Fonts

popmuze · Dec 30, 2005

It has apparently been established here that the best if not the only font acceptable to publishers and agents is New Courier 12 double spaced.

Although this font offens me aesthetically, I dealt with that by writing the draft in whichever font I pleased, lately settling on Arial Narrow double space (although I love Garamond because it's the old Rolling Stone Magazine font) and then just switching the whole document to Courier when it was done.

But what I found was that this pretty much doubled the page length of my manuscript (although the word count remained the same). The biggest problem comes when an agent asks for a partial. Now the perfect 50 page section I had created (20,000 words out of a 100,000 pages ms) with Arial Narrow turns out to be 94 pages. Where this section was a natural dramatic breaking point, the 50 pages of Courier (which amounts to about 10,000 words) winds up in the middle of a scene that doesn't end for quite a while.

The 100 page Arial Narrow section also works much better than the 100 page Courier. In fact, the 100 page Courier is actually my previous 50 page Arial Narrow. But most agents want to see 50 pages rather than 100.

The question is, what would be the difference if I just sent agents the Arial Narrow manuscript? Does type size and format outweigh content at this stage of the game?

blacbird · Dec 30, 2005

They will almost certainly HATE the Arial font, and will take it as an immediate indication that you don't know what you're doing. When they ask for 50 pages, they expect a standard submission font (Courier or TNR, nothing else). There's a very strong chance that the moment an agent opens an envelope and sees something like Arial Narrow font, nothing will get read, content be damned.

It doesn't matter a hoot what you use to compose in on your computer; I use Garamond, 14-point, at a 150% magnification, because I have bad eyes and that works best.

caw.

Cathy C · Dec 30, 2005

"The perfect 50 page section I had created" isn't what the agent/editor wants to see. They want to see whether you can still hold their attention while having it end in an inappropriate place!

Courier is the most easily read font for those with tired eyes (and whose eyes are more tired than a professional agent or editor?!) Times New Roman is a close second, and is what I use and send things in. Even my FINAL manuscripts are in TNR. The editor can change it to Courier at her end, because it doesn't email well. The punctuation gets screwy.

But please don't send Arial Narrow! You'll wind up in File 13, or with a stock rejection without a single glance.

Jamesaritchie · Dec 30, 2005

Font

And remember that reading isn't the only issue. Courier is a hundred times easier to edit, to use proofreaders' marks on, that is Times. Not all editors can change the fint because the majority of manuscripts at the majority of publishers are all edited in hard copy. There are no electronic versions.

There is no reason to use a font other than Courier 12. Ever, for any reason.

maestrowork · Dec 30, 2005

I agree. As I mentioned in my blog (http://itheauthor.blogspot.com/2005_10_01_itheauthor_archive.html), the agent/editor doesn't want to see if you have a "perfect scene break" at page 50. They want to see your writing style and your pacing and see if you can hook them and hold their interest and at the end of the 50 pages have them saying, "Oh uh, there are no more pages. I want to read what goes on after this..."

popmuze · Dec 30, 2005

This is very eye opening, to say the least.

Maybe I should re-send in Courier all the manuscripts I sent out that were rejected in Arial Narrow (Bookman Antigua was another favorite of mine). I've already changed the title of the book more than once. I could also change my name just to be on the safe side.

scarletpeaches · Dec 30, 2005

I type in whichever font I find most aesthetically pleasing on any given day and when I save, I do so twice - once in my chosen font and again in Courier 12pt, so I can just quickly double check where the dreaded '50 page' mark lands - and that's the version I submit. Nothing to stop you composing in your favourite font though, as long as you save another version in Courier 12pt for submitting.

popmuze · Dec 30, 2005

blacbird said:
They will almost certainly HATE the Arial font, and will take it as an immediate indication that you don't know what you're doing.)

Maybe my 12 published books that I mention on my query will help them overlook the font problem.

PattiTheWicked · Dec 30, 2005

I like to type my first draft in a 12 point Georgia font, because it's very relaxing on my eyes. Once the first draft is done, I convert the whole thing to an 11-pt Courier, and that's where it stays for all revisions and submissions.

