What "force" to use on a futuristic fence?

vrabinec · May 10, 2012

I'm wracking my brain here, and I'm coming up short. It's really quite humbling. Anyway, I need my military government to put up a fence that consists of tall posts with some sort of force they emit between them to form the barrier, and I'm striking out. I don't want to go with laser. It has to be visible, so something like powerful x-rays or microwaves probably wouldn't work. Any suggestions?

RichardGarfinkle · May 10, 2012

Does the fence keep things out or blast things that try to pass through it?

vrabinec · May 10, 2012

It's a fence erected as a barrier to encircle a city. I want it to be a bit violent, maybe something that got rejected as a border fence because people crossing disregarded the warning signs and got fried or hurt somehow, and the military picked up the technology. I was thinking of frying anything that tried to penetrate, but blasting might work as well. Kind of a motion detector that zaps.

Al Stevens · May 10, 2012

Just make something up. The "sub-phased ionic field array," or something silly like that. That's how we got "flux capacitor," "holodeck," and so on.

vrabinec · May 10, 2012

Making something up is my last resort. I'd love to give the readers something that might be plausible. I've kept everything else plausible up to now, and this is the last gizmo I have left to describe.

JSDR · May 10, 2012

A gaseous form of flesh-eating microbes contained in a sheet of air maintained at a specific temperature?

ETA: They'd be irradiated, of course, so you could see them....

Al Stevens · May 10, 2012

You might have to make it up. We don't have real force fields yet. ("Shields up, Scotty!") A laser array could, when a beam is broken, ignite something, but you don't want to use lasers, so that's out. Maybe motion detectors.

RichardGarfinkle · May 10, 2012

One of the problems with most fields that could actually be put up is that they would interact with the atmosphere as much as they would interact with people. But if you have motion detecters nearly anything nasty would work.

The trickiest thing about this is that any tech like this will have implications elsewhere. For example, if the fence blasts people with high energy positrons then you have the means to create high energy positrons on the cheap. Which means you would have other tech that uses high energy positrons such as bombs or power supplies using electron-positron annihilation.

There isn't a particle or field available from physics that doesn't have this kind of implication somewhere.

The safest things to use in terms of implications are light (lasers, masers, etc) or electricity.

You can use sonic effects if you want. They produce a number of interesting effects:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonic_weaponry

Fins Left · May 10, 2012

Have you looked at milimeter wave devices? They're already using them in the field and proposing them for a prison system in California. They basically "burn" the victim. They're not supposed to create permanent damage, but a video of a guy who allowed himself to get 'blasted' made it look really painful.

An advanced version of this, with high enough energy and wide enough path might cook anything that tried to go through it? BUT, you can also shield yourself from it under the right circumstances.

I think Ratheon was the manufacturer promoting them to the military for crowd control.

Teinz · May 10, 2012

How about a series of Van de Graaff generators.

Or a hedge of genetically enhanced Poison Ivy.

Or a wall made out of retractable, unclimbable, steel slabs that swing up everytime someone comes close.

Specially trained and adapted predators that tear up anyone who crosses the line...

vrabinec · May 10, 2012

Thanks guys. Lots for me to ponder.

benbradley · May 10, 2012

I don't know what your objection is, but I would use a laser (or several). As far as activating it, there's already technology such as Microsoft's Kinect that can measure how far away someone is from a distance, so it could activate well before someone steps in between the posts.

This may not be quite what you were describing, but I'm thinking of something that's a deterrent as well as a defense (this is how I think it "should" work - a device that just has a sign that says "Warning, this will kill you" may collect the bodies of young children and those who can't read English). When you get within ten feet it shines a red laser on you, the low-power handheld kind - it won't hurt you unless you have the bad luck of it shining directly into your eye, but it demonstrates the point that you've been detected. As you get closer the real stuff turns on, such as the millimeter-wave RF beam already mentioned (it's like a microwave oven, but at a higher frequency, so it just barely pentrates the skin and heats up your pain-detecting nerves) that causes a burning feeling. If you somehow continue and get between the post, things (could be microwave, could be infrared laser, whatever) turn on full throttle and you catch on fire.

