Am I Worrying for Nothing Again?

Silver-Midnight · Mar 3, 2012

One of my main reasons I'm afraid to venture really far into Urban Fantasy is because I'm afraid I'll start relying only on magical creatures for plot or lengthening the story. I do want to write Fantasy, but also want to write stuff. I mean my stories usually aren't that long in the first place, unless it is Fantasy, so far as it seems, but I don't fully know. However, I don't want to start relying on things like vampires, werewolves, etc. to extend my story length, and when I try to write something else, it's insanely short. Don't get me wrong, I think even the Fantasy will help get me with my writing; I think any form writing helps writing in some way or another. Is my question making sense though?

ladyleeona · Mar 3, 2012

Silver-Midnight said:
One of my main reasons I'm afraid to venture really far into Urban Fantasy is because I'm afraid I'll start relying only on magical creatures for plot or lengthening the story. I do want to write Fantasy, but also want to write stuff. I mean my stories usually aren't that long in the first place, unless it is Fantasy, so far as it seems, but I don't fully know. However, I don't want to start relying on things like vampires, werewolves, etc. to extend my story length, and when I try to write something else, it's insanely short. Don't get me wrong, I think even the Fantasy will help get me with my writing; I think any form writing helps writing in some way or another. Is my question making sense though?

If you're having trouble with length, take a look at your description. Do you engage all five senses? When I have a particularly thin scene, that's the first thing I look at, and more often than not, it's because I've neglected anchoring the reader with description. You shouldn't use creatures to lengthen a story--they should be a part of the story, if they're there at all.

There's a common misconception that fantasy has to be 200k to be acceptable, and that's about as far from the truth as it gets. Don't feel like the story has to be LOTRs proportions to be fantasy-genre. It doesn't.

Hope this helps a little.

Pyekett · Mar 3, 2012

When you first start writing in any genre, you may find yourself relying on tropes and cliches. Part of that is because all you know about the field is the stereotypes. That isn't necessarily bad, not as a beginning.

Know how to get past that? Write it. Write often and read widely in the genre. Cozy up to the stereotypes, make friends, and then play around with them. Pick them up and see what's underneath. The more you do in the area (writing and reading), the more familiar the territory becomes and the easier it is to work with.

Nobody could have written Superman's Song without having read a slew of pulp comics and their progenies. It takes the superhero stereotypes and folds them sideways, up, down, and into origami that dissolves in midair.

The best way past it is through it. Go write.

Silver-Midnight · Mar 3, 2012

ladylilchubb said:
If you're having trouble with length, take a look at your description. Do you engage all five senses? When I have a particularly thin scene, that's the first thing I look at, and more often than not, it's because I've neglected anchoring the reader with description. You shouldn't use creatures to lengthen a story--they should be a part of the story, if they're there at all.

There's a common misconception that fantasy has to be 200k to be acceptable, and that's about as far from the truth as it gets. Don't feel like the story has to be LOTRs proportions to be fantasy-genre. It doesn't.

Hope this helps a little.

Now that I think about it. I don't engage all five senses most of the time.

And more so not that I'd intentionally use them to length a story, it's more like. Here come a bad vampire, and with him he brings in or adds this sub-plot to it.

Oh, I know that Fantasy doesn't have to be that long, but I typically write short fiction, not novels. And as I said before, I know I won't want to write Fantasy all of the time.

Pyekett said:
When you first start writing in any genre, you may find yourself relying on tropes and cliches. Part of that is because all you know about the field is the stereotypes. That isn't necessarily bad, not as a beginning.

Know how to get past that? Write it. Write often and read widely in the genre. Cozy up to the stereotypes, make friends, and then play around with them. Pick them up and see what's underneath. The more you do in the area (writing and reading), the more familiar the territory becomes and the easier it is to work with.

That's true. I'm just afraid I'll get trapped in that "Here-Comes-X Creature-And-Main-Character-Has-To-Do-Something-To-Save-The-Day" type of thing. It's like whenever a supernatural is involved my plot idea somehow get....stronger? I don't know the word for it. Again, not saying this is a bad thing; I actually like it, but I don't want to get trapped by it either.

