See me in 10 years, hon

Akuma · Dec 19, 2005

I debated putting this in the "Children's" section but decided to put it here, merely because it makes more sense to me for it to be here.
Alright, so lately I've been reading stuff I don't usually read. Memoirs, poetry, mysteries, even one romace (ick), and also books for a younger target audience.
Prepare your responses to some bias views, please.

I didn't like younger target audience books for a couple of reasons. I don't enjoy the simplicity of it all ("Oh, ok, I'll join you on your vague adventure!"). But what irks me the most are the characters themselves: they are children and teenagers. And I wonder why. Is it some unofficial rule that young adult (fiction, particularly) must center around a teenager? Do teens not enjoy reading about adults? Am I a minority?
Now, such a detail as age wouldn't bother me except...well, I guess...there are so many books out of teenagers "saving the world" and whatnot but if you look at history, teenagers haven't exactly played a large part in history. In fact, I don't think the "teen" category became to be until the 30-40's, I think.

Not to say that all young adult fiction is so horrible. Harry Potter seems to be doing quite well for itself. Still, I'm skeptical. Teenagers aren't precisely known for bringing peace to the land and not whining. If anything, teenagers are seen as the least likely to save the day.
But isn't that the truth with most fictional characters?

Not quite sure what I'm saying, I've never been too great at organizing my thoughts, I just like 'em to spill out. What I'm asking is if you agree with this observation or is it something I'm missing? Is youth fiction merely means to encourage a younger audience that "they can do anything"?
Or are all these books just like regular books, in that the characters' ages are just that--ages.

Sage · Dec 19, 2005

Could it be that you're looking at it backwards? That it's not that YA authors think they need to write novels w/ younger protags, but that when the author writes a story w/ a younger protag, it gets put in the YA category by publishers/bookstores/readers (or even the author, if they think that's what's expected of them).

But I think you're in the minority. I believe that most people identify best w/ people their own age. And not all YA books are about teens saving the world. When I was a teen, I rarely read books like that (surprising that I write fantasy now, since that's where that theme is most likely to come up, but I read a lot of YA fantasy as a kid & I read it a lot nowadays too). If you find that kind of thing annoying, my suggestion is to avoid those kind of books.

If you're reading fiction, what makes it more acceptable that 30-year-old average Joe is able to save the world than if 16-year-old average Joe (or Harry if you'd rather

& Harry's done his bit of whining if you're thinking that teens should be whining instead of winning)? Both are unrealistic, but they're fiction, & you're probably reading it to take you somewhat away from reality. But I think that part of the appeal to (most) younger readers is getting to see someone like themselves doing something so glamorous as saving the world (or whatever they accomplish in the book)

I do think you're a little bit right about the "you can do anything," or something like that. If you want to give a message to teens/children, how better than w/ the characters their own age learning that lesson (or teaching it by using it & winning). As you bring up that you rarely see them whining, but think that teens do whine a lot. Well, if you see a teen who instead of whining is going out & doing something & making something out of it (whether it's saving the world or getting the girl/boy or winning the sports competition or whatever), maybe you'll be inspired to act similarly.

Just my 2 cents, really.

Annabella · Dec 19, 2005

Akuma said:
I But what irks me the most are the characters themselves: they are children and teenagers. And I wonder why. Is it some unofficial rule that young adult (fiction, particularly) must center around a teenager? Do teens not enjoy reading about adults? Am I a minority?

I think that for the younger ages it has to be a child hero. So the child can relate and pretend to be the hero. With the older ages there is more leeway, I think. But then teenagers tend to read adult books, too.

Akuma said:
Now, such a detail as age wouldn't bother me except...well, I guess...there are so many books out of teenagers "saving the world" and whatnot but if you look at history, teenagers haven't exactly played a large part in history. In fact, I don't think the "teen" category became to be until the 30-40's, I think.

Actually, I think 'teenagers' play a HUGE part in history. People got married at much younger ages, had children, fought wars, became kings and pharaohs, etc. At the age you(we) now consider teen.

akuma said:
Not to say that all young adult fiction is so horrible. Harry Potter seems to be doing quite well for itself. Still, I'm skeptical. Teenagers aren't precisely known for bringing peace to the land and not whining. If anything, teenagers are seen as the least likely to save the day.
But isn't that the truth with most fictional characters?

