’s life quest, bound in hand, but opting instead for the wrapping.

This chaps my backside to no end. You act as if being published is a RIGHT, as if everyone who puts pen to paper is entitled to see their work in print for public consumption. I grant you, that if someone writes a book (or poetry, or anything) and they want a bound copy, and copies for friends and family, that's their right to do so.

But not every book that is written is fit for public consumption. Sorry, but that's the real world. Would you say that everyone who wants to be a doctor has the right to do so? Or that every artist/actor/dancer has is ENTITLED to be on Broadway or in a big Hollywood movie? There are hobby outlets for all of those artsy occupations, just as writers can also be hobbyist. Those are NOT published authors, but people who do it for a hobby, who enjoy the work and don't care if the world falls at their feet, or if anyone reads their work.

YOU WANT people to read your work, you have some idea that because you wrote it, it MUST be good enough.

Because PA told you so. So yes, some may have a fruitless struggle. Not to be mean, but welcome to life in the real world.

SeanDSchaffer

02-20-2006, 05:28 AM

You guys are right. I shouldn't worry about what I did two-and-a-half years ago. What's done is done; I can't change it.

However, I do apologize for having lied to the said company--even though it is PublishAmerica, what I did was still wrong--and I hope you'll all be willing to forgive me for it.

In the mean time, I won't worry about it further. I don't imagine PA will do much about it, and whatever the writing community does, it does.

At least I made known what I did, and I finally got two-and-a-half years' worth of worry off my chest.

Thanks, everyone.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

xhouseboy

02-20-2006, 05:41 AM

However, I do apologize for having lied to the said company--even though it is PublishAmerica, what I did was still wrong--and I hope you'll all be willing to forgive me for it.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

I forgive you.

Seriously, you're worrying over nothing, Sean.

You should take a stroll through my conscience.

Let s/he who has never blipped cast the first stone.

bloemmarc

02-20-2006, 05:56 AM

Ok, I don't remember the name of this paticular book, but I honestly did find a few copies of a publisher america book on the shelves in my local waldens bookstore

Tilly

02-20-2006, 05:58 AM

Another very important thing for authors to keep in mind is that most retailers and distributors have contracts that allow 30, 60 or 90 days to pay for the order. Authors are paid on books when PA has received payment.

My understanding is that, although that would be true with other publishers, PA books aren't printed until they are ordered and paid for. Would PA ever be in a position of waiting up to 90 days for payment?

Tilly

02-20-2006, 06:00 AM

Ok, I don't remember the name of this paticular book, but I honestly did find a few copies of a publisher america book on the shelves in my local waldens bookstore

Authors sometimes succeed in getting their local book shops to stock their book. This is completely as a result of the author's efforts, and frequently the books are there on consignment.

PA doesn't market to retailers, and its policies mean that no PA book has had widespread or national distribution.

Christine N.

02-20-2006, 06:01 AM

Ok, I don't remember the name of this paticular book, but I honestly did find a few copies of a publisher america book on the shelves in my local waldens bookstore

And you can bet that PA had NOTHING to do with getting it there - the author did. Jean Marie managed to get her book stocked in Borders, and she did ALL the work herself.

PA does NOT, through its own efforts, get its books stocked on bookshelves in ANY bookstore.

bloemmarc

02-20-2006, 06:05 AM

SeanDSchaffer

02-20-2006, 06:05 AM

Ok, I don't remember the name of this paticular book, but I honestly did find a few copies of a publisher america book on the shelves in my local waldens bookstore

I'd have to agree with the others who've posted concerning this. With every PA'er I've known, the work of getting books into bookstores has been exclusively the author's doing, never PA's.

I got my book into one store, and to my knowledge, it's the only brick-and-mortar store that ever carried my book.

Tilly

02-20-2006, 06:09 AM

I see
All I know isd though, the manager told me that waldens is a corporate chain bookstore, and that they need the permission from their headquarters first before they stack any books written from local authors, or such.

That sounds like the kind local manager checked it was okay with head office to stock the book in the store. But that doesn't mean the book will be stocked in other stores.

astonwest

02-20-2006, 06:09 AM

...the manager told me that waldens is a corporate chain bookstore, and that they need the permission from their headquarters first before they stack any books written from local authors, or such.
Maybe the author left them on the stacks...

That being said, if the book had stock in the Ingram system (if the book is old enough, it might have had some at the time), then the manager could have ordered those copies in. That was how my book ended up with more than 20 copies in a Waldenbooks...before they closed the store down a while later.

