Need help writing in 3rd person POV

FlyBird · Mar 6, 2012

Hi, this is probably very basic, but I did't find any answers using the search function. My questions are about how to write properly in 3rd person POV. Below are some examples.

(1) A man and a woman are in a room and the man is the POV character. It goes something like this:

He thought she is cute and felt that he wants to find out more about her. Blah, blah. She saw (or noticed) a pair of keys under the newspaper on the coffee table, and picked it up.

Did the last sentence just change the POV to the woman? Can the non-POV character saw or notice something without grabbing the POV? What's the best way to describe what she was doing without changing POV?

(2) “I want these keys.” She said. Mr. X had told her an hour ago that the keys would open the secret drawer.

Can I mention that without switching to her POV? Is there any good way to reveal that information without changing POV?

Thanks for your help.

Cyia · Mar 6, 2012

FlyBird said:
(1) A man and a woman are in a room and the man is the POV character. It goes something like this:

He thought she is cute and felt that he wants to find out more about her. Blah, blah. She saw (or noticed) a pair of keys under the newspaper on the coffee table, and picked it up.

Did the last sentence just change the POV to the woman?

If this is an actual quote from your novel, you've got other issues besides POV. You switch from past to present, and it's unclear whether you're making a statement about someone's thoughts or actually quoting them.

'She's cute,' he thought. or She's cute. (in italics) are usually used to denote direct thoughts.

Once that's settled, you decide if it's 3rd Omni (outside narrator) or 3rd close (sticking to the man or woman's POV for a given scene)

Can the non-POV character saw or notice something without grabbing the POV? What's the best way to describe what she was doing without changing POV?

(2) “I want these keys.” She said. Mr. X had told her an hour ago that the keys would open the secret drawer.

Can I mention that without switching to her POV? Is there any good way to reveal that information without changing POV?

Thanks for your help.

Ah - it sounds like you're wanting to use 3rd Omni, but aren't sure how to do it without head-hopping.

3rd Omni requires an outside narrator (one who isn't either of the characters in the scene) who tells the story with full knowledge of both their thoughts and actions at all times. The narrator doesn't have to divulge all he/she/it knows, but he/she/it must always speak in a voice unique to him/her/itself.

So your scene becomes something more like:

When the beautiful woman stopped near his table, Martin thought he should take the chance and introduce himself, but she was only interested in the set of keys poking out from under his newspaper. They were Mr. X's keys - the very ones she needed to open the secret drawer.

Chasing the Horizon · Mar 6, 2012

The last sentence in the first example is a POV violation as written, but could easily be changed to communicate the same information from his POV. "She picked up a pair of keys from under the newspaper." Now you're stating an action he can observe, instead of violating POV.

In the second example, assuming Mr. X is the man whose POV you're currently using, you can include the information about him telling her about the key, since he would know too. If Mr. X is someone else, then you'll have to have the POV character ask the woman what she's doing with the key in order to explain.

All this is assuming that by "3rd person" you mean "3rd limited" and not omniscient or another POV variation of 3rd person.

Silver-Midnight · Mar 6, 2012

FlyBird said:
Hi, this is probably very basic, but I did't find any answers using the search function. My questions are about how to write properly in 3rd person POV. Below are some examples.

(1) A man and a woman are in a room and the man is the POV character. It goes something like this:

He thought she is cute and felt that he wants to find out more about her. Blah, blah. She saw (or noticed) a pair of keys under the newspaper on the coffee table, and picked it up.

Did the last sentence just change the POV to the woman? Can the non-POV character saw or notice something without grabbing the POV? What's the best way to describe what she was doing without changing POV?

(2) “I want these keys.” She said. Mr. X had told her an hour ago that the keys would open the secret drawer.

Can I mention that without switching to her POV? Is there any good way to reveal that information without changing POV?

Thanks for your help.

1) You switches tenses a lot in both of these. Typically in 3rd POV thoughts are italicized or a comma and the phrase "s/he thought" is placed after it.

I don't think it changes POV; to make it more clear from his POV, you can say "he saw that she noticed". That might be an idea.

2) That sounds like it's from her POV completely.

Dreambrewer · Mar 6, 2012

I've never really thought about it, but I seem to violate 3rd person limited all the time. My intention is usually to write in limited, yet I often slip into omniscient. Thanks to this thread, I now realize I do it and can reform my habit. Despite you not trying to help me, you have. Thank you for it.

