Evil People

Vuligora · Dec 29, 2005

I'm curious. One of my favorite parts of writing is creating the main antagonist. What sorts of antagonists do you write about and what type of evil character personality do you find intimidating?

azbikergirl · Dec 29, 2005

Usually I write with the assumption that there's no such thing as evil, only conflicting goals. My antagonists are usually people with strong convictions and motivations. But so are my heros. The biggest thing that separates my antagonist from my hero is his degree of ruthlessness. My hero won't kill to get what he wants, but my antagonist generally will. Not that he's "evil," just that he justifies to himself that certain distasteful or immoral acts are sometimes necessary to achieve the greater good.

Vomaxx · Dec 29, 2005

azbikergirl said:
Not that he's "evil," just that he justifies to himself that certain distasteful or immoral acts are sometimes necessary to achieve the greater good.

I imagine that Stalin, Mao, & Hitler would all meet this criterion. And if they weren't evil, nobody is.

DaveKuzminski · Dec 29, 2005

Trust me, there are evil people out there. However, many of the antagonists are simply people willing to perform illegal or immoral acts in order to get to their goal, be it the girl next door or total global domination.

ChaosTitan · Dec 29, 2005

I prefer to write (and read about) antagonists that have what I'll coin as the "Darth Vader complex." They have committed, and do continue to commit terrible acts in the name of their goals/boss/higher power/whatever. But in the end, there is still a spark of good, a little glimmer of hope. Once in a while, even an attempt at redemption.

In my current novel, my main antagonist is bitter, ruthless, and a cold-blooded killer. He is also intensely loyal to his employer. Over the course of the novel, we get glimpses of *why* he has become this person, why he kills one of the men he kills, and we understand how he really sees the main characters.

There is also a scene later, near the end, that made my beta reader crazy. She emailed me back with a "Damn you, you made me *like* him!" :ROFL:

-Kelly

narselon · Dec 29, 2005

Like the rest of you, I like to write my antagonists as people who are not really evil. In the one I'm editting right now, the antagonists are in power and don't really cause despicable acts. There are a few injustices caused by them, but they don't realize it. They don't comprehend death or emotion and do as they were raised to think is best for the world.
Out of all the characters, the one that causes the most trouble and takes the most extreme measures is a protagonist. He just happens to be on the side that is implied as just. If he wasn't the driving force of the story, controlling the quest of the protagonist, he would probably be an antagonist.

nandu · Dec 30, 2005

Vuligora,

This is one question I've been interested in for a long time. I don't know whether you are familiar with the Hindu epic "Mahabharata" (by the way, I think it's a must-read for writers of epic fantasy). The beauty of the story is that the characterisation is so complex that almost any character can be made the protagonist. And it has been done by countless writers in India.

Of course, if you have absolute definitions of good/evil, then certain traits are likely to mark out the protagonist and antagonist. But then, I suppose you wouldn't have asked this question.

Nandu.

azbikergirl · Dec 30, 2005

nandu said:
Of course, if you have absolute definitions of good/evil, then certain traits are likely to mark out the protagonist and antagonist. But then, I suppose you wouldn't have asked this question.

I agree, and I'm glad you raised this point. IMHO, good vs. evil is too flat and uninteresting. I prefer to read and write stories whose characters are more complex than that, presenting morality as a continuum vs. black and white.

azbikergirl · Dec 30, 2005

Vomaxx said:
I imagine that Stalin, Mao, & Hitler would all meet this criterion. And if they weren't evil, nobody is.

They would be prime examples of antagonists in my stories, but I would not present them as "evil." I prefer to let the reader decide whether the antag meets their definition of "evil" while I concentrate on telling the story.

Lyra Jean · Dec 30, 2005

I believe that there are good guys and bad guys. But I always saw my protagonists as the character I'm writing the POV from for the story. The antagonist is the person against the protagonist.

So the protagonist doesn't have to be good and the antagonist bad. What about the book "Wicked" that's written from the perspective of the Wicked Witch of the West so her antagonist would be Dorothy. So is Dorothy the bad guy now and the Wicked Witch of the West the good guy?

