E-publishing Vs trad publishing

You're asking the wrong question.

Commercial publishing wherein a publisher pays an advance and offers royalties is not restricted to print alone; it's also available for ebooks.

Ebook vs print is about a format, a container, much like hardcover vs paperback.

I suspect you're asking about self-publishing versus commercial publishing, and I suggest you spend a great deal of time reading, and figure out what the best options are for you.

These include epublishers who edit and produce your book, but pay no advance, just royalties, commercial publishers who publish your book in print and ebook forms, a print publisher and an ebook publisher, or going the self-publish route. There are even permutations of these options.

Nugus said:

The question I'm asking is: if I e-publish, say through smashwords, am I shooting myself through the foot? Or do I hope that one day I find the elusive lit agent and become the next Stephen King?
My apologies, I'm drunk. And frustrated. And have been waiting for fifteen years, plus too many rejections.

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You might be. You'd be giving up first rights, which are worth more.

How have your queries gone? Is your ms. being rejected or your query? Have you had requests for a full or partial?

Have you posted excerpts for critique in Share Your Work? Have you worked on your query letter in query hell?

Nugus said:

Medievalist, you have just become my Jimney Cricket. What's the point in having first rights if you can't find an agent? If my research is right then an author has to be rich, famous, or an existing author.

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Your research is wrong. I got a book contract, and then got an agent. Lots of people do it the other way round as well.

In the case of genre fiction, there are publishers who don't require agents--and they're often good publishers. My favorite SF publisher doesn't require an agent.

First time authors get published by legitimate publishers all the time. We've got bunches here--Erin Morgenstern, for one, at least a third of the mods . . . lots of people.

The thing is, you might be being rejected because your query / cover letter doesn't do your book justice.

I have no way of knowing. It might be that your book needs mor work.

Again, I have no way of knowing. Authors who succeed tend to succeed after a lot of revision. It's usually not their first book. It's often their second or even third.

And they work on revising. They have outside readers, beta readers, and critters. They work on their query and their synopis, and they have readers help them with that.

You can self publish an ebook then turn around and sell it to a traditional publisher, especially if it sells a lot of copies. I can think of four or five authors off the top of my head who have done it in the past couple years. Of course, they all sold a ton of books on their own first.

There won't be a first rights issue, either, since you're not really publishing a book. What you're doing is uploading and selling a product on Amazon, no different than if you built bird houses and sold them online. When you upload your books to Amazon, you're more of a vendor than a published novelist, so first world rights remain untouched.

Scout, I'm not trying to sound rude here, but you are wrongly informed about most of what you're saying.

As to self-publishing and then selling to a publisher, it does happen, but it is a very, very rare occasion--especially to sell the same book to a commercial publisher. In order to do so, one will need to sell a very, very high amount of books, and in fact someone had some great statistics here not long ago about the number of self-publishers on Amazon who had sold a large number (I want to say over 100,000 copies) and it was .02% of the number of books self-published on Amazon.

Even if you managed to sell in the tens of thousands, which might be enough to attract attention, it's no guarantee that any publisher will pick up that particular book. They might also decide that the book wouldn't work at a higher price point or that the book has already found it's audience, etc.

As for the first rights, this is where your advice is downright dangerous. You are publishing a book when you self-publish. It could be argued that posting an entire book online on a website could be using first rights, but when you put a book up for sale on Amazon or anywhere the first rights are gone. You are talking about a book with an ISBN being sold on a bookstore. It has been published because when you self-publish you are acting as publisher. Amazon is the vendor of the product, you yourself are the publisher doing everything that a normal publisher would.

Please be careful when you give advice about a topic like this if you haven't done the proper research. If an author followed the advice you are giving, it is very possible that they could find themselves in a very painful place later.

scoutxx said:

There won't be a first rights issue, either, since you're not really publishing a book. What you're doing is uploading and selling a product on Amazon, no different than if you built bird houses and sold them online. When you upload your books to Amazon, you're more of a vendor than a published novelist, so first world rights remain untouched.

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This is completely false. I suggest you look at the standard sections of a publishing contract regarding indemnity, copyright, derivative works and prior rights.

scoutxx said:

There won't be a first rights issue, either, since you're not really publishing a book. What you're doing is uploading and selling a product on Amazon, no different than if you built bird houses and sold them online. When you upload your books to Amazon, you're more of a vendor than a published novelist, so first world rights remain untouched.

