implicitly problem

Jinbei · Mar 22, 2012

I have a problem about implicitly.

I love chekov gun and red herring.
but because of that, people think that my story is full of plotholes
whereas if they pay attention about the lines before the "plothole",
it was not a plothole at all.

is there some technique to learn about how to use chekov gun and red herring?

or it's just the reader that only looking for mistakes and too hasty in conlcuding something?

danrupe · Mar 22, 2012

+1

When I tried to use Chekov's gun I was accused of being "too clever"... I was happy until I found out he wasn't being complimentary. LOL So I think I did something wrong, too.

SomethingOrOther · Mar 22, 2012

implicitness

The question a bit vague. I'm not sure exactly what you mean. In general, with story firearms and fish, you have to address and rein in the alternative "Why didn't he or she do that [thing any reasonably intelligent person would do] instead?" possibilities. If MC has a Chekhov's gun hanging from his wall, and it eventually gets used, don't have the MC grapple off a dangerous intruder with his hands at some point.

One of the biggest beginners' traps is trying too hard to get really basic stuff across implicitly. Roundabout ways to convey that the lead character is sad, that one character hates another, basic info required for the coherence of plot/character, etc. The ultimate abuse of the Show don't Tell rule. Don't withhold basic information or present it in an oversubtle way just because it seems crafty.

blacbird · Mar 22, 2012

SomethingOrOther said:
One of the biggest beginners' traps is trying too hard to get really basic stuff across implicitly.

Next to simple grammatical errors, the single biggest problem I see in beginner writing is exactly the opposite: A desperate need to explain every minuscule meaningless detail.

caw

SomethingOrOther · Mar 22, 2012

blacbird said:
Next to simple grammatical errors, the single biggest problem I see in beginner writing is exactly the opposite: A desperate need to explain every minuscule meaningless detail.

caw

The man walked in and said, "I'm the one who slept with your wife." I had been waiting for this moment forever.

His math-nerd spectacles had a slight silver tint. His crocs shined as if they were polished an hour ago, maybe two. His sweater vest looked like a Christmas present no one wanted, and under it he had a purple dress shirt. His watch looked heavy, and I recognized it wasn't a Rolex--it could have been a knock-off model, though. Three hairs sprouted from the mole on his cheek. The stain on his khakis looked like it came from fruit punch. His hair was graying. He had brown eyes, a cleft chin, plucked metrosexual eyebrows, and wide shoulders that hinted at a past in football.

I shot him.

THE END

HoneyBadger · Mar 23, 2012

Chekhov's gun is just another way of saying: if you mention something, it needs to be relevant. Red herrings are a little trickier, because there's a fine line between a little artful misdirection, and tricking and frustrating your reader. Don't make your reader feel stupid.

On a bigger scheme than the gun specifically, if you say your MC drive a Porche, that Porche had better further the plot or develop her character. If your MC has a supernatural ability to start fires with his mind, saying "MC's heart was aflame," in chapter 1 isn't sufficient when you don't mention it again until the climax, and boom, he blows everyone up.

I have a whole ton of red herrings and Chekhov's guns in my novel, and so far betas get it. If I mention babies crying in the first sentence, you betchya I'm gonna mention it again, and you betchya it's important. Likewise, it's not clear, deliberately, who the Big Bad is until the end, but if you force red herrings too much, your reader will feel cheated.

I like to just be all, "Here's what the situation is, and here's what's maybe going on, but, you know... this might be going on, too. Think about that, reader." But since I've built both options up, the reader (so far!) isn't all "Whaaaaa?!" when they discover what really happened.

PPartisan · Mar 23, 2012

People have varying levels of tolerance for pragmatism in novels, so if you include guns and <>< you'll have a tough time gauging whether it's your writing that's lacking or the reader's preferences.

If you PM me the section you're talking about then I'll look it over, as I generally say I have a high threshold for this kind of thing. I like it most when an author gives me the bare minimum to work with and I figure out the details as I go, so, if I'm not getting it I could make some suggestions.

BradCarsten · Mar 23, 2012

I'm a little confused....

