The New Never-Ending PublishAmerica Thread (NEPAT)

Even when I was posting regularly on the PAMB there were some common themes I just couldn't wrap my mind around and fully understand. One of them is the frequent claim that "All PA books are great." This kind of statement simply boggles the mind, and speaks volumes about the poster; yet, in most cases, this claim is left unchallenged.

I have doubts that the people who make this claim even believe it themselves, but that's beside the point. What is important (I think) is the culture of association that this represents. The perceived quality of one book has an impact on the other books, and the success and/or legitimacy of the publisher is critically important to the future hopes of the individual authors. This "team" mentality may represent more the desire to belong, as opposed to a desire to succeed in literary endeavors.

For the PA lurkers: regardless of what you would like to believe, you are on your own. As a writer, the only thing that matters is the quality of your work; having other (PA) writers review your work and give you accolades is more than just a waste of time and effort, it is another step down the road of self-deception. If you are really interested in becoming a successful author, remember this: there are no short-cuts. None that work, anyway.

I've wondered whether, perhaps, some PA authors read other PA books in a different way to how they'd read a book they'd bought from a shop, just as you read your own work differently. Getting perspective on your own writing involves getting distance from it, and trying to read it from your reader mind rather than your writer mind. I think some PA authors read PA books with their writer's mind. They can't look at it objectively because they're emotionally too close, just as they are with their own work. And if they're still learning to find errors in their writing, they may not spot similar errors in the work of others.

PA has told them these books are publishable, and as soon as they stop believing that, they have to accept that being printed by PA doesn't mean their own work was of a high standard. That must be a tough thing to confront, and some of them might not be ready to do that.

Those who have realised PA publishes the slush pile aren't likely to say so on the relentlessly positive PA message board. Even if they don't yet realise their post will be deleted and they themselves banned, they must have picked up that they would be censured by other PA authors who seem threatened by any criticism of PA.

PA tells everyone their work is publishable. That's a cruel thing to do.

Tilly said:

...PA tells everyone their work is publishable. That's a cruel thing to do.

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Confusing matters, some of it IS very fine work. Maybe niche, maybe with a primarily local or regional audience, and maybe in some other fashion not suited to a commercial publisher, but still of high quality. All the same to PA. Wonderful. Awful. Here's a special deal on 50 copies of your own book. All the same.

:-/

--Ken

p.s. I am still (it has been most of a year now) working with the author of a superb memoir that PA nearly got its clutches on and would have ruined. In one way or another, it will reach print. Commercial publisher if possible, else a legitimate POD. In either event, y'all are going to want to read it when it appears. Shortly, I will pitch it again to an agent who has been very reluctant to take it on, and I have nearly finished some edits and format fixups to the manuscript. Either the agent recognizes that it is a great book with an audience (I have to omit details here, but I have done my homework, and have in hand the rave endorsement of a nationally prominent writer/scholar), or we go to Plan B. Or Plan C. I have volunteered countless hours because it is that good--and culturally and historically valuable in the bargain. But just being good--even superb--is not enough to sell it to agent or publisher. They have to be persuaded that it is right for them AND that it will be profitable (high bar for an agent, who lives on a percentage of advances and royalties).

I went looking for the excerpt xhouseboy mentioned and ended up reading an excerpt from an entirely different PA author which wasn't half bad. I'm not sure the work is commercially publishable at the moment, but the writer definitely has potential. I hope PA doesn't permanently prevent him form realizing it.

rekirts said:

I went looking for the excerpt xhouseboy mentioned and ended up reading an excerpt from an entirely different PA author which wasn't half bad. I'm not sure the work is commercially publishable at the moment, but the writer definately has potential. I hope PA doesn't permanently prevent him form realizing it.

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And that's exactly what's rotten throughout with PA, as Ken mentioned in a previous post. The good and the bad get lumped together, and all for the sake of hoping to lighten as many pockets as possible. A crook's a crook. And a target's a target. But on the up-side, out of 17,000 or so authors and growing, what's the odds that one day they select the wrong mark? Some no-nonsense kickback, or your garden variety sociopath to whom the recognised rules don't matter. Cue the Dr Chilton - Hannibal Lecter scenario, where Willem is forced to seek sanctuary in some obsolete corner of the planet.

xhouseboy said:

And that's exactly what's rotten throughout with PA, as Ken mentioned in a previous post. The good and the bad get lumped together, and all for the sake of hoping to lighten as many pockets as possible. A crook's a crook. And a target's a target. But on the up-side, out of 17,000 or so authors and growing, what's the odds that one day they select the wrong mark? Some no-nonsense kickback, or your garden variety sociopath to whom the recognised rules don't matter. Cue the Dr Chilton - Hannibal Lecter scenario, where Willem is forced to seek sanctuary in some obsolete corner of the planet.

