Wish fulfillment- is it ever okay?

totopink · Mar 8, 2012

When reading through my MS today I realised I make my characters deliberately broken for fear I will otherwise write Mary Sue's or even more cringeworthy, myself but better and cooler and smarter etc.
But then I thought, is it actually so wrong?

Stephanie Meyer clearly wrote Edward Cullen as her dream guy and, luckily for her, the dream guy of a generation of teenage girls, and that seemed to work.

Plus I've heard it's cathartic to write fiction where you base the main character on yourself. It's just gotten me thinking, how far can you take wish fulfillment without it being unpleasant to read? Is basing a character on yourself/creating a perfect LI/creating a perfect MC ever okay?

Becca C. · Mar 8, 2012

In a lot of ways, everything I write is a form of wish fulfillment. That's what's so amazing about writing. You can explore absolutely everything you ever wanted to, and tell a story in the process so that it's universal. And it's almost guaranteed that something you want to experience (falling in love with a sparkly vampire, for example) is something someone else wants to experience, too. That's why certain books become runaway bestsellers -- obviously Harry Potter and Twilight spoke to some pretty urgent desires for adventure and love and good-conquering-evil in people.

robjvargas · Mar 8, 2012

It's a Wonderful Life and Miracle on 34[SUP]th[/SUP] Street are both stories that involve the fulfillment of wishes, and they are very popular.

I think it's easy to oversimplify such stories. But there's no reason they can't work.

missesdash · Mar 8, 2012

Hmmmmm. This is a hard one. I think there are a few popular series where the female MC is obviously an author stand-in. But for every popular one, I wonder how many are tossed aside because it's so obvious.

I'd venture to say that a good majority of new writers at least base their protagonist on themselves. I also know that when I see it done it's usually paired with shitty writing which means one of two things:
1. People who do it tend to be shitty (or very new) writers
2. People who do it well are less obvious about it

Probably a little of both. So I guess it's one of those things where if someone does it, they need to do it so well that it can't be discerned and everything else needs to be stellar.

So if a person can base the character on themselves but still allow them to be flawed and make mistakes and deal with conflict, it probably won't matter.

If I based a character on me, she would sleep a lot and never be motivated to do anything

Becca C. · Mar 8, 2012

Hahahah I have a hard time relating to people like me XD so my characters share some things with me (I write poetry and Gothic architecture nerds pretty well) but they're usually the opposite sex or gender. So even my self-inspired characters aren't me at all. It's mainly wish fulfillment situations. I have a book about falling in love with a prince -- who doesn't want to fall in love with a prince?!

breaking_burgundy · Mar 8, 2012

I feel like wish fulfillment is easier to get away with if you're writing a love interest instead of a protagonist. Especially if your protagonist is female, readers will be lying in wait for a chance to jump out and scream "Mary Sue!" Male love interests, however, always seem to have at least some wish-fulfillment qualities--and readers love it! (The best example that comes to mind is Noah Shaw from The Unbecoming of Mara Dyer. There was so much wish-fulfillment thrown into him that he didn't even feel like a real character. But most readers didn't seem to share that opinion. ;-))

Becca C. · Mar 8, 2012

breaking_burgundy said:
I feel like wish fulfillment is easier to get away with if you're writing a love interest instead of a protagonist. Especially if you're protagonist is female, readers will be lying in wait for a chance to jump out and scream "Mary Sue!" Male love interests, however, always seem to have at least some wish-fulfillment qualities--and readers love it! (The best example that comes to mind is Noah Shaw from The Unbecoming of Mara Dyer. There was so much wish-fulfillment thrown into him that he didn't even feel like a real character. But most readers didn't seem to share that opinion. ;-))

Toooooootally. Noah Shaw was the most wish-fulfilly character ever.

totopink · Mar 8, 2012

All the pieces I have been really committed to so far (new writer here *waves*) have been male protagonists so I have managed to avoid writing myself in as an MC so far.
It does seem that it's a lot easier to get away with a perfect love interest than it is a perfect MC though.
It's probably far easier to relate to someone imperfect who falls for someone perfect than the other way round though, I'm sure.

kuwisdelu · Mar 8, 2012

There's no real problem with basing your main character on yourself.

