Historical Novel and language issue...

Ito · Mar 5, 2012

In setting my novel in 1930's Japan and China, I have struggled with deciding how to deal with dialogue/translation issues that would normally come up. Since my main characters (two protagonists who speak multiple languages) are the observers/narrators of the novel, I have chosen to not use Japanese/Chinese except in cases where a translation is not possible, or for an organization. Since it is historical fiction, would it being told in English hold it back?

Also, in order to be more accessible to the common reader, I have updated the dialogue style to a more modern style. Since my story is wholly fabricated, I feel I can take a bit more dramatic license. So long as the dialogue is well-written and effectively conveys the emotion/thoughts of the character, I don't worry too much about making sure it sounds like it's from the '30's.

Cristin_B · Mar 6, 2012

Just this morning I was working on a chapter of my book where my protagonist has to translate between Latin, Grabar (Armenian), and Parsik (Persian) to diffuse an international conflict. I have all the dialogue written in English, since the readers need to understand it and the P.O.V character is fluent in all three, but use dialogue tags to clarify who is speaking what.

That sounds more complicated than it comes across on the page (I hope!).

gothicangel · Mar 6, 2012

In the book I'm just finishing, my MC [who is a Roman spy, and therefore bilingual] conducts conversations in Latin, and sometimes Pictish. All I do is add tags like:

'He asked in perfect Latin,' or 'the warrior replied in a dialect of the Damnonii he found difficult to understand.'

EngineerTiger · Mar 6, 2012

In the fifth book in my series, I have a U.S. Army officer who is fluent in English, French, and German working behind the lines in World War I. When he is thinking, I keep it to English. When he is conversing with a German or Frenchman, the reader knows he's tri-lingual so I'll just sprinkle a word or phrase here and there so that it's obvious the conversation is in that other language. For example, if he's addressing a German Lieutenant, he'll say "Leutnant". If he's thinking about the German, he'll think lieutenant so that the reader knows what the German rank means.

I know when I read historical fiction, I always enjoy getting the flavor of another language but not if it's carried to the extent that I can't comprehend what is going on.

Puma · Mar 6, 2012

Use a little bit of the other language and a little bit of different speaking styles - just enough to give flavor throughout the document. But don't overdo. Puma

gothicangel · Mar 6, 2012

While on the subject . . .

I have a big pet peeve about the majority of writers of Roman historical fiction. When a Roman is talking to a 'barbarian' the barbarian speaks in a very cliched 'me no speakee Latin' way. Perpetrators include Simon Scarrow, Anthony Riches and Robert Fabbri. I would have thought that kind of stereotyping went out, when post-colonial literature came in? Or maybe it's because I think their main target audience is teenage boys?

Anthony Riches was definitely the worst perpetrator. I was reading his book on the Glasgow-Stirling train, and I burst out laughing in the middle of a crowded carriage.

On a historical note, surely cultures that traded with Rome could speak decent Latin. Or the local garrison commander would have made an effort to pick up the fundamentals of the local language.

EngineerTiger · Mar 6, 2012

That would be an interesting thing to research, gothicangel. In most regions that had substantial trade between different groups, an actual trade language was developed rather than one language superseding the other. For example, along the old Silk Road, the Plains Native American tribes, in Asia, even in the Pacific between islands.

I agree the no-speaky thing is annoying.

Ito · Mar 6, 2012

Thanks for the advice

Thanks for all the replies.

I am planning on using select excerpts from other languages, but only in places where the meaning is obvious or explained through the background activities. In the midst of a conversation, if a character were to offer 'cha, a shortened version of the proper o-cha. By describing the steam rising from the porcelain saucer or the care with which the "ceremony" was performed, the definition is obvious.

Another example I can't get away from are the prayers that my characters are forced/ordered to recite. Mixing in the prayers in latin, along with words/phrases in German/Chinese/Japanese, I think I am on the right track.

Cristin_B · Mar 7, 2012

gothicangel said:
While on the subject . . .

I have a big pet peeve about the majority of writers of Roman historical fiction. When a Roman is talking to a 'barbarian' the barbarian speaks in a very cliched 'me no speakee Latin' way. Perpetrators include Simon Scarrow, Anthony Riches and Robert Fabbri. I would have thought that kind of stereotyping went out, when post-colonial literature came in? Or maybe it's because I think their main target audience is teenage boys?

Anthony Riches was definitely the worst perpetrator. I was reading his book on the Glasgow-Stirling train, and I burst out laughing in the middle of a crowded carriage.

On a historical note, surely cultures that traded with Rome could speak decent Latin. Or the local garrison commander would have made an effort to pick up the fundamentals of the local language.

Guilty. Ahem.

Not of "Me no speekee Latin" but of putting the sentence order a bit awkwardly for foreigners (Armenians in particular) who don't know Latin well.

Is it really a cliche? How do you get across rough language ability otherwise?

gothicangel · Mar 7, 2012

Cristin_B said:
Guilty. Ahem.