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This is a compelling thought...

There are entire cities with fewer than 17,000 residents. Get one or two of them mad at you and you can get some real trouble brewing.

Sooner or later this is bound to happen.

Last week, here in Memphis, a noted medical doctor announced a book signing at his clinic. He was "published" twice...first with Authors House, and secondly with "traditional publisher" PA. I winced when I read the story. He was asked how many copies his book had sold and he danced around the answer.

He's got the bucks to strike if he desires. Xhouseboy is correct. The wrong mark is going to get zapped and pissed, and the fit will hit the shan.

What I want to see is less of the websites, authors boards and such and more walking up to the gates of Fredrick and a personal beat down of certain PA principals. Nothing too violent, just enough to cause them to rethink what they are doing and get into Amway or some other such business.

That's Mcguirk stadium at Umass.

Capacity: 17,000.

These posts may not last, but these authors are passing on what they know to the newbies. I suspect a lot more of that may go on than we see on the PA boards.

Jennifer Robins said:

The very first thing to do, if you intend to write full time to make aliving at it, is to get a literary agent who can sell your work to big houses that will promote and market your book. Even then, there is no telling how good you will do, so don't be too quick to give up your day time job.

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Glenn Ross Johnson said:

Shawn, I agree with Jenny and Pierrette and the cautionary post. Write for the enjoyment of writing. It is fine to dream - - - dreaming helps us establish goals for ourselves, but wait until you receive your first royality check before you leap into full-time writing - - - especially if you presently have a job. A few reality check comments follow. Major publishing companies reject about 97 percent of all inquiries. Of the 3 percent they ask for samples, chapters, or in some cases the manuscript, they will reject 90 percent or more of those after reading the samples. Of every 10 they decide to publish, they will either lose money or break even on costs surrounding the publication of 6 or 7. They make all of their profits on those 2 or 3 books that make it big time. Consider this also: Publish America is a great service to "would be" authors who have been rejected by major publishing companies. Publish America under "Facts and Figures" indicates that it serves 17,000 authors. Publish America recently announced, after six years of existence, it recently topped the $1 million in royalties to authors during that period of time - - - $1,000,000 divided by 17,000 authors = about $59 per author's book in royalties. The overwhelming number of us in here are not looking for great royalty returns - - - we just enjoy writing and sharing our work with family, children, grandchildren, and friends. If you continue to write with the above in mind, you will sleep better at night - - - and who knows - - - you may be the next author to break into the New York Times Top Ten. However, it is best to dream with the reality check above in mind. Best wishes Shawn, and thanks for your comments on my website.

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What I'd disagree with is the idea that most authors there are not looking for substantial sales and royalties, i.e. readers. Most of the authors on the forum seem to genuinely believe that PA is a traditional publisher, by which they think it's a commercial publisher. And they still believe it because the royalty checks haven't been sent yet.

That's why they believe they might make a living from their PA books, and why they think they might have sold large numbers of books on an online bookshop.

PA Question

I search for a publisher summer of 2005. I seem to remember that when I went over the ad on the PA web site that they said they printed the first 2000 books for sale and after that it was a POD. Which made since to me. Did anybody else read that. Because that is one of the reasons I went with PA was that, and the fact I read on the testimonies site about an author who went to the ck out stand at a super market and there was her book for sale. Now does that not tell you they put them in the stores if you are a author looking for a publisher for your book. Here is what I read on the literture they sent when I signed the contract.
So, what's PublishAmerica Doing?
We announce your book to the industry, listing it with Bowker's Books-In-Print and with wolesalers like Baker & Taylor, Brodart Co., and Ingram, and we make it available through the PublishAmerica website and online bookstores such as Amazon.com, Borders.com, BN.com, Chapters.com, and (this is the catch) 15,000 bricks and martar stores. Your book will be available through all of these channels within six weeks from the time you receive your complimentary author copies.
I still have this and I'm sure everyone that signed up with PA has the same promise. I intend to do my share but I'm also expect PA to hold up their part. If they don't do what they have put in writing isn't that grounds to be able to pull out of the contract? Just wondering.
Since I couldn't find anything to back up what I think I read about the 2000 books being printing up front, I was wondering if anybody else read that too since there is so many PA authors here that were with them then and before summer 2005.
Another question I have is I am working on my third book and looking into other publishers. Now I've been seeing alot on LuLu and Capri. I would like anybody's input on these two publishers so I don't make the same mistake.
Also if there is anyone that knows of other publishers please inform me. I have many websites of Publishers, but I want to talk to authors that have been pulished with them and see how things go with them. I hope that is not asking too much, but I just feel like I have been burned like so many other and wanting my third book published and being cautious. Thanks, Glenda Wilson, author of Romance Novels @ www.glendawilsonnovels.com

Perhaps one day they'll give the next Unabomber's manifesto "the chance it deserves." Sooner or later, they will.