I think there are some exceptional teens out there today trying to save the world. I don't think you can say all teens whine. But I think we want to read a story (at least sometimes) about things we wish we could do. That we could save the world.

akuma said:
Is youth fiction merely means to encourage a younger audience that "they can do anything"?
Or are all these books just like regular books, in that the characters' ages are just that--ages.

I think the answer is both.

fallenangelwriter · Dec 20, 2005

well, teens don't have to read only about teens, but the YA genre is for books whihc ar eebing aimed specifically at teens, and thus usually have teenage protagonists.

I, as a teenager, and even as a child was fascinated by adult main characters because i wanted to see what it wa slike to be an adult; i liked seeing an adult POV.

if a teen wants ot read about adults, he/she can do what i did- walk to adult section of the library instead of the YA section.

Akuma · Dec 20, 2005

Annabella said:
Actually, I think 'teenagers' play a HUGE part in history. People got married at much younger ages, had children, fought wars, became kings and pharaohs, etc. At the age you(we) now consider teen.

I agree with you there, but when you think about history, you don't think about the nameless soldiers that perished to make the cause so. Eventually, and sadly, these people just become numbers in the history textbooks, even though each of them had wonderful individual stories. But when the average person thinks about history, they think about Jesus and Hitler and people like that, not the "pawns".

fallenangelwriter said:
if a teen wants ot read about adults, he/she can do what i did- walk to adult section of the library instead of the YA section.

Yea, I agree with that. It bothers me that this is irking me, because it gets in the way of a possibly good story. I suppose I'm going back to adult fiction.

Happy holidays!

PeeDee · Dec 20, 2005

Part of it is marketing. A book is written with a teen protagonist, it's likely to get shelved under YA. Not certain, but likely.

Kids, and teenagers, are amazing people. You're alive, you're exploding with energy and emotion and gusto, and you can friggin' change the world if you want to. You feel like you can, and damn it, you can. All over the place, you hear the stories about the kids who just go ahead and build themselves fascinating lives because they want to.

I don't know that all YA children save the world. Depends on how young. I mean, you can look at Coraline by Neil Gaiman (you should read it anyway, preferably out loud) or The Faerie Wars by Herbie Brennan, or Artemis Fowl, Harry Potter, Series of Unfortunate Events, Spiderwick, and on, and on.

It just depends on where you look, and on what you read. As it is with most things. I mean, we wouldn't say "Oh, fantasy. Well, all fantasy has magic, broadswords, Chosen Ones, and Mystical Worlds." This is true of some fantasy, sure, but not all.

So sayeth Pete, windbag.

Akuma · Dec 20, 2005

I don't know that all YA children save the world. Depends on how young. I mean, you can look at Coraline by Neil Gaiman (you should read it anyway, preferably out loud) or The Faerie Wars by Herbie Brennan, or Artemis Fowl, Harry Potter, Series of Unfortunate Events, Spiderwick, and on, and on.

I think I mentioned that there are exceptions. If I didn't, well, there. I have read most of those books and agree that you have a point there. Artemis Fowl isn't precisely the most pleasant of characters.

PeeDee · Dec 20, 2005

No, you mentioned there were exceptions. I was just burbling onward anyway, not correcting you at all.

Artemis Fowl's a total bastard, but it makes for a fairly good read...

KelseyF · Dec 20, 2005

When I was younger, I didn't always want to read books about adults. I wanted to read about a hero(ine) whom I could relate to.

SusanR · Dec 20, 2005

Well, I read Dickens when I was young. Don't think his work was intended to be "YA." But he had young characters in major roles: Oliver Twist, Pip, David Copperfield. I don't know if I would have enjoyed Oliver Twist if Fagan was the main, viewpoint character.

