SF/F coffee talk...

Done to death, unless you can invent a new twist (or revitalize an old one). And I don't mean "Rage"-inspired twists, because those aren't twists, they're cliches.

I'm on the fence on this one. I guess using current folklore - done to death. But we just made a whole new backstory reality and method of shifting in our upcoming book so that it's a new twist and I think it really works well.

But of course, I'm somewhat prejudiced too...

I haven't read enough of the werewolf stuff to have an informed opinion on what's been done to death, but I started to think about where the idea of werewolves came from. Wolves were, I guess, an embodiment of all the scary, powerful elements of the world when people lived in the country and their lives were really impacted by nature. But now we live in cities, maybe it's time to update the werewolf. What is/are the things which city people half envy, half fear? (I'm thinking part of the appeal of werewolves is that by humans taking on part of a wolf's nature, it suggests that our fears aren't alien or uncontrollable.)

Cockroaches? I mean, those critters can survive anything. Viruses? They're a big fear factor in cities. Or something mechanical.

I nearly deleted this post without posting since it's not very clear and I can't seem to get my thoughts any clearer (need coffee), but I'll put it out there for ridicule since I want to say to Cathy - cute kids.

Jenny

Nothing is ever really "done to death" as long as it is original and twisted in it's own way. You can do anything, as long as it's original in an exciting way or original enough..you know what I mean. And, of course, so long as the reader is hooked to the point where they can't go to sleep until it's finished.

any idea on critiques???

folks... just wanted to ask everyone here.. if at all any of you can help me get a notable critique or something like that.. which could help me. Recently i got my short fiction completed and am in look out for a critique..
to tell u all,I belong to a small state... its in INDIA.. i hope that doesn't stirr in a whole new episode of 'prejudices' . Im locate at south of china ,so really an economically drenched area ... in short, wanted to ask if there would be someone to help me out..
My book is about the polity in our state, the corruption and how normal citizens are affected because of the government's myopic eye on in states daily affairs...
Taru

Instead of becoming a werewolf at certain times with the changes of the moon, how about the guy learning he's a werewolf the first time he has sex and kills his lover? Also, unknown to him, something about him then begins attracting women to him who want to go to bed with him. That could lead to some desperate measures such as joining a monastery or becoming a hermit. Anyway, it's just an idea I'm throwing out if you or anyone can find a use for it.

DaveKuzminski said:

Instead of becoming a werewolf at certain times with the changes of the moon, how about the guy learning he's a werewolf the first time he has sex and kills his lover? Also, unknown to him, something about him then begins attracting women to him who want to go to bed with him. That could lead to some desperate measures such as joining a monastery or becoming a hermit. Anyway, it's just an idea I'm throwing out if you or anyone can find a use for it.

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Wasn't this the movie Cat People?

I don't remember the show, but I remember seeing a documentary which linked some of the old werewolf myths with problems with the food supply. Apparently there's some sort of mold which can grow in rye and has hallucinogenic properties, so people eating bread made from the tainted rye were having nightmare hallucinations where they believed they turned into animals.

Personally, I find the idea of cursed characters interesting. How they deal with the curse can be illuminating. Would someone cursed with lycanthropy see it as blessing or gift?

TheIT said:

I don't remember the show, but I remember seeing a documentary which linked some of the old werewolf myths with problems with the food supply. Apparently there's some sort of mold which can grow in rye and has hallucinogenic properties, so people eating bread made from the tainted rye were having nightmare hallucinations where they believed they turned into animals.

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You weren't eating the moldy bread - I remember that show too. But not the name.

In general, I think any attempt at werewolves must respond to the brilliant reverse werewolf in Mason & Dixon (Pynchon)...

The best werewolf story I've ever read, is actually a poem called "Bisclavret", by Maris de France. I can't think of a single instance of straight werewolves since that didn't make me shudder a little at how tired I am of werewolves.

I think Werewolves are a tad used. Personal transmography tends to be some attempt to strip the mask of civility from the beast within. So, how come that beast is always a wolf? Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde pulled off the same transmography without even a mention of wolves.

Why do you need an animal at all? Just show the change. The claws. The hair. The beastly growling. The ferocity. The amnesia.

Instead of focusing on a "werewolf" per se, focus on the transformation. Why even mention the silly, loaded word?

badducky said:

Why do you need an animal at all? Just show the change. The claws. The hair. The beastly growling. The ferocity. The amnesia.

Instead of focusing on a "werewolf" per se, focus on the transformation. Why even mention the silly, loaded word?