Meanwhile, they can appear to be growing more selective. Say they have the capacity to put out forty books a day. They therefore accept forty books a day. If they get 80 submissions that day, they reject everything that comes in after noon. 50% rejection rate! Say they get 120 submissions. They reject everything that comes in after 10:00 a.m. Instant 66% rejection rate. Have they become more selective? Not a bit.

Meanwhile, some percentage of the books they get must be ones that would have genuine wide popular appeal, had they been edited, had they been promoted, had they been distributed. Not every book they get is one that's been rejected by everyone from Ace to Zondervan, that's been going from slush pile to slush pile for the last thirty years. Some of them will be from first-timers who don't know any better.

xhouseboy said:

As an example (from memory), at a crime scene one character told the other to take certain evidence to the Coroner to get 'somebodies' opinion on it, or something like that. Next thing we know (within the same paragraph - well, there weren't really any paragraphs worth mentioning), the 'gopher' is listening to the Coroner's take on it. It was like - ' "go talk to the Coroner." The Coroner said what are you doing here....'

And by the way, how come you get quotations and I don't? More to the point, who the hell am I? I seem to have just sprung from nowhere. You're the Coroner, mate. Just tell me what I need to know, and quickly. No telling when I'm about to get whipped out of here . I've got some unfinished business in a previous scene that I'll probably be popping back up in soon.

More selective? Sleepwalking further into denial, more like.

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Xhouseboy, this is the funniest thing I have ever read!
Thanks for the laugh...
I can't stop laughing...
Saundra

I've never come across any reference to PA having a policy of printing 2000 books offset as an initial print run. The vast majority of PA books sell in double or low triple figures, so I doubt this is the case.
Books being available in bookstores merely means someone can go into a store and order your book. It doesn't mean being shelved in bookstores.
I strongly recommend you read these threads:
http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26537
http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10211
http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20586

Glenda said:

Another question I have is I am working on my third book and looking into other publishers. Now I've been seeing alot on LuLu and Capri. I would like anybody's input on these two publishers so I don't make the same mistake.

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I'm going to fold this into the NEPAT in just a bit, but before I do ...

Why are you even considering self-publishing? Go to a bookstore. See those books on the shelves? Find books similar to yours. Look on the copyright page to see who published them. Get those publishers' guidelines and follow the guidelines to the letter.

Lulu is a printer. The advantages of them over PA are a) lower price, and b) there isn't any 7-year contract.

I suggest you talk with a lawyer. If you have a case against PA, I suggest you look into arbitration.

Glenda:


I don't remember reading anything about printing 2,000 copies and then becoming a POD. Print-On-Demand is a technology used to print all PA books.

As far as making the PA book available in brick and mortar stores, read carefully, and see if it doesn't say "through" brick and mortar stores, which means you can normally order through the store for home delivery, and of course PA does make the book available through on-line stores.

As far as the post about finding the book in a newsstand. I remember the post, and I think that "finding" was probably arranged by the author's family. The bookstand was near a shopping district frequented by the author and I believe her daughters arranged the "finding" with the bookstand owner. I can't substantiate that, but I believe that's what happened.

PA does an excellent job of subterfuge and misdirection, and there are a number of PA authors at royalty time that suddenly realize PA got the goldmine and they got the shaft.

Arkie

Question:


How many books of yours has PA sold?


I checked out your website. It's very pink.

From the PAMB.... "Should I be concerned?"

I signed my contract last July. My manuscript (143,000 plus word count) and questionnaire were emailed on August 20, 2005. I selected the long edit by PA.

My contract ends in July, 2006.

I haven’t heard a word from PA about when my book will start into the edit process.

I've noticed that some of the books by other authors required 2 and a half months for cover design and two months there after, their book was released for printing. That's four and a half months, not counting editing and the additional work required by the author after editing.

I have five months before my contract ends.