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What in the world gave you that idea?

Amazon e-books ARE published - that's why it's called "Kindle Direct Publishing".

scoutxx:
You can self publish an ebook then turn around and sell it to a traditional publisher, especially if it sells a lot of copies. I can think of four or five authors off the top of my head who have done it in the past couple years. Of course, they all sold a ton of books on their own first.

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Yeah and the reason you can think of 4 or 5 authors who've done that in the last couple of years is because it's still so rare that the newspapers and media report on those people.

Epublishing and self-publishing are great tools, but the number of people who hit the bestseller lists by going down that route is still very small. Now, it may be that this changes later on as the market develops, but at the moment it's telling that many of the big self-publishing successes still sign up deals (albeit multi-million ones) with commercial publishers once they hit the big time.

scoutxx:
There won't be a first rights issue, either, since you're not really publishing a book. What you're doing is uploading and selling a product on Amazon, no different than if you built bird houses and sold them online. When you upload your books to Amazon, you're more of a vendor than a published novelist, so first world rights remain untouched.

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That's utter bollocks.

The moment you release your book through Amazon (whether on your own, through your own company or whatever), you've published it. Ditto if you go through CreateSpace or Lulu. Once the book is released, your first publishing rights are extinguished.

Anyone who tells you different has never opened a law book in their lives.

MM

Nugus said:

As I mentioned before - drunk. Sorry.

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I don't know any other way to say this and not have it sound like it's gonna sound.

Nugus, before you make any decisions, don't be drunk. It will lead to clouded thinking and poor decision-making.

Do some more research, listen to what we (on the board) are trying to tell you. Really dig deep down and ask yourself if what they say just might be right and true.

And make these decisions sober. :/

Momento Mori said:

Yeah and the reason you can think of 4 or 5 authors who've done that in the last couple of years is because it's still so rare that the newspapers and media report on those people.

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Exactly. Out of how many people who self-published in the last couple of years? It's mind boggling.

Unless you signed something giving away first rights, you still own them. Does the KDP contract say they're taking first world rights? If not, then don't worry about it. No one is going to sue you.

If a publisher likes your book and thinks they can sell it, they will publish it no matter if you've uploaded it to Amazon or not. It might make you slightly less attractive to them, but again, it all comes down to the quality of the book and whether or not they think they can sell it.

The reason self published authors aren't being offered contracts with big publishers as often these days is because publishers realize that selling a book at impulse buy prices is a lot different than selling a book at full price. Need proof of this? Look at Amanda Hocking's dismal sales with her new publisher. As it turns out, her books are only worth $.99.

Publishing is not as complicated as people think. All it takes is writing a good book, then getting lucky enough to find a publisher who loves it. It's that simple. If you don't believe me, then you haven't been involved in publishing enough to know. If you haven't been published (KDP doesn't count), then either you're not good enough or you're not lucky enough. Don't worry about rights and all the rest, just try to build an audience and get better. If the big publishers survive, and they think they can make money off you, they'll publish you.

scoutxx said:

Unless you signed something giving away first rights, you still own them. Does the KDP contract say they're taking first world rights? If not, then don't worry about it. No one is going to sue you.

If a publisher likes your book and thinks they can sell it, they will publish it no matter if you've uploaded it to Amazon or not. It might make you slightly less attractive to them, but again, it all comes down to the quality of the book and whether or not they think they can sell it.

The reason self published authors aren't being offered contracts with big publishers as often these days is because publishers realize that selling a book at impulse buy prices is a lot different than selling a book at full price. Need proof of this? Look at Amanda Hocking's dismal sales with her new publisher. As it turns out, her books are only worth $.99.

Publishing is not as complicated as people think. All it takes is writing a good book, then getting lucky enough to find a publisher who loves it. It's that simple. If you don't believe me, then you haven't been involved in publishing enough to know. If you haven't been published (KDP doesn't count), then either you're not good enough or you're not lucky enough. Don't worry about rights and all the rest, just try to build an audience and get better. If the big publishers survive, and they think they can make money off you, they'll publish you.

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Oh, grasshopper... you really need to read more in this forum and elsewhere before making such statements.

