A discussion about current trends in publishing

On the agency model:
http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/012168.html

On Amazon in general: With respect to ebooks from other publishers, Amazon's costs a minuscule. They have server costs, and the associated databases. I'd guess it actually costs Amazon .25 or less to sell an ebook.

But for a commercial publisher, the ebook shares all the upfront costs of a print book: acquisition, editing, proofing, production, design, cover, distribution, licensing, etc. All the costs that happen before a file is sent to be turned into a printed book, or an ebook, or both.

A hardcover costs the publisher a couple - three bucks, a paper back somewhere between one and two dollars to be printed, bound, and drop shipped or, increasingly rarely, warehoused.

The ebook isn't a whole lot less in terms of what it costs the publisher.

So while Amazon doesn't care if the cover price is 5.00 or 10.00, a publisher--who may have a hard cover or softcover available too, still has to recoup all the upfront costs (like the author's advance, often the largest single line-item in the costs of making a book).

An ebook that is 1 MB or 250 doesn't really cost Amazon much more either way to sell and get to the buyer. So they're not really interested in the price--they just want to sell quantity. And they don't care what book, either; it's all the same to them.

But the publisher and the author are paid based on the price of the book. And for both of them, that price represents actual costs in money, time and labor.

yes, generally it cost more for to print a book, that's why the price from traditional publishers is always higher. Amazon offer a free market which you can pretty much throw anything on it as long as you stay within their guidelines.

Teasha said:

It is fair and a free market practice for self-publishers to intentionally undercut the prices of the commercially published in order to try and attract consumers or does it de-value all writers to offer cheaper services?

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Ask three people, I suspect you'll get three different opinions.

But it's not just self-publishers who are undercutting prices. Recently, Harlequin (as one example) has provided me with discounted ebooks and free ebooks. Are they devaluing writers or simply attempting to increase their market share?

Welcome to the boards, Teasha. Glad you're here.

In looking at the costs of a printed book from a publisher who is going to get it into the brick and mortar stores (and possibly the Walmarts, Targets etc.) a significant large sum of money is paid to print the book. That money is paid to the printer regardless of whether the book sells or not. That comes out of the budget right then and there. So while the often quoted "price per book" is low, there's a cash outlay behind getting that price. The publisher can try to recover that if the book doesn't sell (remaindered books -- even best selling authors!), but they can still take a loss in the end. There isn't that particular kind of risk/impact to the bottom line with an e-book.

Yukinara said:

yes, generally it cost more for to print a book, that's why the price from traditional publishers is always higher.

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This isn't true. The cost of printing a book is a relatively minor expense. Publishers do a lot more than printing and distribution.

jairey said:

In looking at the costs of a printed book from a publisher who is going to get it into the brick and mortar stores (and possibly the Walmarts, Targets etc.) a significant large sum of money is paid to print the book. That money is paid to the printer regardless of whether the book sells or not. That comes out of the budget right then and there. So while the often quoted "price per book" is low, there's a cash outlay behind getting that price. The publisher can try to recover that if the book doesn't sell (remaindered books -- even best selling authors!), but they can still take a loss in the end. There isn't that particular kind of risk/impact to the bottom line with an e-book.

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Again: the cost of printing is generally about 10% of cover price. Most of the money a publisher is risking will be spent on things like editorial, design, marketing etc.

Torgo said:

Again: the cost of printing is generally about 10% of cover price. Most of the money a publisher is risking will be spent on things like editorial, design, marketing etc.

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Again, please pay attention.

Printing and warehousing are minuscule parts of the cost of making a printed book.

The advance is often the largest line-item.

But wouldn't it be more of a fair competition to let the market choose the better book rather than an agent have to pick one from a hundred submissions?

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While I agree with the sentiment (that the people should choose the "better" book,) it can be argued that without the gatekeepers the audience is less likely to find any books worth reading.

Kriven said:

While I agree with the sentiment (that the people should choose the "better" book,) it can be argued that without the gatekeepers the audience is less likely to find any books worth reading.

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Hate to be that guy who just says "this" but: this.

PS I think 'I Want My Hat Back' is a masterpiece.

For example, Klassen's "I Want My Hat Back". I picked up because it had good buzz. I was so very disappointed. The only redeeming part was that I didn't pay the $15.99 list price for it.

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PS I think 'I Want My Hat Back' is a masterpiece.

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Case in point that everyone should be able to decide for themselves what they want to read. My treasure may be your, "My eyes! They burn!"

Teasha said:

But wouldn't it be more of a fair competition to let the market choose the better book rather than an agent have to pick one from a hundred submissions?

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I think both options are available for readers now. If they want books that have gone through gatekeepers, they can buy commercially published books. If they want to try self-published books, there are self-published books.

I think the problem with the readers as gatekeeper model is skill. When asking someone to pay for a product, I personally feel that there is a certain level of professionalism that should be expected. In other words, if you want someone to pay for it, you'd better be good enough to warrant it.