Cathy C · Dec 30, 2005

Jamesaritchie said:
Not all editors can change the fint because the majority of manuscripts at the majority of publishers are all edited in hard copy.

Out of curiosity, do you send your initial manuscript AS a manuscript? In the mail? I've only been working with a few publishers so far, but they all want the manuscript sent electronically. The editors have been sending the initial edits as a Word document with Track Changes. The only time I've seen a print copy on ANY of the books is when I get the copy edits (and afterwards, a galley, of course).

eskkar · Dec 30, 2005

One good reason...

Jamesaritchie said:
And remember that reading isn't the only issue. Courier is a hundred times easier to edit, to use proofreaders' marks on, that is Times. Not all editors can change the fint because the majority of manuscripts at the majority of publishers are all edited in hard copy. There are no electronic versions.

There is no reason to use a font other than Courier 12. Ever, for any reason.

It's true there are only two fonts for submission: Courier & TNR. Agents that I've met with at writing conferences said either is acceptable.

But I think there's one very good reason to use (and submit) in TNR 12. That font is very close to what an actual purchaser will see when they pick up your book in a store. When I write, I like to see the words and sentences laid out on the page the way the reader will. It helps me think in a visual way that doesn't work in Courier.

I've submitted to plenty of agents (and authors) and I doubt if any that rejected or accepted me did so because the work was presented in TNR. Courier or TNR, they'e going to read the first few paragraphs. If they like what they read, they'll read on, and then the font doesn't matter.

Yes, it's easier to edit and critique in Courier, but an agent won't be doing either. She's just reading to see if your work grabs her (figurately speaking, that is). They're not going to make notes on your manuscript to accompany the rejection slip or acceptance phone call.

As for publishers, I've just finished revewing the copyeditor's marks on my 627 page manuscript, all done in TNR, without a comment from the publisher or editor or copyeditor about the font. They all had requested an electronic file, so they could have flipped it to whatever font they chose.

So, for once and for all, TNR or Courier, whatever suits your fancy. But, please, definitely not Ariel!

eskkar

victoriastrauss · Dec 30, 2005

Cathy C said:
Out of curiosity, do you send your initial manuscript AS a manuscript? In the mail? I've only been working with a few publishers so far, but they all want the manuscript sent electronically. The editors have been sending the initial edits as a Word document with Track Changes. The only time I've seen a print copy on ANY of the books is when I get the copy edits (and afterwards, a galley, of course).

I was with Avon, which became HarperCollins...for all 4 books I've done for them, everything has been on paper. I send a CD with the first draft and the revised ms., but they always want hard copy. All the editing and copy editing is done on the hard copy.

My mom is a freelance copy editor who occasionally does work for St. Martins Press...that's on paper also.

- Victoria

katiemac · Dec 30, 2005

As for publishers, I've just finished revewing the copyeditor's marks on my 627 page manuscript, all done in TNR, without a comment from the publisher or editor or copyeditor about the font. They all had requested an electronic file, so they could have flipped it to whatever font they chose.

It seems like those who prefer to submit in TNR are those who are submitting electronically. Now, I'm no professional, but I would think that if you're submitting on paper, rather than electronically, the actual manuscript really should be printed in Courier. The font type for the actual book is bound to change, anyway, so what it looks like initially shouldn't matter at all.

Courier, on the other hand, really is a lot easier to read and typos are more obvious because of the mono-spaced font. I tutor students at my university, and when some lament about misreading typos, I suggest they review their essays in Courier.

victoriastrauss · Dec 30, 2005

eskkar said:
But I think there's one very good reason to use (and submit) in TNR 12. That font is very close to what an actual purchaser will see when they pick up your book in a store. When I write, I like to see the words and sentences laid out on the page the way the reader will. It helps me think in a visual way that doesn't work in Courier.

I don't know if I agree that TNR looks like the print in a printed book, but I agree that it helps to see the text laid out as the reader will see it. For my final pass before I turn in a first draft, I convert the ms. to a print-like font such as Bookman Old Style, single-space it, and print it out. Just that small shift of perspective helps me catch a lot of stuff that I might not otherwise see.

