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Two Different Types of Romance and Erotica

Thread starter Rina Evans
Start date Apr 16, 2012

Rina Evans

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Apr 16, 2012

#1

There's been a discussion going on in the YA threads that prompted this thought process for me, as well as some stuff on Goodreads.

It's about relationships in romance and erotica, and most importantly the controlling/domineering/aggressive love interest, and unhealthy relationships.

Books like that are billed as romances, erotic romances, YA romances etc. I think they don't really work as such. If I ever see a man taking advantage of a woman (or another man, etc) in any way, in a romance, it's a definite I'll dislike that book.

They're more... fantasies. Sure, all books are fantasies, but I mean the kind that we play out in our minds, but wouldn't like to happen in real life.

For a real example (sort of overused lately, I'm sorry), Fifty Shades of Grey is an erotic romance and if I judge it on that front, it fails (for me, personally) because it hits many had points, relationship wise. But as a complex fantasy, it sure works. Many people read it and love it for that aspect alone.

In the YA thread we also mentioned some examples of PNR like Hush, Hush which has an extremely aggressive and pushy love interest and all kinds of stalking, controlling, wants to kill the MC, and dub-con going on. And IMO that needs some different label than romance. But if it were labeled in a different way, I wouldn't have read it and bashed it, and I'm pretty sure there are tons of people who read it for the rape fantasy or control and that's completely fine, since my policy is no kink is bad kink. It's not a healthy relationship with all-time consensual sex, though.

Should there be a kind of distinction when publishing erotica and romance that includes a relationship that you'd let yourself be in, and a relationship that is pure fantasy fodder? And I don't mean that slapping a BDSM or erotic label makes any kind of difference, because those are, you know, safe, sane and consensual.... and then there are those that are really kind of not, but they're all jumbled together.

I hope I'm making sense.

I remember a long time ago on a blog of a MM erotic romance writer (I think), she had some a different page for non-con, dub-con and abusive relationships (things that push it outside of scene play) she'd written for titillation so her readers of 'regular' BDSM and erotic romance so the difference was marked. That's kind of what I mean.

Last edited: Apr 16, 2012

sunandshadow

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Apr 16, 2012

#2

I think, as a writer, if you have a sufficiently big pool of readers there's always going to be someone who is disturbed by something in your writing you thought was harmless or pleasant. (For example, I write incest. Romantic, consensual incest between adults; but if the plot calls for a sex scene where one of the two characters knows they are related, and opts not to tell the other, I've had readers regard that omission of information as a horrifying crime.) As a reader, I'd love if all books came with keyword tagging so I could avoid having such a high rate of books that I discover a few chapters in aren't really my cup of tea. But if I were a publisher I'd think, people look at keywords as a reason not to buy a book, and retailers look at keywords as a reason not to sell a book. I'd be dumb to give anyone any reasons not to buy what I'm selling.

Brindle Chase

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Apr 16, 2012

#3

There is certainly alot of mis-labeling going on. Honestly, I think far too many authors and even smaller publishers have trouble understanding genres. There is a distinct difference between an erotic romance and an erotica. As well, often people confuse love stories with romances. Readers have trouble as well, since the lines have been misrepresented long enough, that most can barely tell. However, they still know what they like and what they do not... so the mislabeling scores some sales it otherwise wouldn't, but savvy readers remember the author, and not in a good way.

There is also alot of intentional mislabeling as a result. By appealing to a broader audience, by calling your Sado/masochist BDSM as an erotic romance, you can pick up some extra sales. But I think in the long run, this is dangerous for an author's career.

Additionally, by adding "kink" labels, is applying a sort of shock-n-awe marketing approach. By clearly labeling things like non-con, rape fantasy and the like, it gives the book a "forbidden" appeal that some can't resist. But here, I think this only works in niches. Where it entices some readers, it shuns readers like me... which is why I think the previous tactic is more common. The more you corner your book into a very specific niche through labels, the smaller your potential audience.

Personally, I use the honest labeling method. If there is kink, I label it, not for marketing, but for the reader to make an educated purchase or pass over. Ultimately, I think that will serve me in the long run. My readers know what they will get with my books and they can count on my labels being accurate, rather than tricks to get you to buy my books.

IMHO... sorry if I went too far on a tangent. I tend to do that! *lol*

kuwisdelu

Revolutionize the World

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Apr 16, 2012

#4

Brindle Chase said:
There is also alot of intentional mislabeling as a result. By appealing to a broader audience, by calling your Sado/masochist BDSM as an erotic romance, you can pick up some extra sales. But I think in the long run, this is dangerous for an author's career.

Well, there's no reason you can't have a BDSM erotic romance. The question as it pertains to the OP is whether it's consensual, healthy BDSM or not.

veinglory

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Apr 16, 2012

#5

I think using any one standard of what is "healthy" would be a disaster. It's fiction, not self-help. Even should it exist, such labeling should not relate only to romances for women as if only they are likely to have their fragile minds unbalanced bu transgressive storylines.