This system will easily enough to deter a casual person (or animal) who may accidentally get too close, but trying to run between the posts is instant suicide.

Snick · May 10, 2012

If it is static until something is detected, then the lasers would work, but that idea of van der Graf geneerators would be interesting. I was thinkg static electricty even before I saw that.

Another possibility would be something that Ionized whatever was in range - stripped the electrons and suppressed the charge for a brief time, then restored the harges on the particles and allowed them to interact normally. It would result in molecular bonds breaking, and then there would be a high voltage charge on everything for a short time. If it only acted on the outermost layers of anything, then it might not kill, but it would mess things p.

FalconMage · May 10, 2012

High frequency sound generators? Lethal or non-lethal explosive devices on vibration-sensitive mounts?

vrabinec · May 10, 2012

I would think the "light" portion would have to be visible at all times to avoid someone coming at the thing at high speeds from having to stop on a dime. And that way I can give the reader a visual of a swirling blue or red wall like a plane of light makes coming through the shutters into a roomfull of smoke. I could do that with lasers that oscilated up and down a couple hundred times a second or something like that. That's cool.

The van Der Graf generators could be cool. I could make the posts look like a stack of metalic balls, but I'm worried about the rage. I'm encircling a city, so the posts need to cover a space even if they're placed about a half mile apart. I'd think it would need to be something more focused. The millimeter waves look promising. So far that looks like a winner. I could make massive generators at one end with some kind of conical amplifiers on each post that receive the waves, make sure they don't dissipate, and fire them on to the next post. Sound plausible enough? I mean, if they're using them for space technology, then they definitely have the range, all I'm doing is boosting the power above what today's technology allows. (Unless our military has something up its sleeve that isn't showing up on the internet.)

benbradley · May 10, 2012

FalconMage said:
High frequency sound generators? Lethal or non-lethal explosive devices on vibration-sensitive mounts?

How about LOW frequency sound generators? Look up the brown tone.

Future Shock · May 10, 2012

vrabinec said:
I would think the "light" portion would have to be visible at all times to avoid someone coming at the thing at high speeds from having to stop on a dime. And that way I can give the reader a visual of a swirling blue or red wall like a plane of light makes coming through the shutters into a roomfull of smoke. I could do that with lasers that oscilated up and down a couple hundred times a second or something like that. That's cool.

The van Der Graf generators could be cool. I could make the posts look like a stack of metalic balls, but I'm worried about the rage. I'm encircling a city, so the posts need to cover a space even if they're placed about a half mile apart. I'd think it would need to be something more focused. The millimeter waves look promising. So far that looks like a winner. I could make massive generators at one end with some kind of conical amplifiers on each post that receive the waves, make sure they don't dissipate, and fire them on to the next post. Sound plausible enough? I mean, if they're using them for space technology, then they definitely have the range, all I'm doing is boosting the power above what today's technology allows. (Unless our military has something up its sleeve that isn't showing up on the internet.)

You don't have to have both components match up. Meaning you can have a visible representation of the fence without that being the actual deterrent. So a laser light fence (visual reminder) with non-lethal sonic as the actual force (deterrent).

Also, you'd need something that could physically stop objects. Even in a high tech future, the most practical means to do so would be physical barriers up to and including Star Trek level tech. Today we have remote control cars. Hell, the MythBuster (and Hollywood SFX guys) can trick out full-sized cars up to a RC rig. They'll still have them in the future. You can design 100 little ways to stop various things, anti-radiowave field, electromagetic field, etc to try to stop all the ways to bypass the tech, or you can just have a wall. SF doesn't always mean the high tech solutions are the best.

What it ultimately comes down to is your story. What's most important in your story? Does it really matter what the fence is, and how it works?

benbradley said:
How about LOW frequency sound generators? Look up the brown tone.