I'm going to make crappy comparison now. Let's say that instead of books we were talking about music. You walk into a music store and find a room filled to the brim with CDs that anyone who wanted to sell a CD has created. Every person who thinks he can play the guitar (trust me, most people who say it can't), every garage band, every contestant for American Idol, etc.

Now, a lot of us might be willing to buy a cheap CD from a friend's garage band, or our kid's concert at school, but most of us wouldn't be too happy to have spend money to hear someone with poor rhythm who misses notes or who can't sing on key. Some of those CDs are no doubt great, but honestly, most of us wouldn't even want the CD by the best kid in the band at school because they just aren't quite that good yet.

More than anything, in order to find a CD you do want, you have to listen to them all, at least a little. How much time do you spend listening to 30 second clips trying to find out if the person playing the song is actually any good? How long would you do this before you got tired of it and went to a store that only sold professional music? How many CDs would you buy and then realize they weren't very good before you decided it was a waste and stopped buying them?

So crappy metaphor aside, this is the same thing. You have over a hundred thousand self-published ebooks on Amazon (and hundreds of thousands of commercially published ones). Some might be great, but most are the equivalent of those kids at a first-year music recital.

Some people like the discovery element, or enjoy giving the underdog a chance, similar to how some people are huge followers of indie music or will watch indie movies, but a large portion of the population, probably most, are going to share my opinion that they don't want to pay money for someone's practice.

Now, if we get to a point where authors are able to self-regulate and recognize that they aren't at that professional level, this won't be a problem, but unfortunately, the Dunning-Kruger effect suggests this isn't likely to happen. After all, the people who are the worst at something usually think they're among the best. And a lot of the best are still being picked up by agents and being commercially published.

kaitie said:

Now, if we get to a point where authors are able to self-regulate and recognize that they aren't at that professional level, this won't be a problem, but unfortunately, the Dunning-Kruger effect suggests this isn't likely to happen. After all, the people who are the worst at something usually think they're among the best. And a lot of the best are still being picked up by agents and being commercially published.

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I think there's a lot of truth to this. There's a moment when you're reading slush, where you realize you've read four pages, and you're still reading.

It's a really neat realization, and it's not rare, but it's not common.

Sometimes that initial reaction just doesn't pan out. The book doesn't manage to keep a reader's interest for, say, four chapters, never mind a whole book.

But I've seen excerpts in SYW here that I knew were going to end up being commercially published, and that I looked forward to buying because they were solid books, and I knew they would be better after revisions and editing.

The problem with a lot of the self-published books, especially fiction, is that while some would definitely have made it out of the slush pile, it's not any higher a percentage than the percentage of slush survivors in terms of commercial publishing.

In fact, sometimes, it seems lower. (I don't know that it is, but it does seem that way.)

As a reader, I'm not interested in slushing that I have to pay for.

I can risk a book by someone that's moving rapidly in the Kindle charts, or I can buy a book from a publisher I know, edited by an editor whose taste I trust, and, most importantly of all, a book other readers are telling me about in review magazines and sites, and blogs, and sites like Good Reads.

Now, sure, those are sometimes information sources that can be gamed, but I follow recommendations from people I actually know. They are trusted readers, even if they aren't in publishing.

Queen of Swords said:

I think both options are available for readers now. If they want books that have gone through gatekeepers, they can buy commercially published books. If they want to try self-published books, there are self-published books.

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Personally, I like having both options. I love Nora Roberts' books and know what I'm getting when I purchase one. I also find it fun to find and read self-published e-books. It does take a bit of work and reading previews, but not so much that I mind doing it.

For me, it's all about having choices. The more choices, the better.

kaitie said:

I'm going to make crappy comparison now. Let's say that instead of books we were talking about music. You walk into a music store and find a room filled to the brim with CDs that anyone who wanted to sell a CD has created. in order to find a CD you do want, you have to listen to them all, at least a little. How much time do you spend listening to 30 second clips trying to find out if the person playing the song is actually any good?

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Tough comparison.

With music, you have FM radio. I'm old enough (more than old enough, actually) to remember AOR FM radio which was really a good indicator for which albums to buy.

Top 40 radio. . . ugh. You'd go and buy the album only to find the one (or two) songs you really liked and then discover that the rest of the album pretty much stunk.

Then came digital and the internet and file-sharing and the ensuing conniption fit over people swapping songs. . .

iTunes was genius--buy the music you want, forget the rest.

But ask yourself this: Other than radio, how else do you arrive at a decision to pick/choose/explore a new music purchase?

Most people do so by recommendation from friends, peers, reviews, etc--with "reviews" often being the weakest. (How many times have we read "reviews" of movies where the critic said the movie blew chunks, but we went anyone and loved it so much we went out and bought the DVD?)

"Hey, check this out!" is heard often. My own (now adult) daughter's iTune library is almost a total referral of other songs and artists recommended by her friends who knew her tastes, likes and dislikes in music.

Same thing in books. I get people telling me all the time that there's this book or that book I should read because I'd enjoy it. My fellow pilots are always on the lookout for books about other pilots and airplanes. My old cop buddies lookout for books about cops and the such. Etc, etc.