But some YA is just so darned wonderful. Like A WRINKLE IN TIME. Or Lois Lowry's THE GIVER. The protagonists in those stories face extraordinary problems but always within the framework of adolescent development. Josh, in The Giver, has to grow up and navigate by his own moral compass, in opposition to his parents and his whole society. Meg and Calvin, the teens in Wrinkle in Time, feel like misfits--they aren't 'cool' (rad, awesome, groovy, whatever) kids.

Maybe I've never grown up, but I count both those books amongst my alltime, life-changing favorites.

Susan

Dhewco · Dec 21, 2005

Again, I'm revealed for how strange I am and was. As a child, I prefered to read mostly nonfiction or adult fiction with kids my age, or close to it. (Rockinghorse by Johnstone, Talisman by King/Straub, IT and Shining by King. Little Boy Blue---I think that's the right title---a story about a boy growing up in and out of the juvinile system)...Also regular star trek books. The only YA/childrens I can remember reading and enjoying was the Bobbsey Twins and the Dark is Rising Series.

David

Jamesaritchie · Dec 21, 2005

Dhewco said:
Again, I'm revealed for how strange I am and was. As a child, I prefered to read mostly nonfiction or adult fiction with kids my age, or close to it. (Rockinghorse by Johnstone, Talisman by King/Straub, IT and Shining by King. Little Boy Blue---I think that's the right title---a story about a boy growing up in and out of the juvinile system)...Also regular star trek books. The only YA/childrens I can remember reading and enjoying was the Bobbsey Twins and the Dark is Rising Series.

David

I think you could almost count "The Talisman" as a YA novel, if you wanted to. HAd it been written by anyone except Straub and King, I suspect it might well have been classified as one.

Dhewco · Dec 21, 2005

Are you joking? With the scenes with whores talking about 'teaching' Jack things and the homo-erotic language of the Boys home (implied possibility of abusive relationships between an older resident and Jack)? You've got to be kidding me. I must not read the same types of YA you do. LOL.

Not to mention the physical violence that is thrown at Jack

David

Puddle Jumper · Dec 21, 2005

I agree that I think books get placed in YA just because of the age of the characters involved. I think too that people are drawn to characters in their age group. When I was a kid, I was only interested in stories about kids. Now as an adult, I find I'm more interested in adult characters. Yet I'm currently writing a story about teens. Go fig.

Jamesaritchie · Dec 21, 2005

Dhewco said:
Are you joking? With the scenes with whores talking about 'teaching' Jack things and the homo-erotic language of the Boys home (implied possibility of abusive relationships between an older resident and Jack)? You've got to be kidding me. I must not read the same types of YA you do. LOL.

Not to mention the physical violence that is thrown at Jack

David

No, I'm not kidding. YA books are not without all sorts of severe physical violence these days, and the langauge isn't pristine and pure, either. Nor is such subject matter automatically taboo. The Talisman is no worse in any of these ways that are many YA novels. YA means "Young Adult," not "children."

How you do it matters, but you can write about pretty much anything these days, and the Talisman was really very tame in most ways.

brokenfingers · Dec 21, 2005

Many mainstream and genre novels have young protagonists.

I recently changed my main protagonist from a man in his mid thirties to a younger protagonist (teens).

Why? Reader Identification. I wanted it to appeal to as broad an audience as possible.

The older protag was world weary and suffered from many of the normal pangs that older people do - regrets, disillusionment, worries about health and mortality, doubts, the need for redemption, the feeling that life has passed you by, that you missed your moment, or that you messed up in the past and must now pay the cost etc.

But as I was writing it, I realized that while those who had walked those shoes could identify, younger readers would not be able to identify with these sentiments, these emotions, these very real problems.

How many young readers know these feelings? About the same percentage as those who identify with their parents and totally "get" what the older generation tells them.

But if the protag is younger - well, everybody was young once and remembers all those doubts coupled with the certainty of youth. We all remember that brightness before age dimmed our eyes. And we all remember the pains and perils as well as the joys of being young and growing up.

I figured both older and younger readers would be more able to identify with the main protagonist if he were young.

So, that's my reason why.

SusanR · Dec 22, 2005

brokenfingers said:
I recently changed my main protagonist from a man in his mid thirties to a younger protagonist (teens).

