Slang?

Maybe this is not of much help, but a good way to know where to draw the line is to ask someone who speaks english as a second or third language (and preferably doesn't live in an english-speaking country). If they don't understand, then you should not use that slang.

I've never heard of the word 'snarky' before, except some mentions to Mrs. Snark's blog. I thought it was her nickname.

Sage said:

"Dude, that is sooo awesome," would not be said by a 40-year-old investment banker, for example.

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Unless he's being sarcastic with his surfer son or having a midlife crisis and trying to be a surfer dude.

And in your case, if your writing sci-fi/fantasy, make up your own. Anytime you have a question about if something is slang, make up a new word or phrase.

As a personal aside, I'm much more peeved when writers use bad grammar as if it's colloquial. "Where's it at?" "I'm doing real good/bad." "I don't got nothing." "Eat smart." "Drive safe." "Do it right."

Just because locals say it doesn't mean it's not indicative of illiteracy. What's more, if you read or hear something enough times, you tend to pick it up unconsciously.

DamaNegra said:

Maybe this is not of much help, but a good way to know where to draw the line is to ask someone who speaks english as a second or third language (and preferably doesn't live in an english-speaking country). If they don't understand, then you should not use that slang.

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I respectfully disagree with this.

Unless you're writing novels targeted at people who are speaking English as a second language, I wouldn't hold to this rule at all.

You can't hope to write true characters without giving them true to life speaking habits. People use slang. People from different age brackets, regions, experiences all have different manners of speech. Slang and colloquialisms are a big part of that.

So what if "big deal" or "snarky" or "awesome" is slang. That's how people talk now, and you're not writing a Victorian romance, are you? You can do anything you want in dialogue as long as it's true to the characters. Now, in narrative you might have to have more restraint (unless you're telling from 1st person POV that uses slangs)...

Otherwise, I think your reader has a ***** up her ***.

(I also agree that the "write for people whose first language is not English..." is a silly one. You ARE writing for English-speaking (and probably) Americans. Depending on the genre, you should stick with how your characters would talk)

Silly, yes, stupid maybe. But it helps catch slang that can be understood by everyone in spite of the place of origin, I think.

Bleak House Books said:

You can't hope to write true characters without giving them true to life speaking habits. People use slang. People from different age brackets, regions, experiences all have different manners of speech. Slang and colloquialisms are a big part of that.

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Too right. Wait, was that slang? My bad. Oops, did it again.

Slang is difficult to get away from in real life, so why keep it out of dialogue? Obviously you don't want to go nutty in description or narrative, but dialogue is a gold mine. It's just knowing those nuances so that you can use them well.

For instance, my roommate grew up near Pittsburgh. She says "pop." I say "soda." Someone else might say "sodapop" or "cola."

If I wrote a short story set in my hometown (or nearby), a character would very likely ask "Can you do me something?" Why? Because it's what I say, what my sister says, what my parents say....you get the picture. It's a local phrase. I'm sure not everyone says it (most people are somewhat grammatically correct and ask "Can you do something for me?"), but my character could say it.

But obviously watch the slang you use, and monitor who says it. If your MC says "Totally rad!" he'd better be in 1988.

It's also good to remember that some slang words can be 'legitimised' into real words. For instance, the word "mob" (meaning "disorderly part of the population") was originally slang, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone nowadays that considers it a slang word.

So a word or phrase that your friend considers slang could be considered normal by other people ... a quick google for the phrase "big deal" turned up: Big deal is 1928; ironic use first recorded 1951 in "Catcher in the Rye." but in my opinion if something's been around for over 50 years, it's perfectly ok to use it.

If you're really concerned about slang, a good dictionary should be able to help you out too.

The problem I have is not with slang, but with distinguishing dialectal words, both. I used the word "nappy" the other day without realising that my American friend was expecting "diaper".