Layla Nahar · Mar 3, 2012

Well, most of it made sense to me except "I do want to write Fantasy, but also want to write stuff." Stuff?

Anyway. So, your stories are too short, but you can make them longer by adding a vampire or werewolf you can 'lengthen the story'. Also you don't want to do UF because you don't want to rely on magical creatures for plot or lengthening of story.

What is it about vampire or other magical creatures that 'lengthen the story'? Also, what do you mean by lengthen the story? Does it mean adding more events to the story? I guess what I'm wondering is why do vampires & co do this more than other types of characters. Your MC has to have setbacks, obstacles, right?

btw - I don't think you're worrying for nothing. I'm going to take a guess that this problem will be solved in increments rather than that you will find some key piece of information that will unlock the problem and set things straight. I'd suggest that you keep looking at how stories work, and try to see where your approach is interfering with your ability to do the same thing. Hope that makes sense.

Silver-Midnight · Mar 3, 2012

Layla Nahar said:
Well, most of it made sense to me except "I do want to write Fantasy, but also want to write stuff." Stuff?

Anyway. So, your stories are too short, but you can make them longer by adding a vampire or werewolf you can 'lengthen the story'. Also you don't want to do UF because you don't want to rely on magical creatures for plot or lengthening of story.

What is it about vampire or other magical creatures that 'lengthen the story'? Also, what do you mean by lengthen the story? Does it mean adding more events to the story? I guess what I'm wondering is why do vampires & co do this more than other types of characters. Your MC has to have setbacks, obstacles, right?

btw - I don't think you're worrying for nothing. I'm going to take a guess that this problem will be solved in increments rather than that you will find some key piece of information that will unlock the problem and set things straight. I'd suggest that you keep looking at how stories work, and try to see where your approach is interfering with your ability to do the same thing. Hope that makes sense.

Some of the stories I want to write I don't know what genre they fall in, and so I said "stuff". :roll:

I do want to write UF, but I don't want to only write UF, meaning I want to write in other genres besides UF.

By lengthen I do mean add more events or make things more complicated. My characters do have obstacles to overcome, but I don't know why it's more or tougher when the character(or a character that come along or the plot) involves some kind of magic or supernatural stuff. It just happens that way; that's all I can say honestly. Maybe in non-UF my characters setbacks aren't strong enough?

I hope that clarified some stuff.

little_e · Mar 3, 2012

Stories don't need to be a certain length. You write the story until it's finished, and then it is whatever length it needs to be to tell the story.

There's nothing wrong with using vampires or werewolves or little green men if you feel like it. What you should watch out for is using random stuff to extend your story for no particular reason. EG, suppose you were writing a typical girl meets boy, girl falls for boy, type of story, and then suddenly aliens kidnapped the boy and the girl had to rescue him. Okay, that's fine. Only they get back to Earth, and vampires kidnap the girl and the boy has to rescue her. And then they get home again, only werewolves have been serving up bad potato salad and people are falling mysteriously ill all over the city, so the wedding has to be postponed while they track down the leader of the werewolves and bring him to justice.

Well, it's longer, but it's mostly just a bunch of random stuff, instead of a coherent plot. By contrast, Girl meets boy, girl falls for boy, boy gets kidnapped by aliens, girl rescues boy, boy turns out to be secretly an alien and involved in an alien conspiracy and that's why he was kidnapped, girl and boy work together to end the conspiracy and save Earth, girl and boy live happily ever after; has some coherence.

Good luck.

BethS · Mar 4, 2012

You may be looking at this the wrong way.

Sounds to me like this is a plotting issue more than anything. Stories grow out of actions characters take to reach a goal, and the obstacles they encounter along the way. The characters want to reach their goals because of underlying motivations and agendas.

Conflict, IOW.

So, forget about adding monsters to lengthen the story. Events are not what a story needs. It needs conflict. Give your characters big, knotty problems to solve, and then be creative at making those problems even bigger and knottier.

Silver-Midnight · Mar 4, 2012

BethS said:
You may be looking at this the wrong way.

Sounds to me like this is a plotting issue more than anything. Stories grow out of actions characters take to reach a goal, and the obstacles they encounter along the way. The characters want to reach their goals because of underlying motivations and agendas.