I think most readers have a pretty good idea of what they are getting based on blurbs. And of the book disappoints of disturbs, they can stop reading. This is equally true for other similar cases like torture porn, kink, sexual violence, extreme violence, child abuse etc.

Brindle Chase

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Apr 16, 2012

#6

kuwisdelu said:
Well, there's no reason you can't have a BDSM erotic romance. The question as it pertains to the OP is whether it's consensual, healthy BDSM or not.

Very true. Albeit, rare. A romance can be of any kind, however it must adhere to the genre's parameters to qualify as a romance. Most BDSM I've ever encountered, has been erotica, and a few love stories, but none were erotic romance. But I confess, my sampling is limited.

sunandshadow

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Apr 16, 2012

#7

In my experience it's actually pretty common to find BDSM elements in science fiction and fantasy erotic romances. (Usually mild stuff, like spankings and tying people up, but the control/discipline/pain thing is noticeably there, right alongside the romance elements, and the dom-ness of the hero is considered part of why the heroine finds him sexy and why he is right for her.) This is to my annoyance, because I don't have much interest in BDSM, but I've seen what I consider successful examples of real romances that are BDSM romances.

kuwisdelu

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Apr 16, 2012

#8

veinglory said:
I think using any one standard of what is "healthy" would be a disaster. It's fiction, not self-help.

True, I would have liked to be able to simply say "fiction which is what it purports to be," but it sounds like Brindle didn't think you could have BDSM in romance, which doesn't make any sense.

I think many people who criticize the less-than-healthy relationships in many erotic romances are missing the point. As you point out, it's not self help, and the point of fiction isn't to give us "good examples" to live up to or anything like that. I think it's more a matter of whether acknowledgement of these problems ever comes up in the actual plot.

To break it down, we could have, for example, a novel with:

1. A non-abusive relationship that is portrayed positively.
2. An abusive relationship that is not acknowledged and portrayed positively.
3. An abusive relationship that is acknowledged for what it is, is not portrayed positively, but is still romanticized.
4. An abusive relationship that is acknowledged for what it is, and condemned.

(Replace "abusive relationship" with whatever else... stalking, assault, rape, etc.)

I think (2) is what most people have a problem with. It functions as a fantasy, and naturally serves a purpose for those who wish to read it. But people looking for (1) don't like getting (2). (And 3 and 4 rarely end up on the romance shelf anyway.)

Last edited: Apr 16, 2012

kuwisdelu

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Apr 16, 2012

#9

Brindle Chase said:
Very true. Albeit, rare. A romance can be of any kind, however it must adhere to the genre's parameters to qualify as a romance. Most BDSM I've ever encountered, has been erotica, and a few love stories, but none were erotic romance. But I confess, my sampling is limited.

There's nothing at all about BDSM that would keep it from qualifying as a romance. Unless you're confusing BDSM with something else.

Brindle Chase

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Apr 16, 2012

#10

sunandshadow said:
In my experience it's actually pretty common to find BDSM elements in science fiction and fantasy erotic romances. (Usually mild stuff, like spankings and tying people up, but the control/discipline/pain thing is noticeably there, right alongside the romance elements, and the dom-ness of the hero is considered part of why the heroine finds him sexy and why he is right for her.) This is to my annoyance, because I don't have much interest in BDSM, but I've seen what I consider successful examples of real romances that are BDSM romances.

I've seen a few with BDSM elements in them, but I don't consider a book BDSM because there is a little spanking involved, mild restraint or the hero is alpha. A BDSM relationship is much more complex IMHO. But yeah, I've come across a few with BDSM elements. I wrote one with spanking in it, but its an erotic romance, although I felt it best to give a "mild BDSM" warning because of the spank-play involved.

kuwisdelu

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Apr 16, 2012

#11

Brindle Chase said:
A BDSM relationship is much more complex IMHO.

Meh, a relationship with BDSM doesn't have to be any different from any other relationship. Are we making a distinction a relationship with BDSM in the bedroom and a "BDSM relationship"? I would think romances about both would qualify as "BDSM romances."

Brindle Chase

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#12

kuwisdelu said:
Meh, a relationship with BDSM doesn't have to be any different from any other relationship. Are we making a distinction a relationship with BDSM in the bedroom and a "BDSM relationship"? I would think romances about both would qualify as "BDSM romances."