Vuligora · Dec 30, 2005

I agree that the whole "black and white" thing is boring and uninteresting. What I find interesting is that many people keep saying something along the lines of " Well, this guy isn't really evil, he just do whatever he needs to do to achieve a goal." Well, in my opinion someone who kills, tortores, slaughters, destroys, explodes, ect. for the pupose of achieveing a goal that is soley for the antagonist's benefit and thus causes pain and suffering in innocent people is evil. I do believe in complex characterazation of anagonists. My villians have personalities, likes and dislikes, and ideas that become clear as needed. They aren't what I'd call "flat" antagonists, where you just hear about Mr. Whatever about to destroy the world and he killed a ton of people way back in the Age of...overdone, cliche, boring. It's when you get into the evil character's mind and he gets a couple of scenes all to himself where it becomes interesting. A book is nothing without an interesting antagonist.

veinglory · Dec 30, 2005

I far prefer villains with a goal in mind that they are pursuing with absolute cold expediencey. Preferably something othet than just seizing power or wealth--something more philosophical.

azbikergirl · Dec 30, 2005

Vuligora said:
A book is nothing without an interesting antagonist.

Absolutely! IMO, a character who's evil is uninteresting, but that's because of the way I define "evil." Readers who define "evil" differently than I do may well consider my antag evil (whereas I do not). Some of my characters certainly believe he's evil.

Since everyone defines "evil" differently, I prefer to avoid trying to define it for my reader and instead just let the antagonist's actions speak for themselves. Reader A may think he's evil, reader B may not, and that's fine with me.

To me (if you're curious), "evil" means to be incapable of feeling and expressing love (through one's actions). IOW, someone who feels only indifference toward others and would never do anything solely for the benefit of someone else. IMHO, very few people are truly evil. But, again, JMO.

Vuligora · Dec 30, 2005

Wow, that is a really interesting definition of evil and very original. I would say that my definition is different. My characters that I consider "evil" are quite capable of emotions including love, hate, passion, ect. What makes them evil is their uncareing behavior towards others, this incredible selfishness that makes other's pain irrelevant in their quest for power, or wealth, or whatever. It's not like their willing to kill people. More like they just are going to it, like breathing. They don't feel any remorse over making people scream or sob. It isn't a sacrafice or even a decision they bother thinking about making. The rest of the world doesn't matter. Another form of evil is the enjoyment of other peoples pain. If you like to hurt people, just to watch them squirm, then ,yeah, your evil.

MadScientistMatt · Dec 30, 2005

nandu said:
Of course, if you have absolute definitions of good/evil, then certain traits are likely to mark out the protagonist and antagonist. But then, I suppose you wouldn't have asked this question.

Nandu.

I'm not sure, even if you have absolute definitions of good and evil, that you need to make the antagonist evil. The antagonist just needs to have a compelling reason to oppose the hero. For example, if a war has broken out between two countries, one (or both) of the countries may have an evil ruler. But if your protagonist were a knight on one side, his actual antagonist could be an opposing knight who is noble and heroic.

A protagonist and antagonist pair don't need to be on opposite sides of good and evil. They just need to be on opposite sides of something that won't be reconciled peacefully.

JennaGlatzer · Dec 30, 2005

One of my problems when writing screenplays was that I kept making my antagonists (and/or the supporting characters) more interesting than the main character. Even if my main characters were flawed and quirky, they still got upstaged a lot. That was usually my big task in rewrites. This happen to you?

Shadow_Ferret · Dec 30, 2005

Guess I have a hard time understanding how good and evil, black and white can be boring since it's so much of real life. Is everyone afraid to make a judgement based on what we all accept as morally good social behavior? If the main protragonist veers away from that then he is evil. It's not cliché to say it, nor is it boring. My character is evil, no doubt. He has goals and he breaks the rules, kills people, and does whatever it takes to achieve those goals. In the context of the story, compared to my main protagonists, he is evil. He's manipulative, conniving, untrustworthy, and yet he is his own boss and gets weekends off. As ruler, the people hate him because he doesn't give a rat's patoot about them and keeps them in control through intimidation.

