He said...she said

Status
Not open for further replies.

popmuze

Last of a Dying Breed
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 31, 2005
Messages
2,613
Reaction score
183
Location
Nowhere, man
Recently an editor pointed out two flaws in my writing styles: an overuse of adverbs and the reliance on too many dialogue tags other than "he said, she said."

Now, when reading some of my favorite authors, I am amazed at how few adverbs they use and how often they stick to the plain "he said, she said," rather than escaping to "intoned" "blurted" "raged" "inquired" "elaborated" "explained" etc.

My question is, with a manuscript ready to circulate, should I do yet another rewrite (at least of the first 100 pages) expunging adverbs and correcting excessive tags?

Or is my problem not the dead giveaway of amateurishness I've been led to believe it is.
 
Last edited:

reph

Fig of authority
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
5,160
Reaction score
971
Location
On a fig tree, presumably
popmuze said:
My question is, with a manuscript ready to circulate, should I do yet another rewrite (at least of the first 100 pages) expunging adverbs and correcting excessive tags?
Yes. The second 100 pages, too, and the third.

Or is my problem not the dead giveaway of amateurishness I've been led to believe it is.
It shows you're using a style once common that's gone out of fashion. Readers' expectations have changed.
 

loquax

I verb nouns adverbly
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 5, 2005
Messages
1,064
Reaction score
165
Overuse of dialogue tags is a normal problem. The general consensus is that the dialogue itself should protray the emotions, without the need to reinforce them with a tag. Therefore the majority of tags are either redundant, or needed to enhance weak dialogue, in which case the dialogue should be strengthened and the tag removed.

Redundancies are less of a newbie sign than weak dialogue, and therefore a lot easier to edit. If your dialogue is weak, then a big rewrite is needed.
 

Jamesaritchie

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Messages
27,863
Reaction score
2,313
popmuze said:
Recently an editor pointed out two flaws in my writing styles: an overuse of adverbs and the reliance on too many dialogue tags other than "he said, she said."

Now, when reading some of my favorite authors, I am amazed at how few adverbs they use and how often they stick to the plain "he said, she said," rather than escaping to "intoned" "blurted" "raged" "inquired" "elaborated" "explained" etc.

My question is, with a manuscript ready to circulate, should I do yet another rewrite (at least of the first 100 pages) expunging adverbs and correcting excessive tags?

Or is my problem not the dead giveaway of amateurishness I've been led to believe it is.

Yes, but there's no point in stopping at 100 pages. It's all or nothing. And while you're at it, take a look at any stray adjectives you have taking up space here and there. Adjectives tell, rather than show, and they get old real fast.
 

popmuze

Last of a Dying Breed
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 31, 2005
Messages
2,613
Reaction score
183
Location
Nowhere, man
In my recent reading, what I notice is that instead of a tag like "I see," he leered" or "I see, he said leeringly" the author might add a sentence or so to describe the character, in the manner of:

"I see," he said with a leer. Although, due to the peculiar set of his mouth, even his most innocent remarks could seem heavy with double or triple meanings, most often smarmy, if not pornographic. When you talked to Jack you leaned away from him, in a runner's crouch, with one foot out the door, lest you be sucked into the unfortunate worldview that was etched onto his face.
 
Last edited:

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
43,746
Reaction score
8,654
Location
Los Angeles
Website
www.amazon.com
Yup, take those out. Once in a while adverbs or tags like "he elaborated" is OKAY. JK Rowling uses a lot of adverbs, too, but she writes for children and YA so I'm willing to forgive her. ;)
 

Jamesaritchie

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Messages
27,863
Reaction score
2,313
popmuze said:
In my recent reading, what I notice is that instead of a tag like "I see," he leered" or "I see, he said leeringly" the author might add a sentence or so to describe the character, in the manner of:

"I see," he said with a leer. Although, due to the peculiar set of his mouth, even his most innocent remarks could seem heavy with double or triple meanings, most often smarmy, if not pornographic. When you talked to Jack you learned away from him, in a runner's crouch, with one foot out the door, lest you be sucked into the unfortunate worldview that was etched onto his face.

