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Modulated Ordovician Extinction

RichardGarfinkle

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Interesting, but sort of obvious.

A species that is prolific in a narrow range of acceptable circumstances can suddenly die off if that narrow range changes.

Whereas a less prolific but more flexible species can maintain a relatively even population during catastrophe.

It's a Darwinian version of slow and steady wins the race.
 

Maxx

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Interesting, but sort of obvious.

A species that is prolific in a narrow range of acceptable circumstances can suddenly die off if that narrow range changes.

Whereas a less prolific but more flexible species can maintain a relatively even population during catastrophe.

It's a Darwinian version of slow and steady wins the race.

That would make sense, but the findings suggest the opposite: being prolific gets you through the catastrophes, but doesn't improve your species survival time in normal times. Why?
 

RichardGarfinkle

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That would make sense, but the findings suggest the opposite: being prolific gets you through the catastrophes, but doesn't improve your species survival time in normal times. Why?

You're right. I misread the article first time through. This also can make sense, he said, rapidly switching course.

A prolific species has a larger number of individuals to survive the extinction event. But that doesn't mean they are adapted or easily adapt to the post extinction environment.
 

Maxx

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You're right. I misread the article first time through. This also can make sense, he said, rapidly switching course.

A prolific species has a larger number of individuals to survive the extinction event. But that doesn't mean they are adapted or easily adapt to the post extinction environment.

It's a somewhat more complicated picture than that I suspect. The article also notes that in the case of brachipods over the long term, species with low populations (and so I'm guessing relatively specialized) have fewer extinctions in non-catastrophic times than more abundant species. I think the answer to what's going on is as follows:
1) in catastrophic situations survival of a species is related to how many individuals survive so the more individuals the better the species survives the catastrophe
2) in the non-catastrophic situation, specialized species don't have as much chance to speciate (ie produce competing populations) so by not succeeding in speciating, they avoid extinction from the point of view of taxonomists despite being unsuccessful in expanding or speciating.
3) in the non-catastrophic situation, successful, abundant species are more likely to result in producing closely related, competing species (ie the relatively successful species speciates) or to transform more rapidly into chronospecies since they aren't under as much selection pressure as less successful (specialized, not-so-abundant) species, so success translates taxonomically into extinction despite the fact that genetically they were very successful.
 

Maxx

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That makes a lot of sense. I'm embarrassed to say I didn't think about post catastrophe speciation producing the illusion of extinction.

It's a bit odd that the article doesn't mention it, but on the other hand, you have to be pretty into taxonomy in a pretty uncritical way to do Ordovician brachipods, I imagine.

Also, one always has to wonder whether one chunk of strata was worked on by a taxonomist with a splitting impulse while another chunk was worked over by a lumper and of course the original work on the strata might have been done a century ago.

On the other hand, I've seen studies that were extremely sophisticated in dealing with the statistics of populations in fossil strata so they may have somehow accounted for the speciation rates in relation to taxonomic levels -- also I haven't spent the 12 bucks to read the article in Paleobiology.
 

Alessandra Kelley

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That makes a lot of sense. I'm embarrassed to say I didn't think about post catastrophe speciation producing the illusion of extinction.

I love it when you talk like that.

I am so an art major, and not a sciency person, so please let me know if I'm talking rubbish, but ...

I wonder if the differing rates of extinction during catastrophic times and normal times has much to do with different mechanisms having a greater or lesser impact.

In catastrophic times, does random chance plays a bigger rôle than normal? What if, as it were, it's a dice roll whether each individual survives the mess, so the more individuals the better chance of a few rolling well and the species surviving.

And what if in more normal times random chance has less effect, so that slow climate change, say, or a shift in migratory patterns of food supplies, or some other big, slow change can have an overall effect, leaving a species high and dry almost at once.

Maybe the less abundant species that go extinct less often in normal times have more mechanisms to survive and find each other than more abundant, easy-to-find species.

Maxx's comments about speciation are also interesting, that an abundant species is likely to generate more competing descendant species, and thus possibly compete itself out of existence. Not something I had thought of, and definitely a good point.

By the way, just because I love cephalopods, I followed from that article to this one, which says that after the End-Permian Extinction of 252.6 million years ago, ammonoids (shell-squids) recovered their pre-extinction diversity 10-30 times faster than previously estimated, reaching the same diversity within only one million years.

It also says that cephalopods (octopuses and squids) barely squeaked through, with maybe only two or three species surviving, and only one that became ancestor to all modern cephalopods.

A slight sidetrack there, but I think it's neat.
 

Maxx

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blacbird

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A related issue, at least for some fossil species, I suspect: Great abundance of a single form doesn't necessarily mean a particularly good environment. In fact, it may well mean just the opposite: an environment of limited quality in which only a few species can live, but those can live in great abundance. More standard environments (marine environments in the case of brachiopods) tend to promote greater diversity of organisms, and the really specialized forms that preferred the oddball environments not only don't thrive, but may not be able to survive at all.

Specialized brine shrimp capable of dealing with hypersaline waters, such as Great Salt Lake, are there by the bazooglions. But an influx of fresh water that lowers salinity would probably kill them all.

caw
 

Maxx

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A related issue, at least for some fossil species, I suspect: Great abundance of a single form doesn't necessarily mean a particularly good environment. In fact, it may well mean just the opposite: an environment of limited quality in which only a few species can live, but those can live in great abundance. More standard environments (marine environments in the case of brachiopods) tend to promote greater diversity of organisms, and the really specialized forms that preferred the oddball environments not only don't thrive, but may not be able to survive at all.

Specialized brine shrimp capable of dealing with hypersaline waters, such as Great Salt Lake, are there by the bazooglions. But an influx of fresh water that lowers salinity would probably kill them all.

caw

Right so, as the article apparently shows:
a) specialized don't survive big catastrophes as well as abundant types (though since we can't see the original article I'm not sure how the accounted for types that are abundant but in environments with few other species)
b) BUT in normal times, abundance doesn't predict species survival over time

I think it is case B) that seems somewhat counter-intuitive until you take into account the fact that successful species tend to speciate more over time than unsuccessful ones.