His brother (another main protag) who also has goals, at least treats the people with respect and a begrudging love. They love him because his murderous antics are secretive. He's a likable, sympathetic character, but I'd still call him evil.

DaveKuzminski · Dec 30, 2005

In a series I'm working on, there have been a progression of antagonists. Some merely tried to do their job only to be caught and dealt with. One managed to succeed to the top position in his country. Another found herself banished and established an opposing country which because of its weakness has picked on the same good country in hopes of convincing them that it's the other bad country that attacked them. One switches sides after his crew is deliberately, though mistakenly, killed by another ship from his country. Some function faithfully for their corrupt rulers. Others look at the motives of their leaders and switch sides. Another elevated to a position of power lets it go to his head.

Basically, they've been motivated by lust for power, greed, revenge, fear, and even mistakes in how they viewed the actions of others. As other motives come into play, it seems new antagonists get introduced.

Jaycinth · Dec 30, 2005

The evilest evil is that evil which people do while they are trying to convince the person or persons it is being done to that it is for their own good. (Or while trying to erase/adjust history to prove they were right.)

Shadow_Ferret · Dec 30, 2005

I thought we were talking fantasy here, not the current administration.

Pretend I didn't say that.

Perks · Dec 30, 2005

The most terrifying villians have an alien quality to them,a pathological disconnect that trumps empathy of any kind; the kind of villian who leaves you feeling like a bug under a microscope.

azbikergirl · Dec 30, 2005

Yes, like Hannibal Lechter for instance -- so complex and interesting. What a well-conceived villain he is -- horrific in the worst ways, but also likable.

DaveKuzminski · Dec 30, 2005

One of the most terrifying villains I've read or seen in fiction is Hans(?), the leader of the gang in Die Hard. He could rationalize everything and then boil it down into actions that would gain him what he wanted, no matter how many people had to die in the process and regardless of the fact that the actions actually seemed irrational at times.

Currently, Lex Luthor as shown in the Smallville TV series is intriguing to me. I see a lot of interplay taking place in setting up everything for the eventual conversion to bad guy.

Vuligora · Dec 30, 2005

I agree with the whole, "They say it's for your own good" thing. That always creeps me out and I don't think the villians saying that actually believe it. And of course, the whole uder a microscope thinf. Also very creepy and very much like my evil characters. I find intelligent villians the most intimidating.

Cathy C · Dec 30, 2005

See, this is really interesting to me, because I always prefer my bad guys to ENJOY being the bad guys. Evil for evil's sake. They aren't the hero in their own eyes. They're the VILLAIN, and it's fun. My villains are often closer to horror villains, where the goal is domination or annilation -- and sometimes both. The villain wants to rule the world and have the power of life and death over every living soul on the planet/galaxy. Sort of a Jabba the Hut personality type. Feed them to the sand monster, quick freeze them and use them as decorations -- put them in chains and make them dance for you, and then feed them to your pet!

I always PLAN that my villain is going to win. They have the means and the will to do so. So it takes something truly extraordinary for the good guy to succeed. It can't be a walk in the park to win. The villain doesn't make mistakes, so the hero or heroine has to draw on undiscovered reserves, like Dave's mention of Die Hard. The hero has to BECOME tougher or smarter, or get help. Many times, it takes more than one person to put down my villains.

One of these days, I'll succeed in letting the bad guy win. I doubt it'll get published, though...

Evil People

Bring it on...

I really do look like this.

Preditors & Editors

Around

is based on a true story.

I really do look like this.

I really do look like this.

Two years old now.

Bring it on...

volitare nequeo

I really do look like this.

Bring it on...

Empirical Storm Trooper

wishes you happiness

Court Jester

Preditors & Editors

Your Cuddly Sociopathic

Court Jester

delicate #!&@*#! flower

I really do look like this.

Preditors & Editors

Bring it on...

Ooo! Shiny new cover!