Help please! I just got thrashed about my novel!!!

Why don't you submit the first page or two in the "Share Your Work" section of this board? I'm sure some of us will take a look at it and give you an opinion.

Well, not having seen the manuscript, I don't know what to tell you. Every rejection is always one person's opinion. Have you given part of this up for critique to anyone? Besides beta readers, I mean.

I personally like "Self-Editing for Fiction Writers"... they have good advice that would address much of what's being pointed out in this letter. Now, that being said, I would read the book, then compare what it says to what you have written. "Writing the Breakout Novel" is good too.

I would find a good group to do an in-depth crit, and see if any of their comments match up with what this agent is saying. Usually if more than one person says it, it's probably prudent to follow the advice.

JMHO

Nobody here can say very much without having read some of what you have written, of course; but it looks as though much of the criticism you got can easily be verified, as it's quite specific. Is there a lot of incidental information in parentheses, and does it distract from the narrative flow? Did you switch tenses? Did you make errors in dialogue tags? If so, these things are correctible without overhauling the plot or characters, I would think.

I suggest having the work looked at by a small group of people who are neither your friends nor professionals who could profit from your custom. You could post excerpts here or use a free exchage site like critiquecircle.com

Without seeing it or knowing about either you or the editor not much more can be said except that some of the points raised are common mistakes made by new authors.

Weird, it said my password was wrong. Otherwise I'd have been happy to take a look.

The password is vista

It didn't grab me - just not my sort of thing, I guess. Very poetic, but I didn't see much reason to keep reading. I myself don't generally read just to bask in the glory of beautiful prose (which yours certainly is!) I generally only read if there is some sort of unanswered question, tension, a vivid character...something to impel my curiosity. I didn't find that in either of these pieces, so after a little while my impatient brain went, "why am I reading this?" and my mind just drifted off.

Admittedly I feel the same way about a lot of the published stories I see in literary journals. So again, I'm probably not the best person to pay attention to. I'm not saying I don't like anything literary - I adore Dickens, Toni Morrison (yes she is literature!), and I'm one of the few people under 30 who has read Moby Dick in its entirety, including the whaling parts. I'm not some attention-span challenged Gen-Xer or anything. But I just don't like a lot of the stuff I see in literary journals these days.

Someone wrote to Marion Zimmer Bradley once, "Stop showing me how beautifully you write and tell me a story." Of course in genre fiction that's ten times as true, and you're not writing genre fiction. But still, people need a story - a reason to keep reading. If you want an example of a beautiful marriage of poetic lyricism and narrative tension, read "Sabbath Queens" in the latest issue of Glimmer Train. It's the kind of writing I usually don't like - present tense, very dense and poetic in places, sort of wandering... but I kept reading it because there was a very clear personal emotional issue at stake (which you don't even find out exactly what it is until halfway through, but even the opening paragraph is saturated with it).

Anyway, you've probably already completely dismissed my opinion right now, as I'm nobody, but you did ask for feedback in general...

Bottom line, you write well, but you don't seem to make any effort to "pull in" your audience at all. And without that ability, it's really hard to get anything sold in this day and age.

Yikes, I couldn't get passed the first story. The formatting was enough to make me, well, crosseyed.

The second story needs work. I don't mean this as a dig, but there are a lot of writers who are so in love with their prose that they forget to tell the story.

I think the critique you recieved was very generous. All too often writers never receive any feeback from an editor and are left wondering why they were rejected.

This also is a perfect example of the subjectivity of personal taste. What one house rejects, another may love. It all comes down to the question of marketability.

I looked at the first piece, and I found one period...I think. I ran it through grammar check and got a 12.0 grade level, which would have been a lot more, except it won't go any higher. Periods are inexpensive devices. So are paragraph breaks. You don't get any points from me for making your writing so hard on the reader. And I can certainly understand why an editor would shy away from this. It would be a monumental task, with the expectation of a poor reception by the author.