Conflict, IOW.

So, forget about adding monsters to lengthen the story. Events are not what a story needs. It needs conflict. Give your characters big, knotty problems to solve, and then be creative at making those problems even bigger and knottier.

What does IOW mean?

And that's what I'm trying to say, I think, I can create more conflict when I have the option to add monsters of some kind. But maybe I'm wrong. For this WIP I'm currently working on this witch is love(and has been for a while) with this guy who's a werewolf, and the bad thing is that he knows but doesn't return her feelings. This ties in with when the woman he's in love with come back to town, and wants him back. The bigger problem is the woman is being controlled by someone else to kill the werewolf, and it's up to the witch and a warlock to like take the spell off.

Does that seem like more conflict or just more events?

And if it isn't conflict, how would add conflict--both of supernatural stuff and not?

Pyekett · Mar 4, 2012

in other words

Silver-Midnight · Mar 4, 2012

Pyekett said:
in other words

Thanks.

Does my plot sound like it has more conflict or more events though? How would I tell the difference between the two? I have trouble with making conflict stronger, if not making it in the first place.

BethS · Mar 4, 2012

Silver-Midnight said:
What does IOW mean?

In other words.

For this WIP I'm currently working on this witch is love(and has been for a while) with this guy who's a werewolf, and the bad thing is that he knows but doesn't return her feelings. This ties in with when the woman he's in love with come back to town, and wants him back.

Good so far. Love triangles (any triangles, really) are great sources of conflict.

The bigger problem is the woman is being controlled by someone else to kill the werewolf, and it's up to the witch and a warlock to like take the spell off.

Does that seem like more conflict or just more events?

That's good conflict. The witch wants to save the man she loves, but that means rescuing (from a spell) the woman he loves.

Now, what you do next can depend on a number of things. This warlock you mentioned, for instance. How does he fit in? What's his agenda? Can that agenda conflict with the agenda of another character? What does he have to gain or lose by helping the witch protect the werewolf?

Other questions to ask yourself: what does the witch want (besides the werewolf)? What's her relationship with the warlock?

Then there's the woman who was bespelled to make her kill the werewolf. What does she want (outside the spell)? Who cast the spell on her, and why?

Why, for that matter, is the werewolf the central focus of everyone's efforts? What's important or special about him?

If the answer to any of those questions requires more monsters to show up and make trouble, then by all means, bring them on. But the point is, by constantly asking questions about every character's motive, and what they have to gain or lose if they get what they want, you begin to get a sense of how each decision and action affects other decisions and actions. It's like tree limbs branching out from a single trunk. Suddenly your plot has places to go.

BethS · Mar 4, 2012

Silver-Midnight said:
Does my plot sound like it has more conflict or more events though? How would I tell the difference between the two?

Conflict in fiction is a result of what a character wants (goal) vs what is preventing him from getting it (obstacle). That is the bedrock basis of any story.

A character can be in conflict with himself, or with another character, or with nature, or with society at large, or with his deity.

Silver-Midnight · Mar 4, 2012

BethS said:
Now, what you do next can depend on a number of things. This warlock you mentioned, for instance. How does he fit in? What's his agenda? Can that agenda conflict with the agenda of another character? What does he have to gain or lose by helping the witch protect the werewolf?

Other questions to ask yourself: what does the witch want (besides the werewolf)? What's her relationship with the warlock?

Then there's the woman who was bespelled to make her kill the werewolf. What does she want (outside the spell)? Who cast the spell on her, and why?

Why, for that matter, is the werewolf the central focus of everyone's efforts? What's important or special about him?

If the answer to any of those questions requires more monsters to show up and make trouble, then by all means, bring them on. But the point is, by constantly asking questions about every character's motive, and what they have to gain or lose if they get what they want, you begin to get a sense of how each decision and action affects other decisions and actions. It's like tree limbs branching out from a single trunk. Suddenly your plot has places to go.

Well, the warlock/wizard/male witch is kind of like her friend; she isn't as close to him as the werewolf, but they do know each other and all of that. They get even closer when they start working together on breaking the spell on the other woman. She does fall in love with the warlock. but she feels that it's just some kind of rebound/infatuation thing because of how she felt about the werewolf. So, they end up together, but not together, at the same time.