MythBusters busted it.

Darkarma · May 10, 2012

Plasma encased by a magnetic field. Its currently how NASA is thinking to do future windows that are star trek big.

It would be extremely visible.

FalconMage · May 10, 2012

benbradley said:
How about LOW frequency sound generators? Look up the brown tone.

Mythbusters aside, low frequency is hard to direct.

That's why, in car audio, woofers (low-frequency speakers) can be in the trunk, while tweeters (high frequency speakers) have to be carefully placed and aimed.

Future Shock · May 10, 2012

Darkarma said:
Plasma encased by a magnetic field. Its currently how NASA is thinking to do future windows that are star trek big.

It would be extremely visible.

And this would be a nice nod to the planned tokamak reactors.

But I'm not sure what you mean. If this is a method to create a window (i.e. transparent enough to see through), then how is it also simultaneously "extremely visible"?

FalconMage · May 10, 2012

Oh! Larry Niven! Monofilament line! It's how the puppetteer was decapitated in Ringworld. It could be reactive like fiberoptic line, so you shine a light signal through it, maybe even a flashing light.

And the results could be quite... dramatic depending on how tight you weave the fiber.

Darkarma · May 10, 2012

Future Shock said:
And this would be a nice nod to the planned tokamak reactors.

But I'm not sure what you mean. If this is a method to create a window (i.e. transparent enough to see through), then how is it also simultaneously "extremely visible"?

I suspect visibility would be largely related to how its set up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_window What I was referring to, was ages ago on the NASA channel that I saw something about it. But for the purposes of a fence I suspect a larger amount of plasma or a specific kind being used would likely be visible. Or at the very least, someone might notice and magnetic metal their wearing might be a bit reactive in its presence.

As for the Tokamak, I was in the one in San Diego. Field trip, my physics professor works there as his main job. One of the coolest days I've ever had.

FOTSGreg · May 10, 2012

There are already seismic detectors designed to detect humans (supposedly used around Area 51 to keep unwelcome tourists out), invisible laser "tripwires" (we had one set up behind the animal building at LBNL), and a variety of other systems. Slave these to sentry guns (machine guns, recoil less rifles, automatic shotguns, flamethrowers, and grenade launchers, etc.) and you'd just have to occasionally send someone out to reload ammo and clean up the messes. No exotic technology needed.

vrabinec · May 11, 2012

Future Shock said:
What it ultimately comes down to is your story. What's most important in your story? Does it really matter what the fence is, and how it works?

No, it doesn't matter. It's a minor plot point. But there's a core of sci-fi readers that are relatively tech-savvy, and I want to do the best I can to make it plausible for them. I feel I owe it to them as a writer.

benbradley · May 11, 2012

The "problem" with the brown tone is sound in air doesn't couple well into solid objects such as the human body, but a standing on a vibrating platform couples the vibrations very well, as I referenced here:
http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4777340&postcount=21
And yes, low-frequency sound is omnidirectional, but it diminishes in intensity from the source at the usual inverse-square rate of radiation.

FalconMage said:
Oh! Larry Niven! Monofilament line! It's how the puppetteer was decapitated in Ringworld. It could be reactive like fiberoptic line, so you shine a light signal through it, maybe even a flashing light.

And the results could be quite... dramatic depending on how tight you weave the fiber.

If we're getting that geeky, monofilament was earlier used in the novel "Stand On Zanzibar" (1968) in a nearly identical way, to cut people's heads off.

vrabinec said:
No, it doesn't matter. It's a minor plot point. But there's a core of sci-fi readers that are relatively tech-savvy, and I want to do the best I can to make it plausible for them. I feel I owe it to them as a writer.

And this will (IMHO, because I'm one of them geeks) make a substantial difference in the reviews such tech-savvy people write, and whether they'll buy your next novel.

What "force" to use on a futuristic fence?

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