OUR buzz is from referrals more than anything else, and we're fortunate in that "trial" can be had now with the touch of a mouse via the internet (sampling Amazon books, Barnes & Noble, etc) or flipping through the pages at a bookstore.

There is also the loaning and borrowing of books, while we as authors don't get paid, we do get exposure and build a fan base.

My kid has all of the Stephanie Meyer books. She started off by borrowing the first one--then she just "had" to have all of them.

I have all of Tom Clancy's, Vince Flynn's and others. My first Clancy book, The Hunt For Red October, was loaned to me.

I'll always contend that if you write GOOD STUFF and prepare it correctly, then market it correctly and thoroughly, you'll find your audience. Your success will then depend upon how well you manage and take care of your audience.

Take care of your audience (write good stuff) and your audience will take care of you (buy your books and recommend you to their friends).

merrihiatt said:

Personally, I like having both options. I love Nora Roberts' books and know what I'm getting when I purchase one. I also find it fun to find and read self-published e-books. It does take a bit of work and reading previews, but not so much that I mind doing it.

For me, it's all about having choices. The more choices, the better.

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I do, too. The problem for me is that all a traditionally-published book tells me is that it meets a minimum standard of competence, and that somebody liked it well enough to publish it. It has very little bearing on whether it will appeal to me.

I have, of course, the same problem with self-published books - except that I am more likely to buy them because something caught my eye. I don't seek them, they find me. When that happens, I'd say the probability that I'll enjoy them is about the same or higher than with a gate-kept book. The cost is low, so I'm willing to experiment. I've been wrong a few times; it's just a matter of hitting delete. And I've been right more often and found a book I wouldn't necessarily have found otherwise.

Hi. New to the site - so glad I came across it! I'm 2/3 through writing a non-fiction (financial) book and need all the help I can get. The whole arena of publishing is new to me and quite fascinating - yet equally confusing.

Anyhow, just to add on this thread, I think it makes a big difference what type of book is being considered. For what I am doing, non-fiction, many of what the trad publishers want is decided based mostly on the platform the author has to sell it from. Does he have a national following? Is she a national speaker or talk show host? If yes, then the publisher will look at whatever they have to sell.

Case in point, Laura Ingraham's book "The Obama Diaries". I'm tend towards being conservative so someone gifted the book to me... oh my! It was so awful! Poorly written, boring, couldn't finish it. BUT, Laura has a large audience, goes on lots of other shows and I am sure she sold a ton of books.

The point is, if one has no "platform" and want to publish a non-fiction book, good luck getting any trad publisher to even look at it. With the self-publishing or eBook routes available today, we hte "unplatformed" writers have a chance! So, maybe I'd come down on the side of "it depends".

As far as cheapening the work of "good" writers, well that's been going on for years anyhow. The trad publishers are in it to make $$$ (as they should be) so if they can sell crap - becuase it's the type of crap many readers want - they will. It's just going a bit faster now.

Again, great site and tons of great info here. Thx.

Welcome, Financial Doom!

Financial Doom said:

Anyhow, just to add on this thread, I think it makes a big difference what type of book is being considered. For what I am doing, non-fiction, many of what the trad publishers want is decided based mostly on the platform the author has to sell it from. Does he have a national following? Is she a national speaker or talk show host? If yes, then the publisher will look at whatever they have to sell.

Case in point, Laura Ingraham's book "The Obama Diaries". I'm tend towards being conservative so someone gifted the book to me... oh my! It was so awful! Poorly written, boring, couldn't finish it. BUT, Laura has a large audience, goes on lots of other shows and I am sure she sold a ton of books.

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Yep, that book was just flat painful to read, and so have a number of other "talking heads'" books along with other public officials and personality types.

I've read (translation: struggled) through a lot of them because I don't trend conservative; I AM conservative so I purchase the books more or less as a show of support, then take them out on the boat to read on a lazy summer afternoon.

Oh. My. Gosh. The commentators and personalities can't seem to understand that while they may have excellent "behind the microphone" or "on the stage" communications skills, they are sorely lacking when it comes to being an author.

Worse yet, I feel--really, I do--for the editors who have to try and turn chicken youknowwhat into chicken salad from these people's manuscripts.

But again, a book like this one from Ingraham or Rush Limbaugh's first two books or Hannity or Levin's are considered "can't miss" commodities by the big publishers. As you pointed out, these "writers" have a large national audience, they are already a "brand" unto themselves so brand recognition is instant, their shows provide them a perfect marketing platform, and they can constantly pitch and remind people to go out and buy their book.

At the end of the day, publishers exist to make money and regardless of whether or not we think Laura Ingraham's writing would make a salamander puke up a guppie, it's gonna get published 'cause it's gonna make money.

It's tough for non-fiction because you have to establish/possess bonafide credentials in many instances just to get an agent/publisher's attention.

Likewise, this seems to ALSO be true even in the self-publishing realm because if nobody has ever heard of you. . . .