Really. Go. Read. Now.

scoutxx said:

Publishing is not as complicated as people think. All it takes is writing a good book, then getting lucky enough to find a publisher who loves it. It's that simple. If you don't believe me, then you haven't been involved in publishing enough to know. If you haven't been published (KDP doesn't count), then either you're not good enough or you're not lucky enough. Don't worry about rights and all the rest, just try to build an audience and get better. If the big publishers survive, and they think they can make money off you, they'll publish you.

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I really think you need to spend more time reading, and less time posting.

Start by reading this: First Publication Rights.

scoutxx said:

Unless you signed something giving away first rights, you still own them.

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By virtue of self-publishing, you've exercised the first rights yourself. If you've self-published, and if a publisher wants first rights, you don't have them anymore to contract; you can only contract reprint rights.

Now, the truth is that if a self-pubbed book is selling well and a commercial publisher wants to contract it, they don't give a rat's patootie that the first rights have been exercised.

But if the book isn't selling well, the fact that it's been self-published will be enough to put commercial publishers off. After all, low sales numbers are indicative that the full potential audience has already been exploited and there's no further money to be earned.

the truth is that if a self-pubbed book is selling well and a commercial publisher wants to contract it, they don't give a rat's patootie that the first rights have been exercised.

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Finally, someone who says something smart.

It gets tiring listening to all these self published wannabe's vomit up their uneducated theories about how real publishing works, so it's nice to see someone out there is paying attention.

Big publishing is ALL about money. It has very little to do with anything else, including quality. Sure, any editor would love to find a quality book they can sell, but given a choice between a brilliantly written book and a poorly written book that will sell, there's no competition. With that in mind, there is no reason to worry about first rights when self publishing a novel. All things being equal, if it's a salable product, a publisher will publish it.

And yes, you've exercised first rights by self publishing, but my point is that you're not going to sue yourself when you turn around and give those rights to a publisher, so if a publisher doesn't care, neither should you. A publisher might not love the fact that they missed those initial sales, but as long as they see an untapped market where they can make their money, they won't care if the book has been previously published.

Again, it's really not as complicated as people think.

A salable book + A ridiculous amount of luck = A book deal.

It's that simple.

scoutxx:
Unless you signed something giving away first rights, you still own them. Does the KDP contract say they're taking first world rights? If not, then don't worry about it. No one is going to sue you.

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That is a remarkably ignorant assumption and only serves to demonstrate that you need to do a lot of reading.

If you put something up on the internet (i.e. disseminate it to the public) whether that's through Kindle or some other medium, it is deemed and understood to be published. Many of the agreements that you sign (or click on) to enable you to use those programmes will tell you that you are publishing it. You have therefore used up your first publication rights.

If you later decide that you want to find a commercial publisher and submit a manuscript which is accepted, they will send you a contract. That contract will contain a warranty whereby you promise that the manuscript has not been previously published or released. If you give that warranty without disclosing the previous publication, they can sue you for breach of contract and good luck in defending it because it's pretty much cut and dried.

scoutxx:
If a publisher likes your book and thinks they can sell it, they will publish it no matter if you've uploaded it to Amazon or not. It might make you slightly less attractive to them, but again, it all comes down to the quality of the book and whether or not they think they can sell it.

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Yes it does, but whether you get offered a contract usually depends on what your self-published sales figures are like. It could be that they think you've got a good book but the market for it has already been tapped out.

scoutxx:
The reason self published authors aren't being offered contracts with big publishers as often these days is because publishers realize that selling a book at impulse buy prices is a lot different than selling a book at full price. Need proof of this? Look at Amanda Hocking's dismal sales with her new publisher. As it turns out, her books are only worth $.99.

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Really? Then how come Amanda Hocking's new book is currently number 4 on the NYT bestseller list for 18th March 2012? Seems to me like it's still selling a large amount of copies at the higher price given that it's been on the list for 9 weeks now. People who like her work are going to pay for it.

scoutxx:
Publishing is not as complicated as people think. All it takes is writing a good book, then getting lucky enough to find a publisher who loves it. It's that simple.

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Erm ... Who here said that publishing was complicated? Don't think we did, but thank you for suggesting it. Of course writing a good book will always help you to get published. As for luck - meh - some people are in the right place at the right time but in many cases a good book will always find a home.

But then that's not really what we're talking about here, is it? We're talking about self publishing versus commercial publishing and whether self published books can be commercially published. That takes a lot more hard work.

scoutxx:
If you don't believe me, then you haven't been involved in publishing enough to know.

