No room for 'passive' and 'weak' underdog MCs?

Hmmm..... I would say no. Quite a lot of novels have an MC who has none of those qualities. Some MCs are downright horrible. But what the MC must have is something interesting about them. Something that connects them to the reader. Why else would they read on?

Is there anything about your MC or her situation that acts as a hook?

It might be a question of presentation. Your MC's goal is to survive and stay under the radar. Your readers think your MC's goal should be to escape. Restate the goal. Show your MC working towards that goal. Show the thought processes that enable her to avoid beatings and being locked up. Show her starting to manipulate her captors so she gets her own way--not being hurt, maybe small concessions or privileges--not because she's weak but because she's tricking them into accepting the weak persona she's projecting.

I want to read about passive and weak main characters.

In fact, I started a whole thread about them.

I am troubled by you stating your MC needs to be uncompelling.

Many characters start off as underdogs, but they should have something in them that makes the reader want to read on. Voice, perhaps, or an inner rage at her predicament. Something that makes her not a damp dishrag.

Just because she's a slave and can't escape is no need for her to be passive in her head. She could dream of strangling the bastard guard who's keeping her, she could start to try to fight back, then realise she needs to bide her time.

It's not it can't be done. It's just you need to handle it right, because it's a fine line.

An underdog protagonist is extremely popular, but underdog and passive are not at all the same thing. Many, many protagonists are underdogs, and this is a good thing. Passive is something else entirely.

A protagonist does not have to be strong, gutsy, smart, attractive, accomplished, witty, etc., but she must be a character the reader can relate to, and she must make an effort to help herself. If she takes too long to make such an effort, you're going to lose readers. Why shouldn't you?

Human traffickers or not, she still has to try to help herself. She may be passive while being watched, but when she isn't, she has to try something. And no situation calls for being mentally passive, calls for making no plans, however hopeless.

There's no need to drag passiveness out forever. If you reach the point where readers say, "For God's sake, do something to help yourself", you've waited way too long.

IdiotsRUs said:

I am troubled by you stating your MC needs to be uncompelling.

Many characters start off as underdogs, but they should have something in them that makes the reader want to read on.

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this.

a character "should" be active, but you can carry the story in other ways. Now, you might have hypersensitive, nitpicky betas who are rule-nazis. Or, and probably more likely, something isn't working for them, and it is at least in part this, so they are latching onto this, but it could also be other issues (the rest is boring, so it is easy to find the time to come to loathe the girl who sits on her ass and doesn't give them anything interesting to read....).

you can have a boring protagonist, but you can't have a boring read. so figure out if they are hung on the active protag. rule, or they're getting bored/bothered enough to start finding faults.

It's hard to tell without reading your piece, but it sounds like you are making things way too easy for your protagonist. She may be passive by nature, but when the traffickers come in and beat her best friend to death, is she just going to sit there?

Or does she have a cockroach friend that someone tries to stomp on? Won't she help it?

If she has no cockroch or human friend to protect, then what does she want? Does she want to escape her traffickers by fantasizing? So then have someone interrupt her fantasy. She must struggle for something, even if the struggle is to be left alone.

If it's all about wanting to be left alone, then make her struggle to make herself less interesting to her captors. Perhaps she has to mutilate her face so they'll lose interest. Or rip out her hair. That will give her something to do. And I think it will hold our interest too.

Do not be nice to your characters. That is the kiss of death to a story.

Hope this helps.

Best,

Jeanne

Jeanne Cavelos
Director
Odyssey Writing Worshops Charitable Trust
www.odysseyworkshop.org

IdiotsRUs said:

Many characters start off as underdogs, but they should have something in them that makes the reader want to read on. Voice, perhaps, or an inner rage at her predicament. Something that makes her not a damp dishrag.

Just because she's a slave and can't escape is no need for her to be passive in her head. She could dream of strangling the bastard guard who's keeping her, she could start to try to fight back, then realise she needs to bide her time.

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This. I'm going to quote from James N Frey's book How To Write A Damn Good Novel, because he says it better than I could.

Most literary agents will tell you there is one type of story they don't ever want to see - even if it is beautifully written and set in an exotic Shangri-la. Crusty olkd editors recoil at the sight of them. Creative writing teachers often break out in hives when one of their students write one. What is this dread monstrocity?

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It's the wimpy housewife story.

The wimpy housewife does little about her problem except suffer for forty or fifty thousand words, until one day she's sparked into action, usually because a neighbour, friend or therapist tells her she ought to, do something.

The problem with the wimpy housewife story is even the potential market rejects them.
Why?
Because it is not possible to sympathize with a character that is so wimpy that all she/he can do is suffer and wallow in self-pity. The problem is not that they are wimpy, but rather that they are 'constipated.' They cannot move. Such characters won't grow unless they take action and engage in conflicts.
To write a damn good novel, the main characters must become dynamic.
A dynamic character is driven. That is, the character, such as Shirley Valentine, wants something desperately.

Constipated wimps only have one dimension, they are long suffering. Dynamic characters have conflicting emotions and desires and are torn apart by strong emotions. Inner emotional fires are raging, fires that pulling dynamic characters in more than one direction. Dynamic characters resolve these inner conflicts by taking actions that will lead to more story conflict and more inner conflict.

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I think your question has been pretty well covered. I think you could start with a "hook" that readers would identify with. The story could start with her in a position where she could stand out, but fails the test. A test with which readers could identify themselves not reacting heroically. It's hard to say without knowing the circumstances, though.