As for making a distinction between the two, I would. From what I've learned about BDSM relationships, there is a significant difference between couples who play around with restraint and spanking, and a BDSM couple. I'm far from an expert though. What I can say for sure is, of all the publishers I've ever dealt with, BDSM, even as a romance, is a sub-genre with specific expectations that go beyond playful spanks and mild restraint. I'm just saying... *shrugs* For me... I see a difference. Anywho, that's my two cents... worth maybe half that. =oP

kuwisdelu

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Apr 16, 2012

#13

Brindle Chase said:
As for making a distinction between the two, I would. From what I've learned about BDSM relationships, there is a significant difference between couples who play around with restraint and spanking, and a BDSM couple.

Yes, I'd say there is a difference between lifestylers and people who keep the dynamics totally constrained to the bedroom, but I think you're perceiving the difference in terms of what activities they actually engage in, which isn't really the case. At least to me it certainly isn't. Going beyond spanks and restraints is not the difference you're looking for, is what I'm saying.

Brindle Chase

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#14

kuwisdelu said:
Yes, I'd say there is a difference between lifestylers and people who keep the dynamics totally constrained to the bedroom, but I think you're perceiving the difference in terms of what activities they actually engage in, which isn't really the case. At least to me it certainly isn't. Going beyond spanks and restraints is not the difference you're looking for, is what I'm saying.

I think I meant more "occasional". I don't consider my relationship to be BDSM because on occasion, I might give her a playful swat or two... which is more or less what I encounter in romance books I've read versus what I've read of what I consider BDSM, which by my understanding of the two genres, were erotica, rather than erotic romance. But again, my exposure to books with BDSM in them, is limited. I avoid them where labeled as such. But I see what you mean. Perhaps my experience is more polarized by the limited samples I've encountered. I don't think anyone would confuse the BDSM I've read for romance nor would they confuse the romance I've read for BDSM. Anywho... I think if there is enough element of anything outside the normal for said genre, whatever it may be, a label is, at least for me, greatly appreciated as a reader.

veinglory

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Apr 16, 2012

#15

There is certainly genre romance with lifestyle BDSM. Lila Dubois comes to mind.

sunandshadow

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Apr 16, 2012

#16

I think that its a very common element of romance for the main character's love of the love interest to be partly based on the main character having some kind of desire for escapism that the love interest character can fulfill. It might be that the MC is poor and the LI rich; that the MC is human/earthly/white and the LI is inhuman/alien/magical/exotic; that the MC's life is safe and boring and the LI's life is dangerous and exciting; or it might be that the MC wants to submit and/or feel pain and the LI is dominating and/or wants to inflict pain. So that's why I think BDSM erotica is compatible with romance; because it's about finding an ideal mate, which is the core desire around which romance exists, and a well-matched BDSM couple can live as happily ever after as anyone else. That doesn't mean I don't find myself wishing an MC who is treated in a way I would feel was abusive would grow a pair and kill the abusive L.I. But that's just because I'm not a masochist, I can't really sympathize with a masochistic MC or appreciate the type of wish fulfillment the author is trying to deliver, and I'm not in the target audience of that kind of story.

Katie Elle

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Apr 17, 2012

#17

Brindle Chase said:
Very true. Albeit, rare. A romance can be of any kind, however it must adhere to the genre's parameters to qualify as a romance. Most BDSM I've ever encountered, has been erotica, and a few love stories, but none were erotic romance. But I confess, my sampling is limited.

Not at all rare, it's a significant genre. Maya Banks "Sweet" series comes to mind and is from Berkley. BDSM is what a couple does, romance is whether it fits into the fall in love and develop a relationship.

Actually the big trope in BDSM erotic romance is a mirror to what's being discussed: whether it's all about sex or whether the other character is falling in love like s/he is (and obviously being romance they are).

Brindle Chase

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Apr 17, 2012

#18

Katie Elle said:
Not at all rare, it's a significant genre. Maya Banks "Sweet" series comes to mind and is from Berkley. BDSM is what a couple does, romance is whether it fits into the fall in love and develop a relationship.

*nod nod* but just for argument's sake. Berkeley classifies that series as erotic romantic suspense, and Barnes & Nobles categorizes it as erotica... See my point?

kuwisdelu

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#19

Brindle Chase said:
*nod nod* but just for argument's sake. Berkeley classifies that series as erotic romantic suspense, and Barnes & Nobles categorizes it as erotica... See my point?

Not really. People can always disagree about what genre a given novel "really" is, whether it has BDSM in it or not.

Brindle Chase

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#20

kuwisdelu said:
Not really. People can always disagree about what genre a given novel "really" is, whether it has BDSM in it or not.

Totally agree. I think we all see things differently. The world is many shades of grey, not just black and white, IMHO. But I guess when I see a publisher of romance, who knows what the genre is and helps define the industry understanding of it decides to categorize their own book as not romance... it sorta leads me to agree with them, particularly when other industry mainstays like Barnes & Noble, among others, also don't consider it romance... but certainly, there will be others for who it fits what they think is romance. Definitely not disagreeing with that.