Did the book have a publication (or copyright) date inside?

mreddin

02-20-2006, 06:09 AM

Forgive me for any errors in my fallacy identification, feel free to PM me with corrections or suggestions. My intention is to explain to PA lurkers reading Carl's post lacks substance in the face of evidence and why.

Can it be said that belief in the purpose of Publish America is nothing more than a blind commitment of the will?

Logical Fallacy: Red Herring

Who actually stated that PublishAmerica is nothing more than a blind commitement to will? It is not part of the "Great Debate", nor has it been part of the NEPAT thread. While some here at AW and other websites have likened PA to a cult, the references are to the seemingly blind defense of the organization in spite of unflattering evidence. Carl has chosen very emotive wording to sway the reader, but the "detractors" of PA never actually made this claim, but Carl wants you to think they did.

Are more than 17,000 writers wrong?

Logical Fallacy: Ad Populum (Appeal to Popularity)

The idea that a large group of individuals cannot be mistaken in their thinking has been disproven many times. This argument is legion when discussing religion and the existince of god. Numerical superiority is not equivelent to correctness. Carl also takes the liberty in presuming that all 17,000 authors support his argument. They most certainly do not, if the folks at AW are representative.

The denial of PA as being good for authors of the world has less to do with facts and more to do with the bent of what a person is prejudiced to conclude. It is not the absence of evidence, but rather the suppression of it.

Logical Fallacy: Ad Hominem or Poisoning the Well

Carl chooses to attack PA detractors by presuming they're prejudiced. This apparently alleviates his burden of responsibility in showing that PA's detractors are in fact incorrect. While a detractor might be biased in their opinion of PA, this does not eliminate the facts of the detractors claim. Carl hopes you'll forget about the publication and discussion of these facts by prejudicing the reader. The fact that some of the detractors are prejudiced is irrelvant in the debate.

Of all the enterprises in which the human heart engages, none but religion lends itself more to abuse and manipulation than the activity of writing for publication—acceptance—validation.

How succinct. I am personally inclined to agree with this statement. However, it comes across as an "Appeal to Emotion", implying indirectly
that PublishAmerica equates with acceptance and validation. Herein
lies the heart of the dilemna and debate. If PublishAmerica indeed accepts
anything within the day's quota, are the feelings of acceptance and
validation, valid? Carl makes no attempt to elucidate his rationale here.

Publish America antagonists cannot control their rage demanding a sign that PA justify its business model but to PA’s credit rabid zealots are countered with quiet solitude.

Logical Fallacy: "Poisoning the Well" or Ad Hominem
Appeal to Ridicule
Red Herring
Appeal to Spite

Carl uses emotionally manipulative and derisive words to make PA detractors look bad. This technique is used in absence of an actual logical argument. By ridiculing his opponents, Carl hopes to invalidate their claims. As opposed to actually presenting evidence to do the job. Carl also mentions opponents desire to "justify its business model" which is neither part of the ongoing debate, nor has been mentioned by any of the known PA opponents. Carl is trying to divert your attention away from the real debate, and that is identifying whether or not PA can rightfully claim to be a "traditional publisher, that is not in any way a POD or vanity press." Furthermore, we ask if PA's business model is based on getting authors to buy their own books.

I think those questioning Publish America’s right to run their business as they see fit seem to retain selective sovereignty over what they allow as the purest method of publishing and what is not, an exercise in allegorical interpretation—believing in what one wishes, not what is.

This might be another "Red Herring", and another backhanded Ad Hominem for good measure. I'm not sure where "selective sovereignty" comes into the picture or who Carl is even referring to at this point.

This might also be the classic "Straw Man" fallacy, because PA detractors have in fact, made similar claims. Carl has turned that argument around by phrasing it using his own words, then attacking it. The difference here is that the detractors present evidence to support their claims, Carl does not.

I don’t care for the anti-PA published authors; they have their reward. I care for the unpublished, whom are merely pawns in a fruitless struggle. What a remarkable illustration of self-inflicted poverty, knowing it possible to hold one’s life quest, bound in hand, but opting instead for the wrapping.

