Strong Language?

B!tch isn't swearing over here, though. It's more of a 'oh heck' level of word. And let's face it, kids of Harry Potter's age and younger swear all the time. Am I condoning it? No, but you want books to be realistic, don't you? (If you ignore the centaurs and witches and the like...) I've noticed that Americans tend to be more censorious about verbal profanities, whereas Brits seem to think, oh well...that's the way people speak nowadays. The author doesn't have to approve of such language, just 'report' it so to speak, as long as it's true to the character.

Edited to add: I've noticed b!tch is beeped out in posts...something I think is very strange, after all...it's only a word, and a common one at that.

Puddle Jumper said:

How strong do you think language should be allowed for a young reader's novel?

One instance that I think of is in the third Harry Potter book where a character blurts out the slang for a female dog. When I read that it surprised me because I thought the book was for young readers and at least when I was in school, that was considered a very bad word.

So how strong do you think language should be allowed for a young readers book?

I'm currently in a dilemma where I feel the story I'm working on would target a younger audience but I have a character that in a scene, I feel would be provoked to the point of using bad language which children are taught not to use. Which I myself don't like the language or approve of it, but I feel it adds a sense of realism to the character.

So what length would you go for a young readers story to use such langauge? Would you simply skirt around it and write something like, "he cussed," or something to that effect?

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It depends upon the mood of the scene. How horrible is the provocation? And how old is the character? Indirectly referring to it can distance yourself, and break tension of the scene.

Are you speaking of profane words or vulgar words? Children tend to use vulgarity more than profanity. Also they tend to make up their own vulgarities.

But if you sincerely believe that no other word can capture the character, than use it, and see when the editor's say.

There's a quick trick to fix that...

He cursed (or even 'he cursed under his breath'). It sort of sweeps it under the rug but still recognizes that people swear.

I believe in almost no censorship unless it's really extreme. You're talking about one word and let's face it: people swear whether or not other people disagree. I'd say, be realistic. What's the point of reading a book if it isn't even true to it's own characers' reactions because of a single swear word? It can't be that bad. Chances are the kids reading the book have both seen and heard worse. Pretending life is all happy and perfect never got anyone anywhere. I'd say go with what needs to happen for the stories sake.

What the age level you're looking at? Personally, I always hated sugar-coating, but admittedly "He cursed," does work.

I don't remember any instances of 'b!tch' in Harry Potter, but that's probably just the American version. Still, in the latest installement, "slut" passed any editing, and Ron's character can often be caught about to say something rude before he's cut off.

I wouldn't use cursing in any normal situations or often, but only when the point of swearing is to show just how dire the argument or conversation is.

I've never heard anyone pushed to the edge who's stuck to using a word as mild as sh!t.

I think it depends on the age of the characters, the reading audience, and the situation. As the characters in Harry Potter grow older, they use more colorful language (and really, sweet Rupert Grint can make "Bloody hell!" sound just adorable). On the other hand, JKR knows where her bread is buttered, so it's unlikely we'll hear Hermione Granger dropping any f-bombs in the next installment.

As an aside, the meaning of words tends to vary. One of my favorite YA books is The Ghosts by Antonia Barber, which was written in England back in the 1970s, IIRC. A chidlren's book, yet at one point a character refers to another as a "slut." At first I was startled by this -- even as a child, because I knew darn well what "slut" meant at MY school -- but a British cousin of mine laughed it off, saying that where SHE lived, it meant an incompetent and lazy person, usually a servant.

The bottom line is, as the writer, you need to be true to your characters. If you're writing about characters who lace every sentence with expletives, chances are that your target audience is not going to be fourth graders anyway.

Puddle Jumper said:

What's the difference between vulgarity and profanity exactly? I've never really thought about it.

For the scene I have a divorced dad who's not a good father and has his two kids with him and his oldest is a 17 year old who is flat out annoying him and for the character and the situation I feel the tension building up to where he would turn to her and call her a little sh**. I'm just concerned it's too strong for a young readers audience.

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You could argue semantics and we could have dueling dictionaries, but my dictionary defines profane as irreverance to what is sacred. Vulgar as crudely indecent.

Another way to handle that is use a phrase that is almost a curse word. Remember the movie ET, where Elliot called his brother p3nis breath? Or was it head...I forget. Same effect, but not as crude.

I'm not all that much help because I love to curse - naughty words just feel good in the mouth and zinging around the room. It often feels like puncuation, and even kids are inclined towards a bold exclamation point now and again.

But, if you are looking to sell your work, you'll have to make sure it's warranted. (My mother is very religious and one of my character lets fly with 'GD'. I tried every way around it, because I knew she would read it, but in the end, that's what Grace said and I couldn't stop her.)

I know several parents off the top of my head who would avoid books where youngsters swear. And you have to be careful that the cursing isn't inadvertently funny. Little kids cussing is apt to leave me in stitches.

On the word "b!tch" - I remember watching teen movies on USA (channel) & being surprised that "Bite me" was censored out, but "b!tch" wasn't.

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Don't try to understand censoring. I've never been able to wrap my head around the approval of "a-s-s" but the censoring of "a-s-s****."

Puddle, if your character is 17, then the age group for your book is probably around 14-15. By that time, kids have certainly heard "sh!t" and know what it means. Also at that age, they'll probably appreciate you for not sugar-coating. They might not be brave enough to use the word themselves, but they sure as heck recognize when their older siblings (maybe even parents) do.

Of course, it's not a matter of what the kids want, is it? I say go for it, write it how you like. But keep in mind an editor who takes it on may want the word changed for publication.

