Finish it before trying to submit?

Shadow_Ferret · Jan 12, 2006

I have a silly question. I'm in the middle of my WIP and have a good idea of where it's heading, how it'll be resolved and such.

Is it ever a good idea to send out sample chapters and a synopsis of an unfinished work? (Never having submitted a novel, I'm not quite sure of the process. Does one submit a query letter first, then sample chapters when they express the interest... or does one just send the chapters? I guess I should research that more.) And would you tell them that it is unfinished?

I thought I've heard somewhere in the distant past that this has been done, motivating the author to finish the novel when it was accepted.

Thanks.

JerseyGirl1962 · Jan 12, 2006

Shadow_Ferret said:
I have a silly question. I'm in the middle of my WIP and have a good idea of where it's heading, how it'll be resolved and such.

Is it ever a good idea to send out sample chapters and a synopsis of an unfinished work? (Never having submitted a novel, I'm not quite sure of the process. Does one submit a query letter first, then sample chapters when they express the interest... or does one just send the chapters? I guess I should research that more.) And would you tell them that it is unfinished?

I thought I've heard somewhere in the distant past that this has been done, motivating the author to finish the novel when it was accepted.

Thanks.

Shadow,

From all I've read on this and other writing boards, you NEVER send out an unfinished work. Agents and publishers want a completed work.

~Nancy

MacAllister · Jan 12, 2006

The exception to the above being when you've published a dozen or so books, and know completely and without a doubt that you can turn it in, on time, in publishable condition.

Finish it first, Ferret.

Button · Jan 12, 2006

MacAllister said:
The exception to the above being when you've published a dozen or so books, and know completely and without a doubt that you can turn it in, on time, in publishable condition.

Finish it first, Ferret.

Agreed!

How do you know you will finish it? Maybe you'll need to rewrite it (most likely) or spend time editing. You may need to have someone else look it over too.

It's good you are willing to take the next step, but don't jump the gun.

Cathy C · Jan 12, 2006

IMO, it depends on one thing: Can you complete the book to the same standard as the queried chapter in no more than three weeks from a response from the agent/editor? That's the key. Now, I can't say "No, don't ever do it!" because I did just what you suggest here. I queried the first 30 pages (which was the TOTAL amount that I'd written on the book). The editor LOVED the pages and needed the full manuscript in less than a month to fill a slot in their spring line that someone else defaulted on.

I did it, but it wasn't a pretty sight...

If you can type fast and put out a book in final draft form from the get-go, then go for it. But understand that your success depends on your ability to do it. Most people require more than 2-3 drafts of a book to have it in publishable form. Maybe you're different. Just be honest with yourself. If what you submit with a query took you two years to get "just right", then you're probably not going to be ABLE to give the agent/editor the same quality in 3 weeks. That's your deadline before the agent/editor forgets you exist and moves on to the next submission that interested them.

Don't presume that you can hold that same interest 15 months later. You won't.

But if you can do it, cool. Have fun. Some people (like me) work best under pressure of deadline. But most don't. Only you know for sure.

Jamesaritchie · Jan 12, 2006

Submitting

Shadow_Ferret said:
I have a silly question. I'm in the middle of my WIP and have a good idea of where it's heading, how it'll be resolved and such.

Is it ever a good idea to send out sample chapters and a synopsis of an unfinished work? (Never having submitted a novel, I'm not quite sure of the process. Does one submit a query letter first, then sample chapters when they express the interest... or does one just send the chapters? I guess I should research that more.) And would you tell them that it is unfinished?

I thought I've heard somewhere in the distant past that this has been done, motivating the author to finish the novel when it was accepted.

Thanks.

I did the same thing Cathy did, and, amn, was it a huge mistake. The agent called back as soon as she saw the lone sample chapter and synopsis, and told me she had to have the completed novel by the first of the next month. I finished the novel, and it sold, but that was the hardest twenty-one days I've ever spent.

There's really no reason at all to submit something before it's finished and polished to perfection. Even the chapters you've already written may need to be changed drastically once you have the ending written.

My advice is to follow the stanrd advice and do not submit anything until the novel is finished. It's taking a real chance, and you may well blow everything by submitting too soon.

maestrowork · Jan 12, 2006

Ditto everyone said. I finished my novel before I sent the ms. out, but it's true -- a few agents asked for a full after only a week or two of reading my sample chapters, and if I hadn't finished the darn thing, I don't think I could ever have pulled it off.

Finish it first. Better yet, polish it first. Then send it out to your heart's content.

Cathy C · Jan 12, 2006

Jamesaritchie said:
There's really no reason at all to submit something before it's finished and polished to perfection.

Greed, pride, overconfidence in ones abilities...

I can't say I'm sorry I did it. I just know I wouldn't do it again.

Shadow_Ferret · Jan 12, 2006

Jamesaritchie said:
I did the same thing Cathy did, and, amn, was it a huge mistake. The agent called back as soon as she saw the lone sample chapter and synopsis, and told me she had to have the completed novel by the first of the next month. I finished the novel, and it sold, but that was the hardest twenty-one days I've ever spent.