Lots of the greatest writers of all time did it. And it's what I do.

But for me, it's not wish fulfillment.

Just write a believable character, and you'll be fine. The problem with Mary Sues is they're just not believable or relatable.

missesdash · Mar 8, 2012

Becca C. said:
Hahahah I have a hard time relating to people like me XD so my characters share some things with me (I write poetry and Gothic architecture nerds pretty well) but they're usually the opposite sex or gender. So even my self-inspired characters aren't me at all. It's mainly wish fulfillment situations. I have a book about falling in love with a prince -- who doesn't want to fall in love with a prince?!

Gosh, you make me feel horrible. I torture my characters. "Hey! I said no smiling until chapter 8! That's it, you're getting another paragraph of self-loathing internal monologue!"

Becca C. · Mar 8, 2012

missesdash said:
Gosh, you make me feel horrible. I torture my characters. "Hey! I said no smiling until chapter 8! That's it, you're getting another paragraph of self-loathing internal monologue!"

LOL! But hey, whoever said falling in love with a prince is easy? He's got advisors and councillors and an arrogant, jerk-ass cousin heir breathing down his back... plus his dad just died so now he's the king and ahhhhh...

Lhipenwhe · Mar 8, 2012

I don't think wish-fulfillment is wrong or bad on its own. It's when the wish-fulfillment detracts or hurts the story that I come out against it. It's an unfortunate tendency for new/young writers to do so, but imaging how cool you'd be, or picturing the perfect partner, are things people do all the time; writing it down isn't too different.

mickeyDs4 · Mar 8, 2012

Sometimes I don't think we can help writing what we wish we could have been.

kuwisdelu · Mar 8, 2012

Becca C. said:
LOL! But hey, whoever said falling in love with a prince is easy?

Heh. When you said that, I immediately thought of Utena.

breaking_burgundy · Mar 8, 2012

Actually, come to think of it, Marie Lu once said this in an interview:

10. When you’re creating your characters, do you base their personalities on people you may know in real life?

Most of my characters have personality traits harvested from a large swath of people I know in real life, although a few do have fictional traits. Day (the main boy protagonist), for example, does and says things that I’ve heard various friends say and do. But June (the main girl protagonist) has qualities I wish I had in myself. So she was created as who I wish I could be, rather than from people I actually know.

Interpret that how you will.

little_e · Mar 8, 2012

Mary Sues aren't bad because they represent wish fulfillment, but because they are poorly written wish fulfillment.

Chazemataz · Mar 8, 2012

I think most fiction novels are a form of wish fulfillment. That's what makes them so popular. Criticizing a novel as being "wish fulfillment" is like bashing a Rihanna song for being "catchy and pop-y".

maybegenius · Mar 8, 2012

I think the issue comes in less with a character based on the author and more when the author is so in love with their own creation/version of themselves that they never let anything happen to them and they give them everything easily. When you're unwilling to let your darling baby character make a single real sacrifice or face a significant challenge, you've done a disservice to them and to your story. It's just self-fulfillment porn at that point.

The original Mary-Sue earned her place as the trope's namesake because 1) she was super good at everything without having to really try, 2) all of the attractive characters fell in love with her, and 3) she was JUST SO AMAZING that she never really had to struggle at anything.

Just don't make things too easy. Throw some real, substantial obstacles and losses in there. It doesn't hurt to avoid making everyone think your character is JUST THE COOLEST, either.

mickeyDs4 · Mar 8, 2012

maybegenius said:
I think the issue comes in less with a character based on the author and more when the author is so in love with their own creation/version of themselves that they never let anything happen to them and they give them everything easily. When you're unwilling to let your darling baby character make a single real sacrifice or face a significant challenge, you've done a disservice to them and to your story. It's just self-fulfillment porn at that point.

The original Mary-Sue earned her place as the trope's namesake because 1) she was super good at everything without having to really try, 2) all of the attractive characters fell in love with her, and 3) she was JUST SO AMAZING that she never really had to struggle at anything.

Just don't make things too easy. Throw some real, substantial obstacles and losses in there. It doesn't hurt to avoid making everyone think your character is JUST THE COOLEST, either.