I got the impression that not all these instances of supposed slang was in dialogue. I think most people agree it's ok in dialogue most of the time (You want to have people speak like people speak). But whether or not it's ok in your prose is another question all together. On the one hand it may date you, but on the other, I don't think it's as bad as you think it might be. For instance, I read a lot of old timey books. And while I don't always know what they're talking about, usually I can figure it out. Like when you read Shakespeare, he uses modern speak (and makes up some of his own). There are so many words and phrases we don't use. But while I don't know that biting one's thumb then is like giving someone the finger now, I don't need to be a genius to figure out that the gesture was insulting to the other character.

So I think you should avoid it if you can (I often find myself using modern phrases and having a hard time coming up with better words than those) -- but not to worry about it too much in the end.

Made up future-slang? Thou shouldst viddy that right horrorshow book of like Anthony Burgess. Nadsat it is. Them slovos might seem a bit bazoomy at first, but just you wait and it'll be like an right old droog to you, O my brothers.

Sage said:

But my last reader for my novel got on my case about all sorts of "slang" that I wasn't aware was slang. A few chapters in, one character says something like "I knew this would be a big deal, but..." & she mentioned that it was slang. Now, I have heard the phrase "big deal" all my life by all kinds of people, so I was not aware it was slang. Then she has the word "slang" written at various points in my novel, many of which I don't agree are truly slang. "The upside was...," for example. Another one I thought was ridiculous was "a lot."

?

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Find a new reader. The one you have just doesn't get it. She doesn't even know what slang is.

DamaNegra said:

Maybe this is not of much help, but a good way to know where to draw the line is to ask someone who speaks english as a second or third language (and preferably doesn't live in an english-speaking country). If they don't understand, then you should not use that slang.

I've never heard of the word 'snarky' before, except some mentions to Mrs. Snark's blog. I thought it was her nickname.

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I'd disagree with this, as well. I think it's a horrible idea. It seems to me that this would make the writing so generic no one would want to read it. I really don't care whether or not everyone in the world understands what I write. My goal is to make it as realistic as possible to the target audience.

Jamesaritchie said:

I'd disagree with this, as well. I think it's a horrible idea. It seems to me that this would make the writing so generic no one would want to read it. I really don't care whether or not everyone in the world understands what I write. My goal is to make it as realistic as possible to the target audience.

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Great point. Author style and voice can so easily be lost in trying to edit out those 'slang' terms. Every word matters, so if you chose snarky because it's the right word for that story, that setting, that character, stick to it.

Annie
Luanne Jones
Heathen Girls (available now)

The OP said that he is writing in another fantasy world. This is a golden opportunity!

Slang, accents, dialect, and aphorisms may be very different, and coming up with little bits of cultural color to sprinkle into the characters' dialogue makes for a richer world.

You'd be suprised what middle-aged executives say among themselves. I knew a VP that liked to walk into a meeting and say 'H-dawg is in the hizzy!'. Particularly in the IT field, where us middle-aged old-fogies do keep track of all the cool slang and use it regularly, mostly in an ironic way. So get out of my grill, you don't need to be all up in my Kool-Aid. OH YEAH!

A Reader's Comment

To Slang or Not to Slang ...

Jamesaritchie said:

Find a new reader. The one you have just doesn't get it. She doesn't even know what slang is.

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My resources indicate that 'big deal' is, in fact, slang. My resources are neither infinite nor unerring.

L.Jones said:

Great point. Author style and voice can so easily be lost in trying to edit out those 'slang' terms. Every word matters, so if you chose snarky because it's the right word for that story, that setting, that character, stick to it.

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Very true. The story in question is a fantasy, and the use of 'big deal' would indicate to me that somewhere in this fantasy world games are played where tokens of some sort (cards, dice, leaves, pebbles, etc.) are distributed in a set manner to the players involved, and furthermore, some of these distributions have a greater meaning than others to any of the set of players and/or spectators.

What I'm trying to say is that the evolution of the phrase 'big deal' has to parallel that evolution in my world so that the references match. Otherwise, it's a break in suspension of disbelief.

MattW said:

The OP [Sage] said that he is writing in another fantasy world. This is a golden opportunity!

Slang, accents, dialect, and aphorisms may be very different, and coming up with little bits of cultural color to sprinkle into the characters' dialogue makes for a richer world.