Architectus · Mar 6, 2012

I would also avoid filter words. "saw, felt, smelled" etc. Just write what she saw, rather than say she saw.

She lifted the newspaper and found a pair of keys.

As far as POV. If you wish to stick to one POV, then write only what they expience with their 5 senses, what they think, and knowledge they have or previously gained that we are aware of.

Stick to once tense as well. Past is past. Don't use is, but was. You are telling a story that happened in the past, so you say, he thought she was cute. If it is a real time thought he is having, then you can write: She's cute, he thought. You treat it like a quote. In fact, in the past, thoughts had quotes around them.

He thought she is cute and felt that he wants to find out more about her. Blah, blah. She saw (or noticed) a pair of keys under the newspaper on the coffee table, and picked it up.

He thought she was cute and wanted to find out more about her. Then she distracted his thoughts by lifting a newspaper and found keys, but what did they unlock?

Example two is fine, but should be seperate paragraphs.

It might even be more impactful if the info came before she speaks.

An hour ago, Mr. X had said the keys would open a secret drawer.

"I want these," she said, dangling the keys.

LindsayM · Mar 6, 2012

I'm not going to go over the tense issue, as others have before me. To your question, however, it depends. If your MC is the man, and the story is being told from his limited third-person POV, "She saw a pair of keys" is fine if your MC is noticing her seeing the keys. If he is observing, it is still his POV. If his back is turned and you tell us she sees the keys, then yes, you are switching POV.

Orchestra · Mar 6, 2012

FlyBird said:
Did the last sentence just change the POV to the woman?

Yes and it was jarring as all hell.

What's the best way to describe what she was doing without changing POV?

Um. Describe it from his POV?

Can I mention that without switching to her POV?

No.

Is there any good way to reveal that information without changing POV?

From what you describe, the woman would be a far better choice for the POV character in this scene. See if you can make it so and if not, prepare to rework the events entirely. But I doubt this information is really mission critical. You could just try to accept the POV limitation as a creative constraint and decide that whatever he experiences must suffice.

jaksen · Mar 6, 2012

If you're really having trouble writing in 3rd, just rewrite it as first POV (as an experiment, if for no other reason.) Write it from his POV, then hers. You'll eventually 'get the hang of it' with practice.

Also, try reading some books written in 3rd and watch carefully how it's done.

Gilead · Mar 6, 2012

LindsayM said:
If your MC is the man, and the story is being told from his limited third-person POV, "She saw a pair of keys" is fine if your MC is noticing her seeing the keys. If he is observing, it is still his POV. If his back is turned and you tell us she sees the keys, then yes, you are switching POV.

We could be told from the man's point of view that the woman saw a pair of keys, but it would read oddly to me, as it sounds like the keys hadn't appeared earlier in the scene at all.

If the man had previously noticed the keys and remarked on them before the part we're given, surely it would be 'she saw the pair of keys'. And even then, how could the man know she saw the keys specifically until she then picked them up? She could have been staring at the newspaper itself, for all he knew.

Actually, looking at it again, the original sentence is impossible. 'She saw a pair of keys under the newspaper'? What, does she have x-ray vision?

FlyBird · Mar 6, 2012

Cyia said:
When the beautiful woman stopped near his table, Martin thought he should take the chance and introduce himself, but she was only interested in the set of keys poking out from under his newspaper. They were Mr. X's keys - the very ones she needed to open the secret drawer.

I think I am trying to stay in 3rd person limited POV, but this is also close to what I was trying to achieve. Thanks Cyia. I've got a lot to learn.

Chasing the Horizon said:
If Mr. X is someone else, then you'll have to have the POV character ask the woman what she's doing with the key in order to explain.

All this is assuming that by "3rd person" you mean "3rd limited" and not omniscient or another POV variation of 3rd person.

Yes, I was trying to do 3rd person limited, thanks for the suggestion.

Silver-Midnight said:
I don't think it changes POV; to make it more clear from his POV, you can say "he saw that she noticed". That might be an idea.

2) That sounds like it's from her POV completely.

Are you sure you can say "he saw that she noticed"? I am just wondering. Sounds like I can preface with "he saw" and then stay in his POV?

Dreambrewer said:
I've never really thought about it, but I seem to violate 3rd person limited all the time. My intention is usually to write in limited, yet I often slip into omniscient.

I am glad this helped you too, I am struggling with this problem.