On the plus side, you are very smart. And I’m sure that you will, as you age and your brain cells die off, one day be stupid enough to write on my level.

I have to agree with those above. Your writing is beautiful but it remains the only reason to continue reading. The pull, the interest in the story and characters, just isn't there. I tried reading all the way through three times but I couldn't make it. However, understand, I am no expert. This is more or less a reader's opinion so please take it as is.

I am not a literary critic and I don't read enough "literary fiction" to qualify myself as a worthy critter, so take my words with a grain of salt if you must.

The first one did NOT grab me. It was one giant, long sentence and I found myself, instead of reading what you had to say, trying to find the revered period. It's not to say you're a bad writer, but you display a lack of understanding of commercial market and what people are looking for, outside of the academic circles. Experimental fiction (I immediately place your excerpt as such because I have never seen commercial fiction -- genre or literary -- written that way) is hard to sell. It immediately distracted me, and if there were any character development or wisdom or a hint of a plot in that thousand-word sentence, you're not communicating it to me because I was distracted, by the lack of one silly punctuation.

Now I do like "Rush Week" to some extent, then my eyes started to gloss over, and when the formatting became, again, a long, out-of-control sequence of words, I stopped reading. Maybe it's just me, but I see potential in your writing, and you just need to harness that abiliity so that you can communicate your story to your readers.

I agree with Maestro's observation...your material strikes me as experimental. It could be brilliant literary material or brilliant in the making. However, even a cursory glance of the current market reveals that experimental fiction does not sell in the sense that one could reasonable expect to land an advance of 5k to 50k or whatever within the next several years (unless you query the right agent at the right agency at the right time who sells it to the right editor at the right publisher at the right time).

It may be an issue of re-evaluating your priorities for works like this. Are you hoping just to publish it, for a very minimal advance or none at all? Or are you really hoping to make a steady income from it (even if only a secondary income)? Maybe the only audience who can truly grasp it are academics. In that case, I suppose you'd have to forget wide exposure. But if that's the audience you want, then target your queries to those publishers.

Every once in a while I'm sure there's an equivalent of a generation's A Confederacy of Dunces (but hopefully without the tragic suicide). My point is that as brilliant as a literary work can be, the market may not be ready for it. Yes, you should write what you are passionate about. But that may not always match what will sell in the current market. That is one of the tragedies of writing. Even if you improved 100%, what are your chances, realistically, of publication? I've read in several places that agents routinely turn down great manuscripts, sometimes for very practical reasons. So you have that against you, too.

At any rate, you've shown a lot of courage by asking for feedback and posting your work (standing O).

I don't understand what he's talking about in regard to present tense. Present tense is a perfectly legit POV. Is it that the POV is inconsistent (making unexplained leaps from past to present tense)?

Life in a Flash reads to me like it should be an oral presentation.

I didn't check out the other one at all because I'm still looking for that period in the first one.

Good luck with the editing and finding homes for these bad boys.

Did you rewrite this material? It needs one. What's the big deal?

It sounds like you are taking the rejection personally. That's not what the editor was trying to do. He was only trying to guide you in the right direction. He was telling you "I would buy this if this and this was done to it." I do recommend those books he suggested. I read them and I feel much better about my writing now.

The whole block of writing... waaaay to much. I couldn't even get into it. They style is a little... uncomfortable for a commercial story.

These need rewriting and editing. Don't take that personal. Writing is hard work.

I will be blunt. The manuscript as written needs to be more than edited; it needs to be rewritten.


Several problems.

First, I started reading through the text waiting for the end of the synopsis. It read like one.

Second, as I continued to read, I was distracted by all the author intrusion (author putting explanations in parenthesis).

There were other problems like go-nowhere dialogue and dialogue/tags incorrectly written, and the use of the present tense.

If I might make a few suggestions. This author needs to take some classes from a "published author", not his college professor. He needs to learn about viewpoint, dialogue, and moving the plot along from someone who knows how to do that.