...

My advice is to follow the stanrd advice and do not submit anything until the novel is finished. It's taking a real chance, and you may well blow everything by submitting too soon.

Well, now I'm torn. I do my best work under pressure!

But a month to finish? Maybe if I locked myself in a hotel room away from my family I could do it.

Thanks for all the advice people, I'll wait until I'm done.

Niesta · Jan 12, 2006

Shadow_Ferret said:
Well, now I'm torn. I do my best work under pressure! But a month to finish? Maybe if I locked myself in a hotel room away from my family I could do it.

I do my best work under pressure as well, but there are ways of artificially creating pressure on yourself. I used to send my sisters whatever I'd written each month. If I hadn't written anything...well, let's just say, nobody can rub it in quite like a sibling!

Shadow_Ferret · Jan 12, 2006

Niesta said:
I do my best work under pressure as well, but there are ways of artificially creating pressure on yourself. I used to send my sisters whatever I'd written each month. If I hadn't written anything...well, let's just say, nobody can rub it in quite like a sibling!

No, I suppose not. Unfortunately, my brother doesn't read.

I guess I could try to find a beta reader somewhere and create that deadline pressure.

Jamesaritchie · Jan 12, 2006

Cathy C said:
Greed, pride, overconfidence in ones abilities...

I can't say I'm sorry I did it. I just know I wouldn't do it again.

I wouldn't do it again, either. The reason I did it that first time was because I knew nothing about the business, and from all I read and was told I believed it would be six months or more before I even heard back from an agent, and the answer would almost certainly be "No!" I was sure I'd have to query a dozen or more agents before getting a bite.

In hindsight, I probably should have told the agent the novel wasn't written yet as soon as she called. Instead I just said I'd like to write one more quick draft, and that I'd have it to her on time. I made the deadline, but I did so with very little sleep and a lot of sixteen and eighteen hour days. I have no doubt the novel would have been better had I been able to work on it for another month or two.

It all worked out, but it was not the best way to go. Just because it might take months to hear from an agent, and just because you might have to query several does not mean it always goes that way.

James D. Macdonald · Jan 12, 2006

The answer you want to hear is "I love the sample; send me the rest."

If you aren't ready to send the rest, you aren't ready to send out the sample, either.

Assuming that the agent will just turn you down anyway is a form of betting against yourself. Never bet against yourself.

Cathy C · Jan 12, 2006

Jamesaritchie said:
In hindsight, I probably should have told the agent the novel wasn't written yet as soon as she called. Instead I just said I'd like to write one more quick draft, and that I'd have it to her on time. I made the deadline, but I did so with very little sleep and a lot of sixteen and eighteen hour days.

EXACTLY what I did! I bluffed, they called it, and I spent three weeks pulling this same schedule to make good on the bet. Lots of caffeine and sugar. I don't recommend it for good health (and probably couldn't have pulled it off at ALL if not for a VERY loving and indulgent husband.)

Jamesaritchie · Jan 12, 2006

Cathy C said:
EXACTLY what I did! I bluffed, they called it, and I spent three weeks pulling this same schedule to make good on the bet. Lots of caffeine and sugar. I don't recommend it for good health (and probably couldn't have pulled it off at ALL if not for a VERY loving and indulgent husband.)

The same on every count. Gallons of coffee, though I did skip the sugar, and my wife ran interference for me the entire time. No way could I have done it without her.

crosseyed reader · Jan 12, 2006

Shadow_Ferret said:
Well, now I'm torn. I do my best work under pressure! But a month to finish? Maybe if I locked myself in a hotel room away from my family I could do it.

There's a difference between a brand new author and CathyC and Jamesaritchie. Those are two established writers and have far more leeway with their agents and publishers because they're a proven quantity.

However, a new writer must dance to a different tune, and I seriously doubt that the attention garnered from a publisher when presented with an unfinished work will be favorable.

Finish your work. Refine, edit, send off to your beta readers, and hold on to your bloomers.

L.Jones · Jan 12, 2006

Sign me up for the "I did it that way but don't try this at home" club. When do we meet and will there be doughnuts?

For my part I had completed a couple manuscripts and been rejected. I knew I could finish one at the time.

I've done it that way ever since, selling on proposal or selling blind. More than once this (selling on parital then having to go back and find what it was I loved in that story months later) has come back to bite my chair-shaped behind.

From conception of idea and first chapters to the words 'the end' too much changes. It ain't always the same book you promised in that query. When you are seeking an agent, you are seeking a relationship. Do everything you can to go into that relationship on the best footing. Do the work first, then query.

annie
Luanne Jones
Heathen Girls (available everywhere now)

Cathy C · Jan 12, 2006

crosseyed reader said:
There's a difference between a brand new author and CathyC and Jamesaritchie. Those are two established writers and have far more leeway with their agents and publishers because they're a proven quantity.