The older protag was world weary and suffered from many of the normal pangs that older people do - regrets, disillusionment, worries about health and mortality, doubts, the need for redemption, the feeling that life has passed you by, that you missed your moment, or that you messed up in the past and must now pay the cost etc.

.

Boy, that struck this fifty-year-old as funny. Thirty-five seems too young to be world-weary and disillusioned. People are just hittin' their stride at 35 these days. I'm gettin' old.

SusanR

SC Harrison · Dec 22, 2005

Jamesaritchie said:
No, I'm not kidding. YA books are not without all sorts of severe physical violence these days, and the langauge isn't pristine and pure, either. Nor is such subject matter automatically taboo. The Talisman is no worse in any of these ways that are many YA novels. YA means "Young Adult," not "children."

The library categorized my book as YA solely because of the age of the protagonist (14). When I mentioned some of the content may be too "strong" for that classification, the librarian laughed, and said something like, "You wouldn't believe some of the stuff that's in there."

PeeDee · Dec 22, 2005

SusanR said:
But some YA is just so darned wonderful. Like A WRINKLE IN TIME. Or Lois Lowry's THE GIVER. The protagonists in those stories face extraordinary problems but always within the framework of adolescent development. Josh, in The Giver, has to grow up and navigate by his own moral compass, in opposition to his parents and his whole society. Meg and Calvin, the teens in Wrinkle in Time, feel like misfits--they aren't 'cool' (rad, awesome, groovy, whatever) kids.

Ye' Gods, but I cannot say enough wonderful things about these books. Lois Lowry and Madeline L'Engle are two of my all-time favorite authors, though I think Madeline is probably a bit higher on the list.

Slightly off-topic. I don't know if anyone else here read the Giver when they were younger, but I did, and I got one ending out of it that satisified me up until about a year ago, when I happened to read it again, and realized that since I had gotten older, the ending meant something else entirely. I'm being vague so as not to give it away, mind you.

Meg and Calvin and Charles Wallace are so much fun to read.

Torgo · Dec 22, 2005

There's nobody in Tolkien under the age of about 50, and it never seemed to hurt his popularity with teens. More recently Garth Nix's bestselling Old Kingdom trilogy has protagonists of 18 and 19 years. I do encounter reluctance among childrens editors to take on books with protagonists more than a year or two older than the target audience; that seems like a bit of a bad prejudice to me.

brokenfingers · Dec 22, 2005

I believe Frodo was classified as being in his tweens...

PeeDee · Dec 22, 2005

Nope. If you look at the books, he's very close to (or was it on) his fiftieth birthday that he actually set off from the Shire and began to head for Rivendell. He waited a long time. I dont' remember what anniversary of Bilbo's departure it was on, but it was on one of them, and it quite a while later.

He became much, much younger in the movies and the old (gag) cartoon versions.

brokenfingers · Dec 22, 2005

I don't have the book anymore but I could've sworn the big bash was for was his thirtieth birthday because he was leaving his tweens....

kikazaru · Dec 22, 2005

While there may be a few books out there with a child or teen main character that I, as an adult, find compelling to read, in general I wish to be engaged by a character whose issues that I can relate to. I think that is common to most who enjoy reading fiction - to be able to place theselves in the character's shoes and if not identify, at least be sympathetic to the problems they are going thru. While it may be easier for an adult who remembers their teen years to read a book with a young main character, it is more difficult for a child/teen who has no adult life experience to engage with an adult main character.

Imo teens and children wish to read about others of similar ages because with that age group, they perceive themselves as lacking power, and almost all of those books the character is going thru a situation that they can identify with or if they can't identify with the situation, they will at least use methods kids are familiar with to overcome their problem. It is a form of empowerment however vicarious it may be, to read about kids their own age, who are going thru the same situations and emerge victorious.

jmo of course.

SC Harrison · Dec 22, 2005

brokenfingers said:
I don't have the book anymore but I could've sworn the big bash was for was his thirtieth birthday because he was leaving his tweens....

I thought that was Bilbo's eleventy hundred (or something like that) birthday party. Okay, it looks like I'm going to have to read the trilogy again, which will make it the sixth time since age 12.

See me in 10 years, hon

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