It would also benefit him to read Dwight Swain's "Techniques of the Selling Writer", Evan Marshall's "The Marshall Plan for Novel Writing", and Donald Maass's "Writing the Breakout Novel".

From his letter, I'm not sure this is what he wants to hear, but it's the truth. I don't want to take his money, so I am not giving a quote. To be honest the manuscript needs a lot of work. It needs to be totally rewritten.

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Brutal.

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Blunt, yes. Brutal? I don't think so. It feels that this editor was actually doing you a great favor. He didn't take your money and try to make the best out of what he could. Instead, he's given you suggestions so you can improve the piece.

Where to start? If you want you can read the books. Or, you can take to heart the suggestions this editor has provided for you. (Personally, I'd love to have feedback like this from an professional, especially free of charge.)

Based on the work you've submitted to SYW, I agree with the consensus. It seems you already have a strong sense of writing, yet formatting changes and some other issues mentioned above are distracting me from getting into depths of the story. You've got some of those issues outlined already from the editor.

Take a week or two and put both the manuscript and the editor's letter (maybe even this thread) aside. Come back to it with a fresh pair of eyes and a fresh pen, and start revising. Perhaps there's nothing wrong with the manuscript at all, maybe you've just submitted the wrong draft, and the next one will be right.

Good luck!

I didn't read either of your stories because I have to have a story. Preferably one with some romance or even some sex in it. However, I have learned to sit on a critique for a day or two (or even a week) before taking it to heart. It lets the hurt/rejected feelings wear off and the practical side of your brain take over. Some of the chapters I've had ripped apart the most, ended up being the best. I'd say that the guy was being 100% honest since he didn't try to take your money, and he's a pro, so he should be listened to. "Self-Editing for Fiction Writers" is a great took, in my opinion, and might help you a little.

Oh, another thing I've learned is to always save your original copy. That way if you rewrite a piece to death, you can revive it with the original and try again.

Good luck with your work, whether you try to rewrite it or not.
Stacey

Based on what others said, I only read the second exerpt, and I didn't get to the second paragraph of that.

Here's my advice: Forget about the appraisal you received and also about the book. For a while. No matter how timely it is, it needs to cool off.

Give it several months. I suggest six. Write another project in the meantime. When the six months are up, take out your manuscript and a book you admire. Put your manuscript on the right side of your desk and the novel on the left. Read 8-10 pages of the published novel, then immediately pick up your manuscript and read 10 pages.

How do they compare?

Don't let this get to you. Hitting bumps in the road, esp big ones, is an important part of the process. Believing that you've created great work and then being rejected out of hand by all possible buyers is another important part.

Try another agent.

macandal said:

From his letter, I'm not sure this is what he wants to hear, but it's the truth. I don't want to take his money, so I am not giving a quote. To be honest the manuscript needs a lot of work. It needs to be totally rewritten.

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Something in this quote caught my eye. I recently attended a workshop given by The River Writers Support Group in Laughlin, Nevada. They are a group of published writers and I believe one of their members is also a publisher. One of the jobs they have taken on is to give advice to aspiring authors about common mistakes and pitfalls to avoid. One such pitfall is any publisher or agent who asks the author for money up front. It sounds like this agent was intending to do so. Agents and publishers work on comission(for lack of a better word). They don't get paid unless the author does. If you submit a ms to an agent or publisher and they ask you for money before-hand. Walk away.

No matter how delicious an offer they make; just walk away 'cause something ain't stirring the koolaid.

Story

Bear in mind this is just one opinion, and bear in mind that I'm not a big fan of stream on consciousness writing.

In all honesty, there's no story in the first excerpt, there's only a long, long, long piece of writing that could really use a bunch of periods and paragraph breaks. It reads like a synopsis, rather than a story, and it's endlessly repetitive. You tell us this, then tell us that, then tell us this and tell us that all over again. That's synopsis writing. And to no real purpose that I can see. My eyes stopped focusing several times, probably because they were tired of looking for a period.