If you're concerned, you can probably cover your use of the term fairly easily in the book, too, by using the narrative.

"You little sh!t!"

The word stung and tears welled up in my eyes. I knew Dad didn't mean what he had said, not really, and he would have made me wash my mouth out with soap for using it myself. Still, he was really angry and I wondered if I should take Janie out of the room in case he started swearing more.

Anyway, that's a pretty weak example (and a real sugarcoating) but you get the idea. It's something to think about, at least, especially if your protag would take offense to using the word himself.

Edited to add: I've noticed b!tch is beeped out in posts...something I think is very strange, after all...it's only a word, and a common one at that.

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The board wasn't originally censored, but awhile back some really nasty, heated flame wars broke out and Jenna opted for the "on-switch" for censoring to try to keep the backlash at a minimum. The language of posters here has always been mild, anyway, so the censoring wasn't interferring with normal posts. Just the ones that got a little wild.

slut slag proz b!tch bunny queenbee they all mean the same thing and EVERY teenage girl uses at least one of them! Cutting them is too unrealistic!

Several modern novels contain some very strong language: Mark Haddon's "The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Nighttime" and "Kiffo and the Pitbull" by Barry Jonesberg, but I'm not sure that "The Curious Incident..." was actually written for kids, but there is a certain care. Also, "Kiffo" has a warning on the first page and "The Curious Incident..." wasn't written specifically for kids.

The main thing to consider is the difference between speech and dialogue, and why dialogue is different. You can "urr" and "umm" all the time in speech, and you can swear like a trouper and it won't matter because the brain of the listener can filter out all the crap. But if you transfer this, word for word, to the page it will look nothing more than lazy, unskilled writing and will be a real pain to read.

You can apply this argument to adult fiction. Okay, there are different guidelines there; swearing isn't so much a problem, and it can be very effective if you confine it to a particular character or use it so sparingly that it comes as a real shock. Generally though, if we're talking about gangsters or rough teens, I think we can take it as read that everyother word is a curse without having to spell it out. If you do, you're likely to double your word count . At worst, though, you can just come across as a bad writer because there are so many better ways to convey emotions of angst, anger, rage, sorrow, fear than having the character swear. (A recent UK thriller was so far through the roof with profanity that it became unreadable because it was so silly. Yes, we know that villains swear, but can we get on with the story?)

Was Bill Sykes in Oliver Twist any less scary because he didn't swear seven times a second? Er... nope.

In addition to this, you might potentially cut your audience in half. Good, well written books are read in schools. Schools buy books in bulk. Important sales if you can get them.

On the whole, I think certain writers can pull it off, but if it's your first novel and you're pitching it to agents who deal with the childrens market, consider that profanity will stand out like it's in bold and double underlined. If you can justify it, fine, but it will come under close scrutiny.

Grey Malkin

Sage said:

"Sh!t" is what I use when pushed to the edge. I never use the F-word.

On the word "b!tch" - I remember watching teen movies on USA (channel) & being surprised that "Bite me" was censored out, but "b!tch" wasn't.

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Same hear. When I was growing up language was taken far more seriosuly than it is today. I remember the day when my friends and I thought we were being really, reallt daring because we started to say "****" - we were about 15!

I never use the F word and taught my kids not to use it. My son uses it all the time nevertheless. My daughter doesn't; but now and then it does slip out of her and is all the more effective for that. When it's uses all the time it loses it's meaning, and thus any kind of effect - it's virtually meaningless.
I know a family of rather low social standing and for them the F word is just a word - used by all the kids, even the 2 year olds. As scarlet says, these days, over here, it's just a word, more's the pity; it has no clout any more.

I like to keep dirty things dirty!

Schools do buy books with swear words. We read books in year 7 with sh!t and things like that in it at school!

I agree with aruna when she suggests the more you use a particular word, the less power it has.

I very much doubt that such a ladylike writer would say to increase our vocabulary and limit the use of each individual curse, we should all learn more swearwords, though!

scarletpeaches said:

I agree with aruna when she suggests the more you use a particular word, the less power it has.

I very much doubt that such a ladylike writer would say to increase our vocabulary and limit the use of each individual curse, we should all learn more swearwords, though!

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IN my latest masterpiece, one of them ain characters, near the end, says a very loud, very angry "F*** YOU!!!" I'm sure it comes out as quite a shock to readers....!

spike said:

Another way to handle that is use a phrase that is almost a curse word. Remember the movie ET, where Elliot called his brother p3nis breath? Or was it head...I forget. Same effect, but not as crude.

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It was scrotum breath. It was also all the rage in the playground the next day.


My thoughts on the issue:

Whether or not you use profanities will decide on how limited you are to your audience. High Schools will buy books with vulgar language, Middle schools may or may not, elementary (and in some areas they go as high as 7th/8th grade) won't. (And yes, there are always exceptions to the rule. But exceptions don't change the rule.)

If you're writing for the 15+ market, make the book true to life. Read "Skud" by Dennis Foon and see how a teen novel can be written with made up words that read the same as swears. Then read "First Stone" by Don Aker and imagine if it was written without any swearing at all. Yikes!

I just read a great hi/lo book that I thought I could sell to kids 10+ until I came across one, that is *one*, nasty little word in the entire book. Moved it up to 14+ with a caution to the adults who buy it. Shame, really.

If you're writing for the 12-15 year-old market, swearing will limit you. Most people buying kid's books are parents, grandparents, teachers and other adults. They'll open the book and flip it to that one page with that nasty four letter word.

If you're writing for the under 12 age bracket, leave out the swearing.

Hope that helps.

Canada James