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In The 10th Kingdom mini-series, they originally were going to have the werewolf character Wolf go through the complete transformation from man into animal form. I think they even build an animatronic wolf head. Then they saw Scott Cohen's performance, and decided it was so intense they didn't need the fancy special effects. Sometimes less is more.

Sage said:

Were-jaguars are a twist...

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I think Laurell K. Hamilton does all the were-animal things.

And werewolves aren't done to death any more than any other "preternatural" creature has been.

I have a female werewolf in my story with were-pheremones that are driving my protag crazy without him knowing why.

Luckily, werewolves only go into heat during the full moon.

When I was editing I probably read 500 werewolf stories. Not one of them managed to transcend the cliche.

I write gritty stories. If I was to do a werewolf story, I would rid all the societies, politics, romanticism, magic, and mythologies that riddle mainstream vampire/lycan literature, and focus on the bare bones of the concept. "Someone get's bitten by a werewolf - they have to cope with it" isn't a cliche. Simply your own take on it would count as something refreshing.

Mike Coombes said:

When I was editing I probably read 500 werewolf stories. Not one of them managed to transcend the cliche.

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Is transcendence necessary? Can't it just be a well-written interesting story? This transcending thing. That's quite a burden.

transcendence is unimportant if you don't care about sucking.


If you want to write a good werewolf story, what will you do that rises above the stuff that came before? What separates you from the herd of sheep in wolf's clothing and makes you an actual wolf?

As I said, why does it have to rise above? Why can't it just be good writing with good characterization that happens to have werewolves in it?

I write to entertain, not achieve some high falootin' upper tier status.

As long as people read it and enjoy it, that's all I care about, not if I make some critic's list or even achieve "transcendence."

I think there's a lot of ground in between "transcendence" and "sucking" and a lot of area there for readers to find what they like. It's not an either/or proposition.

I agree with Shadow_Ferret - as long as it's an entertaining story, it doesn't matter if elements have been used before. There are lots of story elements (either normal or supernatural) that have been used for centuries. They can still be fresh if done well.

My favorite werewolf tale (tail?) is the short story "Boobs", which had a new twist, at least for me. It wasn't "transcendent", but it did put a big smile on my face.

Personally, I don't know if were-creature stories are done to death. I would argue that the 'White Wolf/Dungeons and Dragon' style ones are done to death (but then again, what from White Wolf Games isn't done to death?).

However, one of the best 'werewolf' stories I've ever read was a young adult novel titled, I believe, "man-wolf" which wasn't about a werewolf at all but about a child who suffered from a very real disease during the time of the Crusades, that burned him in the sunlight and turned his teeth/voids a dark red color. Because of his mangled, scarred face (from many burns as an infant) and his reddish teeth - not to mention his nocturnal habits, he was accused of being a 'werewolf'.

I recall this book being so enjoyable it was the only thing to distract me from the pain of a horrible ear infection that was causing me to stay awake at nights.

Also, what is 'done to death' is the idea that any person who is 'injured' by a creature and infected by that 'creature' (other than vampires) is somehow a 'werewolf'. One of my novels featured a character trying to fight off the infection received by a creature and all the first readers of the first chapter started saying how much they 'hated' werewolf stories. I even managed to include a description of the 'quarter moon' as a further sign it wasn't a 'werewolf' story.

But I have to throw my full support to Shadow Ferret's thoughts. The idea of coming up with something 'original' and 'transcending' above everything else should be secondary to telling a damned good story. Like makers of science fiction films - the good ones like James Cameron - say, the effects are nice, but without a good story, they're worthless. Here, you can have a great 'transcendant' idea, but without a good story, it's worthless.

Rabe...

Shadow_Ferret said:

Is transcendence necessary? Can't it just be a well-written interesting story? This transcending thing. That's quite a burden.

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Only if you expect to get published. Then transcending is an essential.

India is full of were-animals, tigers being the norm, I think. In my part of India, we have a special group of people who assume animals forms at will, by sorcery. They can change back when they want.

Werewolves are done to death only when you repeat the same cliches. You can think of umpteen number of variations.

I read an interesting one in the last year or two, it was a book about a were-wolf detective. It brought the elements of werewolves and detective stories together almost as well as Glen Cook's works bring PI and fantasy novels together.

Were-Bears are underutilized. There is a lot of myth and legend to draw from and build some exciting stuff if you research a little.

I have a fresh take, but I am still working on all the details. It is not on the top of my list right now, but it is there. It fits in with a humorous world/series I am working on. But I have not thought much about the were-wolf details.