A plot hole, or plothole, is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot

Chekhov's gun is a literary technique whereby an apparently irrelevant element is introduced early in the story whose significance becomes clear later in the narrative.

A red herring is a clue or piece of information which is intended to be misleading, or distracting from the actual issue

So how would a chekov's gun or a red herring be mistaken for a plot hole?

Jonathan Dalar · Mar 23, 2012

A good example of how not to do this is the movie The Bone Collector. It's a who-dunnit kind of movie, with all kinds of possible suspects running around. The problem is, after weeding out red herring after red herring, you're left with the real answer in the end, and it's a tremendous letdown.

When the story is finished, your readers should be saying "I can't believe it was him!" not "Who the eff is this chucklehead?"

LillyPu · Mar 23, 2012

For me, it's a matter of once I've got the plot down and the story writ, during the revision, I go back and lay down the breadcrumbs, subtle hints and things to shore up the plot, so when the aha! moment hits the reader, they say, "But of course!" Or at least they SHOULD. If not, they've been a lazy reader--

LillyPu · Mar 23, 2012

Jonathan Dalar said:
When the story is finished, your readers should be saying "I can't believe it was him!" not "Who the eff is this chucklehead?"

Hmmm. Interesting, see I think the reader should've at least, at some moment suspected "the him" but never the effing chucklehead--which is the same thing as a bomb suddenly exploding when no one ever even knew there was a bomb, i.e. gun.

To never even suspect the culprit would be a flaw for me. But maybe that's a stipulation in mysteries? I dunno.

Cyia · Mar 23, 2012

Chekov's gun isn't about being clever. It serves 2 purposes:

1. You only mention what's relevant to the story, meaning a shotgun over the fireplace will either be fired at some point, or at the very least serve to illustrate how your character is (or was) a hunter at some point. Otherwise, said firearm might as well be a macrame banana.

2. It makes sure that your climactic scenes make sense, meaning, you don't suddenly pull a shotgun off the mantle in a house belonging to someone who doesn't believe in owning guns.

The key is to relay the information without the "Wink, wink. Nudge, nudge. Did you catch that important detail right there?" sort of thing.

LillyPu · Mar 23, 2012

ave said:
I'm a little confused....
So how would a chekov's gun or a red herring be mistaken for a plot hole?

If you introduce a gun, you need to make sure to fire it. A red herring is a gun never fired. The gun isn't the plot hole (or the red herring). The plot holes happen when there hasn't been sufficient breadcrumbs laid down for the gun to be fired. That's how I see it anyway.

danrupe · Mar 23, 2012

LillyPu said:
If not, they've been a lazy reader--

Does the genre of the book tip readers off to these techniques? Is using it in a fantasy/sci-fi, instead of a mystery, a bad thing? Are the readers getting caught unaware because they aren't looking for subtle details?

Cyia said:
Chekov's gun isn't about being clever.

Assuming you are responding to my comment. Oh, I know. I wasn't trying to be clever. The person who made the comment said he caught all the references in the second reading, but not the first. He wasn't expecting it the first time.

quicklime · Mar 23, 2012

LillyPu said:
Hmmm. Interesting, see I think the reader should've at least, at some moment suspected "the him" but never the effing chucklehead--which is the same thing as a bomb suddenly exploding when no one ever even knew there was a bomb, i.e. gun.

To never even suspect the culprit would be a flaw for me. But maybe that's a stipulation in mysteries? I dunno.

Ever see "Frailty"? Or "The Sixth Sense"?

you won't ever fool everyone, but part of the twist in both of those was that by the end you're going "holy shiiiit, I never thought...." and then, as you go back through the little clues (they both spoon-feed the clues to you in flashbacks, even), you realize it was there all along.

Now, there is a difference between that and a plot hole or pulling the bad guy out your ass at the very end....there was a trail of breadcrumbs all along, just so subtle you missed them moving forward.