In the second piece, the dialogue doesn't ring true at all, and it goes on and on, saying the say things over and over. The dialogue takes away any virtue the second piece might have had. And every bit of the dialogue in the second piece could have been condensed down to four or five lines without losing a thing.

There are technical problems. Many of them. There are changes in tense, and there are at least a couple mistakes in tense.

You say "It's literary, it's timely, the subject matter has not bee written about (and I've looked). I think people will want to read this book. Isn't that what we're told? "Write the book you would want to read." I heard that a lot along the way. I did. Could it be that no one likes the kind of books I like?"

First, I don't find it literary at all. Literary does not mean writing three mile long sentences, or writing like a synopsis, or hiding the story beneath stream of consciousness prose. Subject matter is fine, but people don't read books only because of subject matter, they read books because the writing, the story, and the characters draw them in. Without these elements being right, subject matter has no meaning. People have to enjoy what they read. Frankly, from the excerpts, I have no clue at all what the subject matter of this book is, or what the story might be.

Do you really like books written as yours is written? Do you enjoy sentences as long as the one in your first excerpt? Yes, I've read extremely long sentenecs in some literary works, but I can't recall ever reading a book written the way yours is. GGood long sentences have purpose, they don't ramble or repeat, and they actually have something to say. Where have you read such a book? "Write the book you want to read" is good advice, but you also have to write the book in a way that's readable.

Again, I am not a fan of stream of consciousness prose, but I have read a good bit of it, and good stream of consciousness has point and purpose. It doesn't waste words, it doesn't read like a synopsis, and it tells a good story. It uses good, realistic, meaningful dialogue, and it knows when to compress, when to skip over repetative points.

I suspect your big mistake is in trying to write "literary" fiction. I love literary fiction, but when a writer tries too hard to make something literary, the opposite usually occurs.

Again, mine is just one opinion, but as an editor I would have stopped reading before the hundred word mark in either excerpt. As a reader, I wouldn't have gotten that far.

There may be a good story here somewhere. The subject matter may be wonderful. Both, however, are hidden beneath the pseudo-literary writing.

My advice would be to read the suggested books. Then rewrite this novel without letting the word "literary" enter your mind. "Literary" means good writing, good story, good characters. "Literary" means doing the same thing other writers are doing, the things readers want, only doing them considerably better than anyone else. "Literary" does not mean hiding story and character behind a writing style that's unreadable.

In addition to reading the suggested books, I'd ask who are your three favorite novelists? Do any of them write the way you write? What is it you like about them? Dissect them. Learn what it is they do well, and do the same thing yourself. Imitate them.

An original voice can be a fine thing, or a horrendous thing. Original does not automatically mean good. Even the worst writer can have an original voice.

Bear in mind, this is just my opinion, but if you really want readers to enjoy the story and the characters and the subject matter, then I suggest you back off the "literary" writing and just tell a good story. Real literature comes from a good story, well-told. Meaningful subject matter hidden is meaningless subject matter.

The Gorn said:

It sounds like this agent was intending to do so. Agents and publishers work on comission(for lack of a better word). They don't get paid unless the author does.

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People seem to be thinking this advice was from an editor. Note: "I looked for help with an editorial service"

This advice is from a person who stood to make hundreds of dollars as a book doctor. Hence they are giving this advice despite the fact it is probably costing them a job.

veinglory said:

People seem to be thinking this advice was from an editor. Note: "I looked for help with an editorial service"

This advice is from a person who stood to make hundreds of dollars as a book doctor. Hence they are giving this advice despite the fact it is probably costing them a job.

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I read some of the replies and wondered if they (confused about service) read the original message clearly. What you call a book doctor is someone who offers a valuable service if you can benefit from their expertise. The advice given by this person was worth the price of admission, in my opinion. Yes, they were very ethical because they didn't take you for a magic carpet (ride) write and leave you with an emptied wallet. I think they did you a great service by making some suggestions that would help steer you in the right direction.

Good luck with your writing,

Jon