That's even worse. Just adds to the problem. I'd ditch such a writer instantly.
 

PattiTheWicked

Unleashing Hell.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 15, 2005
Messages
3,999
Reaction score
1,251
Website
www.pattiwigington.com
I volunteer twice a week in the library at my kids' school, and the other day I was shelving Nancy Drew books -- which are still quite popular with third and fourth grade girls -- and just for fun, I opened up a chapter and started counting dialogue tags. On the first two pages of the chapter, I encountered:

Bess announced
Nancy declared
George quipped
Bess replied
George grinned
Nancy sighed
Bess remarked
Nancy declared (yes, another declared)
George wondered
Ned called

and finally, at the bottom of the second page

Nancy said.
 

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
43,746
Reaction score
8,654
Location
Los Angeles
Website
www.amazon.com
Jamesaritchie said:
That's even worse. Just adds to the problem. I'd ditch such a writer instantly.

Me too. That's overdone and it stops the flow of the dialogue and plot dead cold.
 

Jamesaritchie

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Messages
27,863
Reaction score
2,313
PattiTheWicked said:
I volunteer twice a week in the library at my kids' school, and the other day I was shelving Nancy Drew books -- which are still quite popular with third and fourth grade girls -- and just for fun, I opened up a chapter and started counting dialogue tags. On the first two pages of the chapter, I encountered:

Bess announced
Nancy declared
George quipped
Bess replied
George grinned
Nancy sighed
Bess remarked
Nancy declared (yes, another declared)
George wondered
Ned called

and finally, at the bottom of the second page

Nancy said.



For whatever reason, probably because it's thought that younger readers need more explanation, you can get away with this in book that are for children, and right up through the early teens. There's probably some truth in it. But most adult readers, and editors, aren't very patient with such writing.
 

Cathy C

Ooo! Shiny new cover!
Kind Benefactor
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 5, 2005
Messages
9,907
Reaction score
1,835
Location
Hiding in my writing cave
Website
www.cathyclamp.com
I try very hard not to have ANY dialogue tags in the book, but sometimes, it's unavoidable. Having more than two people in the conversation sort of demands a brief nod to tags, but two people seldom requires it. Action speaks much louder than words. For example, here's a brief passage from my new WIP. There's not a single dialogue tag in it, but the reader still knows exactly who is saying what:


****************

A slender blonde woman about a decade older than me looked up from a computer screen as I approached. I nodded in greeting. "Good evening, I’m Roxanne McCoy. I’m here to see Ms. Roche for an interview."

She held out a tiny, well-manicured hand that was covered in sparkling rings. I shook it, but was sorry I did. She had one of those flimsy, jellyfish grips and a damp palm that made me want to wipe off my hand. She looked a bit startled at my firm grasp that loosened abruptly after the initial ‘ick’ factor.

"I’m Mrs. Roche. Is it Miss or Mrs. McCoy?"

I raised my eyebrows, but kept my voice mild and sweet. "Does my marital status matter?" It had better not, since it was against the law to ask. Thank heavens for labor laws, and a little brother capable of interpreting them.

Her small frown spoke volumes. "I suppose not. But here at Royal Crest Hotels, we believe in a traditional approach toward our staff—and our guests. We merely want to address our people in an appropriate manner."

I stifled a shudder that was probably identical to one my great-great-grandmother had felt when she’d become an indentured servant to earn passage to this country. Traditional. Appropriate. Our People. All sorts of scary words in two tiny little sentences. My feet kept trying to turn back toward the door, but my brain wouldn’t let them. I needed this job if I wanted to keep my car and eat.

I like my car. I like food.

My feet remained pointed toward Mrs. Limp-wrist, and I smiled in what I hoped was a traditional, appropriate manner. "Of course. How very . . . nice. Perhaps you could simply call me Roxanne. After all, it is tradition to call a housekeeper by her first name." It wasn’t perfect, but my continuing lack of male companionship was none of her business.