Not of "Me no speekee Latin" but of putting the sentence order a bit awkwardly for foreigners (Armenians in particular) who don't know Latin well.

Is it really a cliche? How do you get across rough language ability otherwise?

The question is, is it logical that these characters would not know Latin well, as it would have been the 'prestige' language for 4-5 centuries?

Personally, if I was going to do something similiar myself, I would take a look at real people [maybe tourists] who have a basic knowledge of English. What you would find is a 'broken English.' I find 'me no speakee Latin' verges on racism [usually related to African, Indian or Native American stereotypes.]

Cristin_B · Mar 7, 2012

gothicangel said:
The question is, is it logical that these characters would not know Latin well, as it would have been the 'prestige' language for 4-5 centuries?

Personally, if I was going to do something similiar myself, I would take a look at real people [maybe tourists] who have a basic knowledge of English. What you would find is a 'broken English.' I find 'me no speakee Latin' verges on racism [usually related to African, Indian or Native American stereotypes.]

True. It would depend upon class and nationality. Aristocrats and tradesmen would be more likely to speak Latin than, say, a farmer. And an aristocrat would speak more fluently than a merchant who may have just enough working knowledge of the language to get by and sell his product.

At the time of my novel Armenia is under Persian rule. I think some people would speak a bit of both Latin and Parsik, depending on their education and occupation, but having an academic knowledge of a language doesn't help you to converse like a native.

Anyway, I hope my dialogue doesn't come across cliched.

gothicangel · Mar 7, 2012

Cristin_B said:
True. It would depend upon class and nationality. Aristocrats and tradesmen would be more likely to speak Latin than, say, a farmer. .

Umm, back in Ancient Rome farmers were of quite a high regard [unlike today.] Emperor Vespasian's father was a farm owner, and the name Vespasian and his brother were highly educated. Agricola means 'farmer' in Latin.

BardSkye · Mar 7, 2012

I asked a similar question in Story Research some time ago as I have a trader going from China to Jerusalem on the Silk Road. It wasn't usually done that way, as normally traders went as far as Persia, turned their goods over and went home.

I decided Latin with some borrowed words from the other languages would probably make up a believable trade language. I'm having my characters speak normally with the occasional "um, what's the word for this?" sort of thing to cover any difficulty with translations.

Unilingualism seems to be more unusual historically than at least passing fluency with several languages.

And I completely agree with the "No see-um, Keemosabe" dialogue. I listen to old radio dramas every night on a local station where that's very common. Pulls me out of the story every time.

Cristin_B · Mar 7, 2012

gothicangel said:
Umm, back in Ancient Rome farmers were of quite a high regard [unlike today.] Emperor Vespasian's father was a farm owner, and the name Vespasian and his brother were highly educated. Agricola means 'farmer' in Latin.

True, but the context of the discussion was barbarians. I doubt farmers, even rich landowners from Germania or Sarmatia would be inclined to learn Latin. Just my opinion. My research focuses more on Asia Minor and eastward.

I agree about multilingualism being the norm. Have you ever heard the joke:

What do you call someone who speaks 3 languages?
Trilingual
What do you call someone who speaks 2 languages?
Bilingual
What do you call someone who speaks 1 language?
American

I'm American (bilingual though), and am always amazed when I travel. Most of my students here in Africa speak a minimum of four languages fluently. My husband (European) speaks eight, though some better than others. After three months in Latin America he could speak Spanish fluently without having ever heard it before.

gothicangel · Mar 8, 2012

Cristin_B said:
True, but the context of the discussion was barbarians. I doubt farmers, even rich landowners from Germania or Sarmatia would be inclined to learn Latin. Just my opinion. My research focuses more on Asia Minor and eastward.

Hmmm, depends. Remember retired legionaries where rewarded with a gratuity of land.

Raula · Mar 8, 2012

I personally would be more concerned about making the dialogue authentic to the 1930s. You can't expect your readers to be multi-lingual, but you can expect them to have some grasp of what the 30s was like compared to modern day. This is because they'll have read other novels set in the thirties, even if it isn't set in Japan or China. Therefore, I would look to this for adding authenticity.

As for using other languages, I would recommend to keep it minimal. If used too often, it may distance readers from the narrative as they are forever having to take a step out in order to try and pronounce or translate. Even if you've told them what a word means a paragraph ago, don't expect their minds to have registered.

Historical Novel and language issue...

Ito

Lover of all things Medieval/Japan

Cristin_B

gothicangel

Toughen up.

EngineerTiger

Writing HF Again, Thank God

Puma

Retired and loving it!

gothicangel

Toughen up.

EngineerTiger

Writing HF Again, Thank God

Ito

Lover of all things Medieval/Japan

Cristin_B

gothicangel

Toughen up.

Cristin_B

gothicangel

Toughen up.

BardSkye

Barbershoppin' Harmony Whore

Cristin_B

gothicangel

Toughen up.

Raula