Heh. I appreciate the vote of confidence, crosseyed, but I WAS a brand new author when I did it. It was a . . . learning experience. It wasn't until I pulled it off that I discovered I COULD pull it off, but didn't want to again.

On the plus side, I might not have ever made that discovery otherwise, and might not have signed for multi-book contracts -- fearing I couldn't. So, as I say, I don't regret that leap of faith in my skill.

Jamesaritchie · Jan 12, 2006

crosseyed reader said:
There's a difference between a brand new author and CathyC and Jamesaritchie. Those are two established writers and have far more leeway with their agents and publishers because they're a proven quantity.

However, a new writer must dance to a different tune, and I seriously doubt that the attention garnered from a publisher when presented with an unfinished work will be favorable.

Finish your work. Refine, edit, send off to your beta readers, and hold on to your bloomers.

I wasn't established when I pulled that stunt. That was my first novel, and the only writing experience I had previously was writing three short stories. Until just a couple of months before that I hadn't even thought about writing fiction.

crosseyed reader · Jan 12, 2006

Okay, I stand corrected, CathyC and Jamesaritchie. You're just plain ol' brilliant.

Be that as it may, it's not a stunt I'd recommend to anyone for various reasons. Surviving the ordeal appears to be at the top of the list.

Jamesaritchie · Jan 12, 2006

crosseyed reader said:
Okay, I stand corrected, CathyC and Jamesaritchie. You're just plain ol' brilliant.

Be that as it may, it's not a stunt I'd recommend to anyone for various reasons. Surviving the ordeal appears to be at the top of the list.

Nope, I wouldn't recommend it, either. It worked for us, but it's a tough row to hoe, and there's no reason not to finish a novel before trying to land an agent or an editor. Finishing first can save some nasty surprises.

writermom · Jan 12, 2006

No one ever talks about how extremely difficult rewrites are. The focus is always on how difficult it is to write the MS in the first place.

I’m sure that the rewrite process will get better when I have more experience. For now, what to cut, what not to cut, does this make sense, all these questions are starting to drive me insane! LOL

So until you know how the rewrites are going to be for you, I can’t see it as a good idea.

That’s my 2 cents!

Jamesaritchie · Jan 12, 2006

Rewrite

writermom said:
No one ever talks about how extremely difficult rewrites are. The focus is always on how difficult it is to write the MS in the first place.

I’m sure that the rewrite process will get better when I have more experience. For now, what to cut, what not to cut, does this make sense, all these questions are starting to drive me insane! LOL

So until you know how the rewrites are going to be for you, I can’t see it as a good idea.

That’s my 2 cents!

That's another good point. With only three weeks to write my first novel, I had no time for rewrites or revision of any kind. There wasn't even time to edit the thing. I had to submit the first draft. Fortunately, my first draft was good enough to sell as it stood, but this is another really good reason not to submit anything before it's finished.

crosseyed reader · Jan 12, 2006

writermom said:
No one ever talks about how extremely difficult rewrites are. The focus is always on how difficult it is to write the MS in the first place.

I’m sure that the rewrite process will get better when I have more experience. For now, what to cut, what not to cut, does this make sense, all these questions are starting to drive me insane! LOL

So until you know how the rewrites are going to be for you, I can’t see it as a good idea.

That’s my 2 cents!

Writermom, like body types, writers come in all flavors. Some are very instinctual writers, meaning that anything that comes from their keyboards is going to be terrific - like CathyC and Jamesaritchie. They're good, strong writers who, either by virtue of writing classes, an MFA, or just plain brains were able to crank it out right the first time.

Many of us aren't like that. We require months of edits and rewrites, and you're right, it's a pain in the a$$. Knowing what to cut and what to rewrite comes from experience and knowledge (and, yes, instinct).

I'm of the mind that not anyone can write a good book. You can know all of the right mechanics of character development, storyboarding and sentence structure and still write an achingly horrible book. Writing takes heart and passion along with knowing the mechanics, in my opinion. That's the igniter that sparks the life into one's writing. It's instinctual.

If you're constantly trying to figure out what goes and what stays in a story,then it's a sign that you need more education into your craft. It's not unlike the other day when my son's car wouldn't start. I stared blankly at the oily motor wondering what piece to kick. Our mechanic came along and adjusted the carburetor. Voila! Music to my ears. Facts are that the mechanic knew what he was looking for because of his education. Writing is no different.

writermom · Jan 12, 2006

crosseyed reader said:
I'm of the mind that not anyone can write a good book. You can know all of the right mechanics of character development, storyboarding and sentence structure and still write an achingly horrible book. Writing takes heart and passion along with knowing the mechanics, in my opinion. That's the igniter that sparks the life into one's writing. It's instinctual.

If you're constantly trying to figure out what goes and what stays in a story,then it's a sign that you need more education into your craft.

Wow! Without knowing anything about me you’ve decided that I need more education in my craft.

You’re entitled to your opinion.

Finish it before trying to submit?

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