Maryn

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Apr 18, 2012

#21

I'd just like to take a moment to tip my hat to all participants for keeping this discussion not just civil but courteous and open-minded. We've ventured into these waters before, but as I recall it, the sea monsters came out.

Maryn, curiously nautical

jennontheisland

the world is at my command

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Apr 18, 2012

#22

Brindle Chase said:
*nod nod* but just for argument's sake. Berkeley classifies that series as erotic romantic suspense, and Barnes & Nobles categorizes it as erotica... See my point?

Yes. It's a marketing thing.

Categorizing something as erotica or erotic romance warns readers that there may be things in there that are taboo. It doesn't necessarily mean that the story is erotic or graphic. It's kinda like movies being rated R because of boobs or one instance of "fuck".

Categorizing something as erotica or erotic romance can also be a boon for a writer in terms of sales. I've heard from quite a few authors that their more graphic works and their kinkier works are always their best sellers. Take an otherwise typical romance, add one same sex kiss (because that will often get the ero- slapped on a story) or one little smack on the bum, and you boost your sales by 50% because suddently it's "erotic" and not just romance.

No, none of this has anything to do with the story, the relationships, whether or not it's BDSM in the bedroom, or as lifestyle. It's all about labels, perceptions, and marketing tools. Because sex and kinky sex are marketing tools.

Brindle Chase

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Apr 18, 2012

#23

jennontheisland said:
Yes. It's a marketing thing.

Categorizing something as erotica or erotic romance warns readers that there may be things in there that are taboo. It doesn't necessarily mean that the story is erotic or graphic. It's kinda like movies being rated R because of boobs or one instance of "fuck".

Categorizing something as erotica or erotic romance can also be a boon for a writer in terms of sales. I've heard from quite a few authors that their more graphic works and their kinkier works are always their best sellers. Take an otherwise typical romance, add one same sex kiss (because that will often get the ero- slapped on a story) or one little smack on the bum, and you boost your sales by 50% because suddently it's "erotic" and not just romance.

No, none of this has anything to do with the story, the relationships, whether or not it's BDSM in the bedroom, or as lifestyle. It's all about labels, perceptions, and marketing tools. Because sex and kinky sex are marketing tools.

*nod nod nod* Definitely that too!! I go back to my original point, in that I see alot of what I consider mislabeling. People abuse tags/categories/etc... to boost sales. Either outright lying about the content of their books, or exaggerating. My one book with spanking in it was a painful deliberation on how to label the book. IMHO, its not a BDSM romance. It's a contemporary erotic romance, with some spanking in it. The BDSM was light/mild and not a condition nor element of the romance (which is the plot, as it must be in order to be a romance). But we added the tag because it wasn't a single swat to the ass. Even if the BDSM elements didn't dominate the sex scenes, there was enough to warrant the tag as a warning. However, we categorized it by genre definitions, as a cont. erot. romance. it would have been untruthful, again IMHO, to categorize it as a BDSM romance. BDSM fans would've been, for the most part, severely disappointed I think, even feeling betrayed for having bought the book, thinking it was a BDSM romance when it really was not.

thethinker42

Abnormal Romance Author

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Apr 18, 2012

#24

Brindle Chase said:
Very true. Albeit, rare. A romance can be of any kind, however it must adhere to the genre's parameters to qualify as a romance. Most BDSM I've ever encountered, has been erotica, and a few love stories, but none were erotic romance. But I confess, my sampling is limited.

There's plenty of BDSM erotic romance out there that really is. I have three such titles myself. It's very, very common.

dangerousbill

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Apr 18, 2012

#25

sunandshadow said:
I think, as a writer, if you have a sufficiently big pool of readers there's always going to be someone who is disturbed by something in your writing you thought was harmless or pleasant.

This is a major difficulty for erotica writers. I find that there is no such thing as an overall erotica market. There is a market for each subtype that tend to be exclusive to each:
- romantic erotica closed-bedroom door,
- open-bedroom door,
- explicit male/female erotica,
- no-frills erotica (porn),
- BDSM (male dominant or female dominant or both),
- rape fantasy,
- female/female
- male/male female author,
- male/male male author.
- etc on and on ad nauseum

It's unusual for a reader of one subgenre to be much interested in other subgenres, even closely-related ones. I write 'light femdom', which has no cages, torture chambers or secret castles full of sadistic women. It generally revolves around a genuine love relationship where the woman is sexually and domestically dominant. It turns out to be an extremely tiny market.

No other genre has these problems. A reader who likes good detective fiction won't care much if the protag is a cop, a private detective, a woman, or a priest. But erotica readers are looking for sexual stimulation, and the spectrum of things that turn people on is very broad.

I've tried to avoid this trap by building the erotic elements into a more conventional genre, with no luck. Beta readers, even good ones, get back to me with comment like, "You've got to make up your mind. Is this a sex book or a spy story? It doesn't work as both."

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