The further conflict is that the woman--who's a werewolf and under the spell--previously left their little area because she wanted to go off on her own; she essentially just up and left, and a lot of people feel like she abandoned the werewolf guy. Now she's back, and want him again, and he does take her back. And while some people within the group of that werewolves aren't exactly excited to have her back, they feel it's better to have another werewolf, who is probably guaranteed to have full werewolf children, rather than the witch, who's not. I mean they are still friends to some degree with the witch, but they still have their codes and regulations.

As far as who cast the spell, I'm still working on that. I can't really figure out who I want as my "bad guy" yet. It's a tie in between the far or another witch. The reason why is because they're trying to hurt to the werewolf guy because he's the Alpha of the pack, and they could then destroy the pack. Now, why they want to do that; again, still working on it.

And this story, is actually more about the witch, and it's actually going to be most likely mostly--if not completely--from her perspective.

BethS said:
Conflict in fiction is a result of what a character wants (goal) vs what is preventing him from getting it (obstacle). That is the bedrock basis of any story.

A character can be in conflict with himself, or with another character, or with nature, or with society at large, or with his deity.

Okay. I still have trouble with it, but I understand what you're saying.

BethS · Mar 4, 2012

Silver-Midnight said:
Okay. I still have trouble with it, but I understand what you're saying.

Seems like you've got a handle on it, from the looks of your plot so far. Just trust yourself and let the story unfold naturally.

Stacia Kane · Mar 4, 2012

Just as an aside, this sounds more like a paranormal romance than UF; it seems the main plot thrust--as you've described it--is the romance and the heroine falling in love.

It may help you to think of it that way, in that everything that happens in the story needs to further the romance and so you basically already have a plot, and just need to add conflict. I hope it does, if that's the case.

veinglory · Mar 4, 2012

I am baffled as to how writing about a vampire suddenly causes a longer story than writing about a mechanic, and if it did--why this would be a bad thing.

IceCreamEmpress · Mar 4, 2012

To build on veinglory's comment (or my understanding of same), worldbuilding is for every genre of fiction.

Yes, with contemporary realistic fiction you can expect your readers to understand some things without your spelling them out--how a shower works, how you boil an egg, how you darn a sweater--and in fantasy or SF or paranormal you might have to explain how the nanobots clean your skin, or how a sorceress cooks an egg using elemental magic, or why ghosts' sweaters never need darning, but ultimately every world needs to be populated with sights, sounds, textures, smells, tastes, and histories.

Maybe rereading a couple of your favorite books in the genre(s) you're interested in writing about, and then mapping them in terms of plot, characterization, and description might be helpful in letting you see how it adds up.

veinglory · Mar 4, 2012

I almost certainly know more about classic vampires than being a mechanic... that is a truly foreign world.

Silver-Midnight · Mar 4, 2012

Stacia Kane said:
Just as an aside, this sounds more like a paranormal romance than UF; it seems the main plot thrust--as you've described it--is the romance and the heroine falling in love.

It may help you to think of it that way, in that everything that happens in the story needs to further the romance and so you basically already have a plot, and just need to add conflict. I hope it does, if that's the case.

Well, even though the romance part is important, most of the story is going to be her trying to break the spell on the woman more so than anything I think. I could be wrong though. Well, that and HEA is a requirement for romance, and this won't end in a HEA or HFN. She ends up leaving, not getting with either character.

veinglory said:
I am baffled as to how writing about a vampire suddenly causes a longer story than writing about a mechanic, and if it did--why this would be a bad thing.

I have no idea either, and it's not just vampires. It's like when magic or the supernatural is involved, everything changes.

I'm not saying it's an entirely bad thing; I just know that I don't plan to just write UF/PNR, at least I don't think I do. I feel like that it presents a problem if I only know how to build conflict if magic or the supernatural is somehow involved. I could be wrong, but it's just how I feel. I know that I want to write UF/PNR, but I want to write other genres as well. I don't know; maybe all of this is just a sign I've found my genre: UF/PNR, and I just need to embrace that.