Do I have any reason to worry, or is this about how things are supposed to go? I don't want to come up on July and then have PA discover that my book hasn't been edited yet and do a two hour edit and a quickie cover design just to fulfill their part of the bargain.

Just curious.

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Best thing that could ever happen to him is if he keeps his mouth shut and lets the contract run out. 143,000 words ?!? How much do you think that 'lil gem will sell for? $35 ?

Our NBA arena in Memphis seats around 17,000. Average ticket is around $80. Add parking and a beer and burger, you get close to a hundred bucks.

The average PA authors has earned $59, according to their math ($1,000,000 paid in royalties to 17,000 "happy" authors.

If we have "PA at the Grizzlies Night" where all the PA authors bring their royalties to the game for tickets, it will be a sparse crowd.

Lurkers, pay attention. The AVERAGE author at PA earns $59 in royalties.

How can this be defended?

Here's the deal....I would quietly go away if the PA principals would simply add something like this to their website: "We operate a little differently than most small publishers. While we never charge an author to publish their books, we are best suited for the author who wants to see their first novel or memoir published for their friends, family, and small base of readers. Assuming a broader interest in your book, you retain the rights to your work and can take it to a more traditional publisher as you wish. We are a stepping stone for your potential publishing future."

BTW, where is Jamie Farr?

Originally Posted by Memphis Ed
This from PAMB. Anyone here know how many of the 17,000 are writing fulltime with PA?

NancyMehl said:

Hmmmm. None?

(Do I win a prize for the correct answer????)

Nancy

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I write full time and have made my living by doing so for quite some time.

AmandaPA said:

I write full time and have made my living by doing so for quite some time.

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From your PA books? I don't think so.

AmandaPA said:

I write full time and have made my living by doing so for quite some time.

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Amanda,

We were talking about authors who were making their living through their PA book(s). I think you misunderstood.

You stated this in an earlier post: "BTW, my first royalty check was for $3.00 even though I know that I sold around 40 books."

Unless you the most frugal person in the world, you aren't working full time through PA.

It's neat that you are able to earn a living by writing through other avenues. That's something I'm striving for.

Nancy

You guys saved another one......

Hello all,
I had just finished a short story that I had been working on for the last few years. After some of my freinds had read it, they asked me if I was going to try to get it published, as they have all said that it was quite good. I started checking around on line to look into trying to see how much it would cost me to get put into book form by a P.O.D company. That's when I ran across that one company that I see that you all love and respect, Publish America. I read their web site and thought that it was to good to be true! My story in a book store! And I could actually get paid for it?
I submited my text and hoped that it was good enough for 'their high standards' as they liked to put it. But then, I started thinking that if it's sounds to good to be true, then it probelly is to good to be true. So I did a yahoo search and that's when I found out about their shady ways and tactics. It also lead me to here, and I just want to say thank you for saving someone else from those hacks over there at PA. I will keep working on my short story and then try to find a agent that will like it enough to work with me to get it published by company that really is a publishing company.
If it never sees the light of day in a book store, I could live with that. But I couldn't live with the fact that it had been butchard and ruined by that awful company. I love my work to much for that, and I feel sorry for all those poor souls that have been used by PA to make a quick buck off of their dreams.

Yours Truly,
JimmyD1318


P.S.
Does anyone know if PA has taken anybody's work once they refused to sigh with them and still published it? Because if they do I will pursue legal action against them.

Welcome Jimmy.

There's a short story forum on this board as well that might be useful to you:

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=15

I've never heard of PA publishing a manuscript that the author didn't sign a contract for. I don't think they'd do that because they'd have no author to sell it to, and that's where they get the bulk of their sales from.

LOL

From my books with PA?? Oh, that's a good one.

AmandaPA said:

From my books with PA?? Oh, that's a good one.

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I love a good sense of humor....thanks, Amanda

Glenda said:

...we make it available through [...] 15,000 bricks and martar stores. Your book will be available through all of these channels within six weeks from the time you receive your complimentary author copies.

If they don't do what they have put in writing isn't that grounds to be able to pull out of the contract?http://www.glendawilsonnovels.com

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Well, I'm no lawyer, but I think PA's contracts have a clause saying "this contract is the entire agreement", which basically means even if they promise you -- even in writing -- a print run and promotion on the order of Harry Potter, NYT Bestseller listing and a cardboard dump in the front of every Borders, if it's not in the contract itself, they don't have to do it. And they probably won't.

They are pretty good at making the contract SOUND like they'll do everything, but in fact it says they MIGHT. Guess which side of "might" they come down on.