For the OP, if people are saying you have plot holes, you MAY have bad betas, but probably you are neglecting to leave these breadcrumbs--as said, checkhov's gun and red herrings aren't about being able to just lie to your reader and pull something out of thin air, they are about the art of misdirection (mainly in red herrings) and making sure to only have the things that truly matter (Checkhov, as I understand it, is almost the antithesis of what you are worried about; he was saying you can't just have a gun show up from nowhere, in addition to the fact if there is a gun plainly shown, it should have some significance)....

LillyPu · Mar 23, 2012

danrupe said:
Does the genre of the book tip readers off to these techniques? Is using it in a fantasy/sci-fi, instead of a mystery, a bad thing? Are the readers getting caught unaware because they aren't looking for subtle details?

I was kidding about the 'lazy readers' btw.

No reader should have to LOOK for details, subtle or otherwise. And no, 'the gun' theory is for all genres, IMO. I write literary fiction, and I've got a gun in it. I was just wondering if mysteries, like romance, have to have certain things in it for it to be accepted into the genre. I don't even know if that's the case for romance, either; just seems I've heard it somewhere.

LillyPu · Mar 23, 2012

quicklime said:
Ever see "Frailty"? Or "The Sixth Sense"?

you won't ever fool everyone, but part of the twist in both of those was that by the end you're going "holy shiiiit, I never thought...." and then, as you go back through the little clues (they both spoon-feed the clues to you in flashbacks, even), you realize it was there all along.

I've seen The Sixth Sense, and the 'reveal' was definitely a holy shiiiiiit moment--in a good way. I kind of refer to that in my post #10. But that's a movie. I like to use 'book' examples when talking about novel writing, because movies can do a lot of things books can't, and vice versa.

Jonathan Dalar · Mar 23, 2012

quicklime said:
Ever see "Frailty"? Or "The Sixth Sense"?

you won't ever fool everyone, but part of the twist in both of those was that by the end you're going "holy shiiiit, I never thought...." and then, as you go back through the little clues (they both spoon-feed the clues to you in flashbacks, even), you realize it was there all along.

And that's as it should be. In the end, right after smacking yourself and saying "holy shiiiit, I never thought..." you should say, "I should have seen that from the beginning!"

That's where those stories did it right, in comparison to The Bone Collector, where you just get some schmuck stuffed into the he-done-it role, when he was implausible from the beginning that it was him. Of course, that is if you actually remembered who he was, or that he had been in the movie earlier at all.

veinglory · Mar 23, 2012

I am also a bit unclear, the gun and herring are kind of polar opposites. So when you combine them it basically becomes a lot of stuff happening only some of which is ultimately important--which is what happens in most stories?

quicklime · Mar 23, 2012

LillyPu said:
I've seen The Sixth Sense, and the 'reveal' was definitely a holy shiiiiiit moment--in a good way. I kind of refer to that in my post #10. But that's a movie. I like to use 'book' examples when talking about novel writing, because movies can do a lot of things books can't, and vice versa.

'cept none come to mind right now...

Every Dead thing had it to a degree, but not nearly as well imho

quicklime · Mar 23, 2012

Jonathan Dalar said:
And that's as it should be. In the end, right after smacking yourself and saying "holy shiiiit, I never thought..." you should say, "I should have seen that from the beginning!"

.

exactly

for the op, apart from the juxtaposition of chekhov and herrings, which are different, this is the problem--if your readers aren't doing the above, you need to determine if they are failing you, or you are failing them.

Generally, that means you are failing them. Not always, I"ve heard some beta horror stories, but usually if there is a communication breakdown, the onus goes on the writer.

implicitly problem

Jinbei

a baby shark

danrupe

Think think think...

SomethingOrOther

-

blacbird

SomethingOrOther

-

HoneyBadger

terribly loud, emotionally distant

PPartisan

<><'ing for compliments

BradCarsten

practical experience, FTW

Jonathan Dalar

Science fiction, horror and fantasy

LillyPu

LillyPu

Cyia

Rewriting My Destiny

LillyPu

danrupe

Think think think...

quicklime

all out of fucks to give

LillyPu

LillyPu

Jonathan Dalar

Science fiction, horror and fantasy

veinglory

volitare nequeo

quicklime

all out of fucks to give

quicklime

all out of fucks to give