FoamyRules · Mar 4, 2012

Hey Silver just thought I'd add my two cents to the equation lol. Maybe writing PNR/UF is your thing. I mean, this is how I operate and it may sound weird but whatever story comes to mind I write it. I try not to force it, I just go with the flow. Eventually a contemporary story may come to you or it may not. Hopefully that makes sense.

Silver-Midnight · Mar 4, 2012

FoamyRules said:
Hey Silver just thought I'd add my two cents to the equation lol. Maybe writing PNR/UF is your thing. I mean, this is how I operate and it may sound weird but whatever story comes to mind I write it. I try not to force it, I just go with the flow. Eventually a contemporary story may come to you or it may not. Hopefully that makes sense.

Yeah, maybe that's true.

Silver-Midnight · Apr 19, 2012

Silver-Midnight said:
One of my main reasons I'm afraid to venture really far into Urban Fantasy is because I'm afraid I'll start relying only on magical creatures for plot or lengthening the story. I do want to write Fantasy, but also want to write stuff. I mean my stories usually aren't that long in the first place, unless it is Fantasy, so far as it seems, but I don't fully know. However, I don't want to start relying on things like vampires, werewolves, etc. to extend my story length, and when I try to write something else, it's insanely short. Don't get me wrong, I think even the Fantasy will help get me with my writing; I think any form writing helps writing in some way or another. Is my question making sense though?

I just wanted to say that I found a better to state this. What I was trying to say is that when I writing a Contemporary story, especially Romance or Erotica, I either don't build enough conflict or plot enough. However, I think it's first. When I'm writing Urban Fantasy and in some cases, Paranormal Romance, I am able to create more conflict. I don't know if it's just those genres, or any kind of story that uses some kind of fantasy or supernatural element to it. I haven't tried it yet.

Basically what I'm trying to say is when I'm writing something that is Urban Fantasy or Paranormal Romance or etc., I am able to build conflict and etc. a lot easier, or so it seems, than something set in a contemporary romance setting. Now, why that is, I don't know. However, that just looks like it might be the case so far. I'm still testing the theory.

It could be that I do have enough conflict for my Contemporary stories, but I don't know how to extend or expand it that plot to the end of the book. I can turn it into smaller conflicts that relate back to the main conflict. For example, I have one main conflict/problem/plot, but I don't know how to take, when writing Contemporary, and make it more complicated or longer or whatever you want to say. Does that make sense?

Ctairo · Apr 20, 2012

Yes, you're worrying unnecessarily. My question is: are you building progressive complications? Progressive complications should be present regardless of the genre: http://www.jennakernan.com/plot thickens II.pdf

The article uses screenplay examples, but the information is useful.

Silver-Midnight · Apr 20, 2012

Ctairo said:
Yes, you're worrying unnecessarily. My question is: are you building progressive complications? Progressive complications should be present regardless of the genre: http://www.jennakernan.com/plot thickens II.pdf

The article uses screenplay examples, but the information is useful.

I don't think I fully understood that link, but I think I kind of have it I guess.

Also I think I'm having trouble with deciding complications or events that would prevent the couple from getting together/staying together/getting back together/fighting etc. In other words, I have trouble coming with conflicts that would prevent them from getting together and thus the story ending.

I do typically write Interracial Romance, but I really don't want to rely on race as a conflict unless the story is a historical or in the '50s - 70's, or set in location that is prejudiced against IR relationships. And if I were to use the location, I would really want to use the race thing as add-on or contribution as to why they shouldn't be together.

Am I Worrying for Nothing Again?

Silver-Midnight

ladyleeona

fluently sarcastic grandma offender

Pyekett

I need no hot / Words.

Silver-Midnight

Layla Nahar

Seashell Seller

Silver-Midnight

little_e

Trust: that most precious coin.

BethS

Silver-Midnight

Pyekett

I need no hot / Words.

Silver-Midnight

BethS

BethS

Silver-Midnight

BethS

Stacia Kane

Girl Detective

veinglory

volitare nequeo

IceCreamEmpress

Hapless Virago

veinglory

volitare nequeo

Silver-Midnight

FoamyRules

Hamtaro Rules

Silver-Midnight

Silver-Midnight

Ctairo

Why Isn't IGNORE Available in RL?

Silver-Midnight