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And you clearly haven't been involved in publishing long enough to know anything.

Seriously, dude, go and read up on the industry and learn about how rights work. Then come back, re-read what you posted and realise what an utter nincompoop you are.

MM

scoutxx:
It gets tiring listening to all these self published wannabe's vomit up their uneducated theories about how real publishing works, so it's nice to see someone out there is paying attention.

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The irony. It burns.

You might want to check out the credentials of the people posting in this thread. And then maybe - just maybe - you should offer up your own credentials to defend your own personal absurdist vomit that you're so keen to spew over us.

scoutxx:
Big publishing is ALL about money. It has very little to do with anything else, including quality. Sure, any editor would love to find a quality book they can sell, but given a choice between a brilliantly written book and a poorly written book that will sell, there's no competition. With that in mind, there is no reason to worry about first rights when self publishing a novel. All things being equal, if it's a salable product, a publisher will publish it.

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Quality actually does come into it. Publishers want to know that an author's dedicated to getting the best product out there onto the market. Sure, they'd love to be able to release something without doing any editorial work but that's as rare as rocking horse shit. Most of them want a good working relationship and almost all authors do work with an editor to get the quality up.

So if you've got a million sales at 99c for a poor written, poorly produced piece of dreck, then well done. It proves that some people will try anything once but it won't necessarily get you a publishing contract with a big house. If however, you've got people repeatedly buying every 99c piece of dreck you're publishing - then the publishers may sit up and take notice. But that is incredibly difficult to do and it's telling that those authors who've taken contracts with the big boys have almost all done so because they want to improve the books that they release as well as get rid of the marketing and promotion side of it.

Now run along and play, the adults can continue this discussion without you.

MM

scoutxx said:

Finally, someone who says something smart.

It gets tiring listening to all these self published wannabe's vomit up their uneducated theories about how real publishing works, so it's nice to see someone out there is paying attention.

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It's pretty clear that you have no idea regarding your audience. You might want to cogitate on that a bit.

Before you look any more foolish than you do right now.

scoutxx said:

Big publishing is ALL about money. It has very little to do with anything else, including quality. Sure, any editor would love to find a quality book they can sell, but given a choice between a brilliantly written book and a poorly written book that will sell, there's no competition. With that in mind, there is no reason to worry about first rights when self publishing a novel. All things being equal, if it's a salable product, a publisher will publish it.

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This is arrant nonsense. And I say that as someone who lives off of writing income, who has worked in commercial publishing as an editor, a proofer, and a typesetter, and has better than twenty years experience on both sides of the production wall in print and epublishing.

scoutxx said:

And yes, you've exercised first rights by self publishing, but my point is that you're not going to sue yourself when you turn around and give those rights to a publisher, so if a publisher doesn't care, neither should you.

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You do not know what you're talking about. At all.

Have you ever even seen a publishing contract?

scoutxx said:

A salable book + A ridiculous amount of luck = A book deal.

It's that simple.

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Let me know how that's working for you.

scoutxx said:

Finally, someone who says something smart.

It gets tiring listening to all these self published wannabe's vomit up their uneducated theories about how real publishing works, so it's nice to see someone out there is paying attention.

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scoutxx, let me remind you about AbsoluteWrite's One Rule: respect your fellow writer. You're in danger of violating that rule here. You're a relatively new member so I'm giving you a little bit of lee-way here but if you continue to talk so disparagingly about writers you're going to find yourself on time-out.

And yes, you've exercised first rights by self publishing, but my point is that you're not going to sue yourself when you turn around and give those rights to a publisher, so if a publisher doesn't care, neither should you. A publisher might not love the fact that they missed those initial sales, but as long as they see an untapped market where they can make their money, they won't care if the book has been previously published.

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If you self-publish your book then sign that same book up to a trade publisher of course you're not going to sue yourself for signing those publishing rights away: you didn't sign publishing rights away in the first place, because you've self-published. You still own the rights to publish your work in which ever way you want and can self-publish your book, or license others to publish it for you. You're quite right in this regard.

Where you're wrong is that you're confusing available rights with first rights. They're two different issues.

When you self-publish, your book has been published no matter how you've published it--via the Kindle, in print, or by engraving it on metal plates and bolting them to the outside of your house. One can only ever have one first time at anything: by publishing your book yourself you've published your book for a first time, so for your book, those first rights are now gone for good.

Does that make it any clearer?