Carl is an excellent emotive writer, but there is no meaning behind his words. Who are the unpublished pawns and who is using them? I presume that Carl is referring to the big publishing houses and people like Jim McDonald, but who knows? Who is illustrating self-inflicted poverty and what does it have to do specifically with the debate being held? This strikes me as "Appeal to Fear", implying the PublishAmerica is the only hope for the outright survival of would-be authors. This may be the greatest fallacy of them all. The entire purpose of NEPAT is to warn these same individuals that PA is a threat to their financial wellbeing through their misleading website and emails encouraging their authors to buy large quantities of their own books, at inflated prices, that cannot be reasonably sold to the trade market. Additionally, PublishAmerica encourages its authors to spend money on promotions, which are likely to fail due to the problems we've outlined many times in NEPAT and through other venues.

PublishAmerica's books that are priced outside the market. The books are poorly discounted, poorly edited, poorly designed and not available in most bookstores. When you weigh these factors together, you cannot justify authors spending their money on lavish promotions or buying batches of their own books for resale. This is the heart of our argument and Carl has not offered any refutation of these statements.

PS: The existence of logical fallacies does not mean that Carl is wrong.
However, it does demonstrate that he has not presented an
argument that can be validated or debated. He may well be
correct, but he needs to present us with concrete facts and
he may well do so at a later time.

Regards,

Mike

Tilly

02-20-2006, 06:10 AM

Maybe the author left them on the stacks...

That being said, if the book had stock in the Ingram system (if the book is old enough, it might have had some at the time), then the manager could have ordered those copies in. That was how my book ended up with more than 20 copies in a Waldenbooks...before they closed the store down a while later.

Did the book have a publication (or copyright) date inside?

Would that be possible now PA has dropped its discount to 5%?

SeanDSchaffer

02-20-2006, 06:13 AM

I see
All I know isd though, the manager told me that waldens is a corporate chain bookstore, and that they need the permission from their headquarters first before they stack any books written from local authors, or such.

This is true, bloemmarc. However, this can be done by authors contacting the bookstore through the proper channels, not just the publisher doing so. For instance, B&N, I think it is, has a policy of sending two physical copies of a book to their corporate offices and a written request asking to stock that book, before they will decide whether or not to stock the book physically.

The reason for this, if I'm not mistaken, is to allow self-pubbed and vanity pubbed authors the ability to sell their books in several of the large chains.

But again, this is done through a written request sent to the proper channels. Most of the PA authors I've known over the years, have tried (and failed) to get this same thing done by simply going in to the stores themselves and asking.

But the point I'm making, is that the authors are responsible for getting their books into brick-and-mortar stores. PA itself does not do this for their authors.

Christine N.

02-20-2006, 06:16 AM

For the record, Walden's is owned by Borders... and it's already been proven that Borders is an easier nut to crack than B&N when it comes to getting books by local author's stocked there.

And every region is different. Some regional managers are a little more lenient, some have little to no tolerance.

astonwest

02-20-2006, 06:18 AM

Would that be possible now PA has dropped discount to 5%?I was running on the theory that the book was actually old enough (and ordered long enough ago) that it had been ordered via Ingram stock and with the larger version of the short discount.

A local Borders store still has 2-3 (signed) copies of my book on their shelf from a signing I did roughly 2-3 years ago. It probably doesn't help them out that I tell people not to pay that much for them when I can give them a copy for free.

Ilovepensandpaper

02-20-2006, 06:26 AM

Forgive me for any errors in my fallacy identification, feel free to PM me with corrections or suggestions. My intention is to explain to PA lurkers reading Carl's post lacks substance in the face of evidence and why.

Logical Fallacy: Red Herring

Who actually stated that PublishAmerica is nothing more than a blind commitement to will? It is not part of the "Great Debate", nor has it been part of the NEPAT thread. While some here at AW and other websites have likened PA to a cult, the references are to the seemingly blind defense of the organization in spite of unflattering evidence. Carl has chosen very emotive wording to sway the reader, but the "detractors" of PA never actually made this claim, but Carl wants you to think they did.

Logical Fallacy: Ad Populum (Appeal to Popularity)

The idea that a large group of individuals cannot be mistaken in their thinking has been disproven many times. This argument is legion when discussing religion and the existince of god. Numerical superiority is not equivelent to correctness. Carl also takes the liberty in presuming that all 17,000 authors support his argument. They most certainly do not, if the folks at AW are representative.

Logical Fallacy: Ad Hominem or Poisoning the Well

Carl chooses to attack PA detractors by presuming their prejudiced. This apparently alleviates his burden of responsibility in showing that PA's detractors are in fact incorrect. While a detractor might be biased in their opinion of PA, this does not eliminate the facts of the detractors claim. Carl hopes you'll forget about the publication and discussion of these facts by prejudicing the reader. The fact that some of the detractors are prejudiced is irrelvant in the debate.