Her face actually brightened at that statement, which made my stomach churn. "What a lovely idea, Roxanne." She came out from behind the counter, all smiles and bouncy steps. Eww. "Well, shall we start the interview? I thought we’d start by looking over some of the rooms, so you have some idea of the layout." She walked away, leaving me to follow behind her a few steps until I could catch up.

***************

In our first book, before we discovered the Chicago Manual of Style, we had lots of dialogue tags. But after one kind editor (in his rejection) offered to look at it again if we could remove them, we discovered how much better the story was without them.

Take the time to remove them. It'll be worth it! :)
 
Last edited:

Jamesaritchie

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Messages
27,863
Reaction score
2,313
Tags

I agree completely with Cathy. Very often, no tag at all is needed, and when this is the case, leave them out.
 

ChunkyC

It's hard being green
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
12,297
Reaction score
2,135
Location
trapped between my ears
As I write, I try to keep in mind the function of a dialogue tag. It is there for one reason only: to identify who is speaking. As such, it is much more of an artifice than the rest of your narration and should only be used when the identity of the speaker might be unclear. As in Cathy's example (thanks for sharing a sample of your work, by the way), you can often do without tags altogether.
 

BlackCrowesChick

Uptown Girl
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 12, 2005
Messages
632
Reaction score
137
Location
In the backseat of a Greyhound bus
Some entire books are written without any dialogue tags. One I read that was like that was Cry the Beloved Country by Alan Patton. All the dialogue was dashed off. I don't even think he used quotation marks, if I remember correctly.

I use them, but I stick with he said/she said.
 

Elwyn

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 16, 2005
Messages
200
Reaction score
2
Location
Appalachia
Thanks for this question

So, it's a crap shoot - like a lot of other "technical" stuff?

Note: Rowling uses plenty of dialog tags in lieu of "said."

Now it seems I have to rely on the editor's preference when submitting a manuscript. Hopefully, since mine is the YA audience, I can get away with it (using words other than said).

So how would you write a dialog line expressing that the character "hissed." This is a test - here is a sample line to start with:

"We'll cut their throats before they awake," Kang hissed.

Maybe, "we'll cut their throats before they awake," Kang said with clenched teeth?

TIA
 

Cathy C

Ooo! Shiny new cover!
Kind Benefactor
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 5, 2005
Messages
9,907
Reaction score
1,835
Location
Hiding in my writing cave
Website
www.cathyclamp.com
Elwyn said:
Note: Rowling uses plenty of dialog tags in lieu of "said."

Now it seems I have to rely on the editor's preference when submitting a manuscript. Hopefully, since mine is the YA audience, I can get away with it (using words other than said).

Well, yes and no. You can never go wrong with too FEW dialogue tags. It's not until you start to put too many that you're nudging up against preferences between editors. YA is more forgiving on tags, because kids aren't as quick of readers, so they need to be reminded more often of who is in the room.


Elwyn said:
"We'll cut their throats before they awake," Kang hissed.

Maybe, "we'll cut their throats before they awake," Kang said with clenched teeth?


Frankly, I wouldn't do either one. I would do one of the following:

"We'll cut their throats before they wake." Kang's eyes glowed with anticipation as he hissed the words.

Kang's clenched teeth made his words come out in a hiss. "We'll cut their throats before they wake."
 
Last edited:

blacbird

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 21, 2005
Messages
36,987
Reaction score
6,159
Location
The right earlobe of North America
Not exactly addressed here, but alluded to a couple of times, is the issue of dialog attribution altogether. My rule is, if it's instantly clear from the line of dialog itself who is speaking, leave the attribution out. In my experience, that can eliminate a lot of the repetition of "he said; she said", and likewise reduce the feel that you need some word other than "said" for attribution. But the key point is that the identity of the speaking character be really obvious from the sequence of dialog alone. You don't want to confuse the reader, either.