^^This times infinity taken to the depths of forever!

missesdash · Mar 8, 2012

I also think people are interpreting "wish-fulfillment" in two different ways: 1. A way for the author to fulfill personal fantasies 2. A story people would likely read and pretend they are the main character.

Unless they're the same? I don't know.

And then that one guy who brought up Miracle on 34th Street.

nevillenox · Mar 8, 2012

Hey, as long as you write it well I personally see no problem with it. It's a story to tell like anything else, after all.

Katrina S. Forest · Mar 8, 2012

kuwisdelu said:
Heh. When you said that, I immediately thought of Utena.

That wasn't my first thought, but I can totally see why Utena came to mind there.

missesdash said:
I also think people are interpreting "wish-fulfillment" in two different ways: 1. A way for the author to fulfill personal fantasies 2. A story people would likely read and pretend they are the main character.

Unless they're the same? I don't know.

I think in a well-written wish fulfillment story, they're often the same. But if you're only going to do one, probably better to write #2 than #1. There's few reading experiences more boring than watching the author just play out his/her personal dreams (aka the grubby apartment story) and feeling like none of this has anything to do with you as a reader.

Becca C. · Mar 9, 2012

Katrina S. Forest said:
There's few reading experiences more boring than watching the author just play out his/her personal dreams (aka the grubby apartment story) and feeling like none of this has anything to do with you as a reader.

*cough* Anita Blake *cough* Dresden Files (sometimes) *cough*

flarue · Mar 9, 2012

I'd say that my MC has a few qualities that I borrowed from myself (we share a few of the same interests), but she's also based on a few other people that I know and a bit on someone completely out of my imagination. She definitely isn't me, nor would I want to be in some of the situations that she's going through.

I suppose I wouldn't mind knowing someone like the Male MC, however. :LilLove:

He might be a little bit wish fulfillment, but he actually came to me via a dream, so I can't really help wanting to see his story through to the end. I do hope that if and when this story is complete that it's something that others will enjoy, as well, because it's been a pleasure writing it so far. I haven't felt this sort of creative spark or JOY with my writing, in years.

Stiger05 · Mar 9, 2012

Mary Sues aren't bad because they represent wish fulfillment, but because they are poorly written wish fulfillment.

This.

1. A way for the author to fulfill personal fantasies

And this.

If it's well written, it doesn't read as wish fulfillment, it reads like a good story. I only notice wish-fulfillment characters when the writing is poor and the author obviously sees the MC as him/herself.

Each of my characters has various qualities or personality traits I have, but I've never written a character that is me, or what I wish to be. I sprinkle in dots of me because that's what I know and is my personal way of being honest, but I take each further than me. In the book I'm querying, the MC is a loner, is snarky, and doesn't trust people. One secondary character is a bit rebellious, one is nerdy, one is nice but a little manipulative. These are all aspects of myself, but none of these characteristics completely describe any character. They have other traits and their own personalities. The MC is also scared, and tired, and smart, and caring, and really wants to have faith in people. The nerd has a brave streak, and so on. I don't think of that as wish fulfillment because I wrote what I know, not what I want to be. I base some of my situations off things I've actually been in (especially when it comes to the LI) but only as a foundation. I write what I know because it comes off more real, but only the most base details come from me.

When I think of wish fulfillment I think of the author sitting there going "you know, I really wish I was a brave ass kicking princess with a penchant for baking" and then writing that as their MC.

Wish fulfillment- is it ever okay?

totopink

Becca C.

robjvargas

missesdash

You can't sit with us!

Becca C.

breaking_burgundy

Becca C.

totopink

kuwisdelu

Revolutionize the World

missesdash

You can't sit with us!

Becca C.

Lhipenwhe

Moving with my soul, step by step

mickeyDs4

kuwisdelu

Revolutionize the World

breaking_burgundy

little_e

Trust: that most precious coin.

Chazemataz

I went to sleep a poet

maybegenius

might be a giant

mickeyDs4

missesdash

You can't sit with us!

nevillenox

I have promises to keep.

Katrina S. Forest

Becca C.

flarue

Dreaming of Waltzes & Fantasy Lands

Stiger05