How succinct. I am personally inclined to agree with this statement. However, it comes across as an "Appeal to Emotion", implying indirectly
that PublishAmerica equates with acceptance and validation. Herein
lies the heart of the dilemna and debate. If PublishAmerica indeed accepts
anything within the day's quota, are the feelings of acceptance and
validation, valid? Carl makes no attempt to elucidate his rationale here.

Logical Fallacy: "Poisoning the Well" or Ad Hominem
Appeal to Ridicule
Red Herring
Appeal to Spite

Carl uses emotionally manipulative and derisive words to make PA detractors look bad. This technique is used in absence of an actual logical argument. By ridiculing his opponents, Carl hopes to invalidate their claims. As opposed to actually presenting evidence to do the job. Carl also mentions opponents desire to "justify its business model" which is neither part of the ongoing debate, nor has been mentioned by any of the known PA opponents. Carl is trying to divert your attention away from the real debate, and that is identifying whether or not PA can rightfully claim to be a "traditional publisher, that is not in any way a POD or vanity press." Furthermore, we ask if PA's business model is based on getting authors to buy their own books.

This might be another "Red Herring", and another backhanded Ad Hominem for good measure. I'm not sure where "selective sovereignty" comes into the picture or who Carl is even referring to at this point.

This might also be the classic "Straw Man" fallacy, because PA detractors have in fact, made similar claims. Carl has turned that argument around by phrasing it using his own words, then attacking it. The difference here is that the detractors present evidence to support their claims, Carl does not.

Carl is an excellent emotive writer, but there is no meaning behind his words. Who are the unpublished pawns and who is using them? I presume that Carl is referring to the big publishing houses and people like Jim McDonald, but who knows? Who is illustrating self-inflicted poverty and what does it have to do specifically with the debate being held? This strikes me as "Appeal to Fear", implying the PublishAmerica is the only hope for the outright survival of would-be authors. This may be the greatest fallacy of them all. The entire purpose of NEPAT is to warn these same individuals that PA is a threat to their financial wellbeing through their misleading website and emails encouraging their authors to buy large quantities of their own books, at inflated prices, that cannot be reasonably sold to the trade market. Additionally, PublishAmerica encourages its authors to spend money on promotions, which are likely to fail due to the problems we've outlined many times in NEPAT and through other venues.

PublishAmerica's books that are priced outside the market. The books are poorly discounted, poorly edited, poorly designed and not available in most bookstores. When you weigh these factors together, you cannot justify authors spending their money on lavish promotions or buying batches of their own books for resale. This is the heart of our argument and Carl has not offered any refutation of these statements.

Regards,

Mike
Mreddin,
Thank goodness you took the time to explain, or pick apart Carl's message. I am not exactly the greatest in terms of vocabulary. I guess that is how some people are conned...Anyway, thanks for breaking down the message. The wording was a little over my head, and I got irritated with it.

Nexusman

02-20-2006, 06:35 AM

Mreddin,
Thank goodness you took the time to explain, or pick apart Carl's message. I am not exactly the greatest in terms of vocabulary. I guess that is how some people are conned...Anyway, thanks for breaking down the message. The wording was a little over my head, and I got irritated with it.

It's basically a snow job: stretch a thin bit of substance into more words than it needs to be by unnecessary elegance. (Check c-span or any episode of Seinfeld for common examples...)

Also if he thinks he's including ME in his statement about unpublished authors, he is sadly mistaken. :rant:

-Nick

SeanDSchaffer

02-20-2006, 07:02 AM

It might help some people who are about to sign, not to sign. And it might help some people who are already signed with PA, to realize what their publisher is doing to them. The more people there are who realize that they've been shafted, the more chances there are of people bringing the truth out about this company and their business practices.

I know it seems a bit insulting, Ilovepensandpaper....and possibly a tad ridiculous....but I think it's something well worth the effort in the long run. As a PA'er myself, I don't want others to go through what I'm going through now, for example. I know you don't, because of what you've already done to hinder their progress. A lot of other PA'ers also want to make sure as few people as possible go through what they've gone through, as well. So the debate definitely has the potential of being a compliment to the goal of a great many writers to be published and make successful careers out of their writing, by keeping them away from PA's clutches, and possibly other like scams.

I hope this helps you out, and although it seems pointless, try to remember that scams like PA don't last forever. I don't know when they'll go down, but they will go down. There are just too many good people in the world who want to see others succeed, for a company like PA to continue with their bad business practices.