Architectus said:
It might even be more impactful if the info came before she speaks.

An hour ago, Mr. X had said the keys would open a secret drawer.

"I want these," she said, dangling the keys.

But wouldn't this switch to omni if the POV character was not there an hour ago?

Chasing the Horizon · Mar 6, 2012

FlyBird said:
But wouldn't this switch to omni if the POV character was not there an hour ago?

Yes, it would. In 3rd limited you cannot communicate any information in narrative that the POV character doesn't know.

n3onkn1ght · Mar 6, 2012

Generally, instead of using 'she saw' or 'he heard', describe the action of them doing it. "Her eyes flicked to...." or "He stopped talking and tilted his ear towards...."

BethS · Mar 6, 2012

FlyBird said:
Hi, this is probably very basic, but I did't find any answers using the search function. My questions are about how to write properly in 3rd person POV. Below are some examples.

(1) A man and a woman are in a room and the man is the POV character. It goes something like this:

He thought she is cute and felt that he wants to find out more about her. Blah, blah. She saw (or noticed) a pair of keys under the newspaper on the coffee table, and picked it up.

Did the last sentence just change the POV to the woman? Can the non-POV character saw or notice something without grabbing the POV? What's the best way to describe what she was doing without changing POV?

(2) “I want these keys.” She said. Mr. X had told her an hour ago that the keys would open the secret drawer.

Can I mention that without switching to her POV? Is there any good way to reveal that information without changing POV?

You can mention it if the man knows the same information as she does about the keys. If the man doesn't know, then you'll will at some point have to switch the POV to the woman, but that can be done in another scene. The reader presumably doesn't have to know immediately why she took the keys.

It can be jarring to switch POV in the middle of a scene, and definitely so in the middle of a paragraph. Even in omniscient POV, it would be handled with more finesse than that. So your best bet is to maintain the man's POV and let the woman have her own POV in a different scene.

Bufty · Mar 7, 2012

In third limited - which means limited to the POV of one person at any given time/scene even though there may be more than one POV character used in the story - unless the POV character in the scene in question can see it, hear it, smell it, taste it, touch it, feel it, or is already aware of 'it' then you cannot mention 'it' no matter what 'it' is.

If you don't wish to change POV, you have to put 'it' - in this case what the woman is doing - within the man's sensory range as the POV character so he becomes aware of what she is doing, and while he may be able to guess what her motives are for doing whatever she's doing, he will obviously not be aware of her thoughts.

FlyBird · Mar 7, 2012

Thanks for everyone's input and they are very helpful. I have many instances like this so I think I've got a lot of work to do if I want to stay in 3rd person limited POV.

Architectus · Mar 10, 2012

Flybird, to answer your question.

But wouldn't this switch to omni if the POV character was not there an hour ago?

Yes, which is why I mentioned, "information they learned about previously. I assume the MC learned about that piece of information earlier int he story. If they haven't, then they can't talk about it.

bonitakale · Mar 11, 2012

LindsayM said:
"She saw a pair of keys" is fine if your MC is noticing her seeing the keys. If he is observing, it is still his POV. If his back is turned and you tell us she sees the keys, then yes, you are switching POV.

I would disagree a bit here. She saw the keys tells us what is going on in her brain. If the scene is from another point of view, I'd go with,

Watching her face, he knew the minute she saw the keys.

Or

Her glance fell to the desktop, and stopped dead. Then she looked away. But he knew she'd seen the keys.

Or

She moved the newspaper on the coffee table, and picked up a pair of keys from under it. "I could use these," she said. She didn't tell him why, and her voice was casual, but her grip on the keys was fierce.

If you're doing 3rd limited, you can only tell what the main character knows. You do have the advantage that the reader knows this is a book, whereas the m.c. doesn't, so things that seem unrelated or trivial, may give the reader clues the m.c. misses.Other than that, you're pretty much stuck with the m.c.'s eyes, ears, nose, fingers, etc.

Need help writing in 3rd person POV

FlyBird

Cyia

Rewriting My Destiny

Chasing the Horizon

Blowing in the Wind

Silver-Midnight

Dreambrewer

Architectus

LindsayM

Orchestra

practical experience, GTFO

jaksen

Caped Codder

Gilead

FlyBird

Chasing the Horizon

Blowing in the Wind

n3onkn1ght

BethS

Bufty

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FlyBird

Architectus

bonitakale