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I agree. If the fantasy world has evolved the same way. A flint and pottery civilization wouldn't describe a person's eyes as "steely" or someone's hair as "iron grey". They wouldn't have the referent.

Oh well, my dime, my opinion.

Yes, too much of anything is a problem. If you find yourself or your characters using too many slangs, you need to watch out. IMHO, I find the generous use of cliches and idioms more problematic.

Slang

In my opinion, the use of slang is perfectly acceptable. It sets a piece in time and space -- even if it is ungrammatical. If everything were written in "The King's English," everything would sound the same. Yes, of course it dates a piece, but so what? We continue to read Dickens even though the language is "dated."

I've never been a fan of futuristic slang. Where the writer tries to make up words that might one day be popular. "Chiz, that is git. You scanny."

I'm also working on a fantasy WIP, and I definitely need to watch the language I choose to make certain it's consistent with what the people in my story know. It's a medieval setting and technology, so for example I have to avoid any phrases referring to electricity (except lightning) or automation (like "push the button").

Perhaps what the beta reader was picking up on was phrases which didn't seem to match the culture defined in the story. It might be perfectly proper slang (or whatever you want to call it), but perhaps it felt jarring. One example which comes to mind was in one of the new Star Wars movies when Obi-Wan refers to Anakin as a "poster boy". The phrase makes perfect 20th century sense but took my right out of the story since it didn't match my conceptions of their culture.

"But my last reader for my novel got on my case about all sorts of "slang" that I wasn't aware was slang."
- as a writer you need to have a "feel" for the language. When choosing a word, you don't need to know whether that word is labelled as "slang" but you definitely need to know whether said word is fitting and proper. The words you choose will depend on your style. Serious style will need serious words. 'Light'(or 'conversational') style will need 'light'(i.e. 'conversational') words. Compare a Robert Jordan to a Terry Pratchet, for example.

"Then she has the word "slang" written at various points in my novel, many of which I don't agree are truly slang. "
- your reader used the label "slang" not in its strict sense, but in a wider sense, meaning "words used in light conversation only". Those words and expressions are marked as "colloquial" in dictionaries. The point here is not the dictionary definition but the usage. Such words/phrases are part of the spoken language only. That's why you are free to use them in dialogue/monologue, or in first person narrative (which is meant to represent a story told in monologue).

"Where is the line drawn? "
- style should be your guide. If you want your story to sound serious - in the traditional way of the olden times, when an old person used to tell a story by the fire - you should not use slang or conversational words. Fantasy is a particularly old-fashioned genre where readers expect that sort of story, told by an old person by the fire. An exception is when you speak from the mouth of one of the characters. Imagine a fantasy story told like this: "Three was once this dragon that was a really big deal in the mountains. He breathed fire over a rock one day and WHAM! there goes out of it this scrumptious chick-babe, long-hair and everything, bit slutty but okay if you are into that sort of things..." Now, very few people would listen to that sort of fantasy story, because it takes away the main ingredients one expects to find there - the magic and the charm.
Your style of narration defines where you draw the line (Dialogue is an entirely different matter). You either use (any number of) slang and conversational words, and make your story sound like being told in a nonchallant way, either give up slang/conversational words altogether. There is no middle ground. You cannot use one or two slang words here and there if you have chosen the "serious style".

Duncan J Macdonald said:

To Slang or Not to Slang ...



My resources indicate that 'big deal' is, in fact, slang. My resources are neither infinite nor unerring.

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I assume something listed in standard dictionaries is not slang. "Big deal" has been listed for a lot of years, and none of the dictionaries I have labels it as slang. It's part of everyday language, and has been as long as I've been alive.

There are probably ways "big deal" can be used as slang, but slang is generally using one word to mean something else. "Big deal" means just what it says.

Slang

Whatever the type of fiction, or whatever the setting, people should speak in a realistic manner. It may have to be toned down a bit so the reader can understand, but characters have to be who they are, and have to speak in the way that character would speak if you met them on the street.