- Victoria

maestrowork · Dec 30, 2005

My publisher wanted both electronic and hardcopy, but all the editing were done in Word documents (TNR font) -- its easier for them with the "track changes" features turned on. However, with submission, they still want hardcopies.

ChunkyC · Dec 30, 2005

As has been said here many times, send the submission version of your manuscript in whatever format the agent/publisher wants. No matter what that might be, it's guaranteed it will end up as something else in the final book. So what matters above all else is pleasing the person who is going to decide whether to buy your story. If they ask for crayon on parchment, send it that way.

Think of it like this: the person looking over your submission has probably been reading manuscripts for hours on end. The last thing you want is for them to be distracted by an unusual font or spacing. What you do want is for the font and spacing to be exactly what this person has been seeing all along so that the only thing that makes your manuscript stand out from the rest of the huge pile they've been wading through is the STORY.

This is not to say that a brilliant story absolutely won't sell if it's not formatted properly. But anything that might take this person's attention away from the story itself has the potential to cause them not to read enough of the submission to discover its brilliance.

James D. Macdonald · Dec 30, 2005

popmuze said:
Maybe my 12 published books that I mention on my query will help them overlook the font problem.

Who published them? When?

popmuze · Dec 30, 2005

James,
I'm sending you a private message. In Courier 12.

blacbird · Dec 30, 2005

popmuze said:
blacbird said:

They will almost certainly HATE the Arial font, and will take it as an immediate indication that you don't know what you're doing.)

Maybe my 12 published books that I mention on my query will help them overlook the font problem.

Click to expand...

Well, go ahead and do what you like. You asked the question, you got answers, and if you choose to ignore 'em, that's fine. Although it does make me wonder why you asked in the first place.

caw.

DivaNicoletta · Dec 30, 2005

I always do Times New Roman No.12, but I do like book antinqua. I HATE Arial and Helvitica.

silver_melusine · Dec 30, 2005

I like working with Courier New, but I didn't know about a certain font for the submission of novels. Thank you all for opening my eyes.

popmuze · Dec 30, 2005

blacbird said:
popmuze said:

Well, go ahead and do what you like. You asked the question, you got answers, and if you choose to ignore 'em, that's fine. Although it does make me wonder why you asked in the first place.

caw.

Click to expand...

No reason to shoot myself in the foot--or anywhere else. I just never knew the guidelines were so strict. On the other hand, last time I submitted stuff to an agent unsolicited, it was written on a typewriter (Smith Corona Electric).

eskkar · Dec 30, 2005

Still done on hard copy...

victoriastrauss said:
I was with Avon, which became HarperCollins...for all 4 books I've done for them, everything has been on paper. I send a CD with the first draft and the revised ms., but they always want hard copy. All the editing and copy editing is done on the hard copy.

My mom is a freelance copy editor who occasionally does work for St. Martins Press...that's on paper also.

- Victoria

HarperCollins still wants both the CD and the hard copy. But all the copyediting is done on the hardcopy, and in my case, in TNR. It seems a little strange to me to do all the copyediting by hand, but I just do whatever HC says.

eskkar

Cathy C · Dec 31, 2005

popmuze said:
blacbird said:

No reason to shoot myself in the foot--or anywhere else. I just never knew the guidelines were so strict. On the other hand, last time I submitted stuff to an agent unsolicited, it was written on a typewriter (Smith Corona Electric).

Click to expand...

Psst... Smith Corona electrics used the typeface Courier 12, which could be expanded to 10 pitch or reduced to 15 pitch.

silver_melusine said:

I like working with Courier New,

Click to expand...

Courier New IS Courier 12. Courier 12 is the old name, but people got confused with assuming it was the pitch size, when it was the NAME of the font. Hence, Courier New which is available as a scalable font. WordPerfect still calls it Courier 12 in the WP10 suite. But I see that WP12 has renamed it Courier New to match Word.

Sassenach · Dec 31, 2005

To people who complain about TNR or Courier being 'aesthetically unpleasing': tough. Most writing boards and listservs inevitably have discussions like this, and they're always the same.

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