Nor do you want to be erroneous in your attributions, as at least one famous mystery writer is at a couple of places in a recent novel (Tony Hillerman).

caw.
 

Mike Coombes

Guru
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 6, 2005
Messages
774
Reaction score
58
Location
UK
Website
writers.ktf-design.com
popmuze said:
My question is, with a manuscript ready to circulate, should I do yet another rewrite (at least of the first 100 pages) expunging adverbs and correcting excessive tags?

Not the first 100 pages. The whole lot, it saves embarrassing yourself.
 

Jamesaritchie

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Messages
27,863
Reaction score
2,313
Elwyn said:
So, it's a crap shoot - like a lot of other "technical" stuff?

Note: Rowling uses plenty of dialog tags in lieu of "said."

Now it seems I have to rely on the editor's preference when submitting a manuscript. Hopefully, since mine is the YA audience, I can get away with it (using words other than said).

So how would you write a dialog line expressing that the character "hissed." This is a test - here is a sample line to start with:

"We'll cut their throats before they awake," Kang hissed.

Maybe, "we'll cut their throats before they awake," Kang said with clenched teeth?

TIA

Rowling writes primarily for kids, and for kids such dialogue tags work well. Asa for the two examples, both read pretty awful tomy ear. In the first, you can't hiss without a sibilant being present. It just isn't possible. The second is as cliched as you can get.

Even for most YA, stick to he said and she said.
 

Elwyn

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 16, 2005
Messages
200
Reaction score
2
Location
Appalachia
Sibilant

sib·i·lant ([font=verdana, sans-serif] P [/font]) Pronunciation Key (s
ibreve.gif
b
prime.gif
schwa.gif
-l
schwa.gif
nt)
adj. Of, characterized by, or producing a hissing sound like that of (s) or (sh): the sibilant consonants; a sibilant bird call.
Please expound.
 

popmuze

Last of a Dying Breed
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 31, 2005
Messages
2,613
Reaction score
183
Location
Nowhere, man
This thread kind of answers an old mystery for me. Since I grew up writing YA novels that may be why I was never cured of the colorful tag habit. Now, it's a very tough addiction to break. Every one of those tags comes out with the ease of an impacted tooth.

As far as adverbs, in my prime, I virtually defined myself by how many adverbs I could throw into a paragraph, as if to defy the gods of fine writing.

I don't think I can go cold turkey just yet, but with the help of this group, I may finally and irrevocably be on my way to shedding those awful excess pounds of adverbiage.

He said proudly, if reluctantly.
 
Last edited:

loquax

I verb nouns adverbly
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 5, 2005
Messages
1,064
Reaction score
165
Elwyn said:
sib·i·lant ([font=verdana, sans-serif] P [/font]) Pronunciation Key (s
ibreve.gif
b
prime.gif
schwa.gif
-l
schwa.gif
nt)
adj. Of, characterized by, or producing a hissing sound like that of (s) or (sh): the sibilant consonants; a sibilant bird call.
Please expound.
I suppose "throats" had a sibilant. But that's really the only thing he could have hissed. Which doesnt sound quite right.
 

Sharon Mock

Wing nut
VPX
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 5, 2005
Messages
455
Reaction score
82
Location
Interstitial
Website
kirizal.livejournal.com
I disagree, but only mildly, with reserving hiss for dialog with a certain number of s's.

As far as I know, there's no other good synonym for stage-whisper. And stage-whisper is cumbersome, and rarely works in context.

That said, I avoid using hiss because I know it's a frequent pet peeve, even though I don't agree with it.

"We'll cut their throats before they awake." Kang kept his voice as low as he could, though the effort hurt his throat.
 

loquax

I verb nouns adverbly
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 5, 2005
Messages
1,064
Reaction score
165
How about rasped?

Wait, what am I doing? Advocating said-bookisms? I've become everything I've ever hated!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.