Maybe someone comes in to rob them. She's in shock. While the intruder(s) throw things around, they look at her and tell her to "Sit still." While she watches, she notices a stove poker leaning against a nearby wall and thinks about using it, but can't work up the courage. As they leave, they look at her and laugh. Later, she's punished for not even calling out for help.

Readers could see themselves in the same fix.

Your question reminds me of one story I have about a man in Virginia in the early '40s who finds a naked black girl in his driveway. He's always wanted his very own slave and decides to keep her.

I received flack from a couple of readers who were annoyed by the beginning of the story. If they'd read farther, they'd have seen it was a comedy akin to the tail waving the dog. She twisted him every way but loose. He found owning a slave wasn't the same as Grandpa told him. At the end, a reader would feel sorry for him, not her.

With that story, a few readers became angry before even finding what the story was about. I finally changed the beginning, putting in a spate of action that resulted in her being found that way. With the action still in mind, readers were involved enough in the story to keep reading.

Charlie

llamafarmer said:

Two people have recently critiqued my story and both say my main character is too passive and weak (not weakly written but weak and timid in character).

Problem is, that's precisely how she's meant to be, for a very good reason which doesn't get explained until several chapters in (by which time these critiquers said they would have given up with the story as they disliked her so much). Also, the situation she finds herself in (held captive by people akin to human traffikers) calls for passivity; for the first few chapters she believes there is no hope of escape, and is simply too afraid to fight back in case of repercussions.

I'm not sure what to do, because the plot and planned character arc require that this MC be an underdog who begins in such a way - uncompelling - but the critters hate her (and I'm not exaggerating here). Can anyone advise me how to make her more likeable?

Also, is it simply that no-one wants to read about protagonists who don't fit the typical mold? Does a protagonist have to be aspirational in one way or another; strong, gutsy, smart, attractive, accomplished, witty etc?

Thanks in advance

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I don't there's a problem with a passive or weak MC.

As long as he (or she) is dragged on the journey somehow, that's ok.

He (or she) may become stronger as he changes. Quite normal.

Especially in a short story, you might want a character to change. One way is to show them one way at the beginning, and as strongly as possible -- such as weak. I went overboard with one character, making him a heavily biased kleptomaniac Nazi lover. Over the length of the story he changed, even marrying a Japanese girl and putting Nazi's in jail. Later, I dropped the klepto bit -- too much for a short story.

Like said before, you have to do something early on to make them interesting or to at least capture the reader's interest. Personally, I believe action is best.

Charlie

llamafarmer said:

Two people have recently critiqued my story and both say my main character is too passive and weak (not weakly written but weak and timid in character).

Problem is, that's precisely how she's meant to be, for a very good reason which doesn't get explained until several chapters in (by which time these critiquers said they would have given up with the story as they disliked her so much). Also, the situation she finds herself in (held captive by people akin to human traffikers) calls for passivity; for the first few chapters she believes there is no hope of escape, and is simply too afraid to fight back in case of repercussions.

I'm not sure what to do, because the plot and planned character arc require that this MC be an underdog who begins in such a way

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sight unseen, i totally agree with your critters, i fear. I've seen too many of these wips, and their writers all say some form of this. Thing is, your MC can start out any way she *wants* to, of course. And if your wip requires her to begin her arc that far down, that's fine. But.... It should *not,* imho, be

several chapters in

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before the story's inciting incident~that brief flame of change~takes place. *That*~that thing that happens that starts your character on her march up that arc toward the self she needs to be to get *out* of her deep hole needs to happen in the first five pages, most times, imho. Earlier, if possible. So, again, imho, *start* her, if you like, in that wimpy mode, but don't leave her there. Not even for a half a ch. Or i'd stop reading. Period, i fear.

Also, is it simply that no-one wants to read about protagonists who don't fit the typical mold? Does a protagonist have to be aspirational in one way or another; strong, gutsy, smart, attractive, accomplished, witty etc?

Thanks in advance

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Ya, i think, pretty much. Do i want to live in a boring, whingy, dishrag left out on the counter until she smells suspiciously of fermenting tomatoes? ::shakes head:: And that's what readers do, ya know. We *live* inside the heads of the MCs.

So my advice is to start her *later* in the wip...when she's closer to her initial breakthrough. At least start us at the lip of a substantial crack in her circumstances. In other words, you may be *aware* of her backstory...you *should* be aware of the entire long series of circumstances that got her where she is. But maybe readers don't need to see so much of it before she starts to change.

EDIT: And um...i think chs of someone just taking beatings and such would come across as exploitative, to me. And not in a good way.

cat

I can go along with all kinds of characters provided I can empathize with them.

If you get your reader deep into your character's head so they can hear some of her thought processes, you have the opportunity to "sell" them on her charms.

For example, if she's being passive but actively thinking about what the consequences of acting would be and making a choice not to act, given the circumstances, that would be more relatable.

Another thing that makes me empathize with a character is suffering. If she's cripplingly terrified of what's happening to her, and you show that convincingly enough, then it's easier for the reader to empathize with her being passive.

But here's the thing. She needs to show a spark of what's to come. The reader has to believe that the character arc is possible. Essentially, you need to foreshadow that this character will find her backbone.

The promise that things are going to change is often what keeps readers turning the pages. Make sure you promise your reader, via foreshadowing, that your passive protagonist is going to turn out to be someone they can cheer for.

llamafarmer said:

It's tough because she's passive and timid for a legitimate reason, and I need her to be this way for the first few chapters in order for the plot to evolve effectively, but it's been proved just from replies here that this is not what the vast majority of people want to read.

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Then you need to develop a really great hook. Ishiguro is a genuis at writing passive MC's with a character arc. I would recommend reading some of his work [my favourites are The Remains of the Day and Never Let Me Go.]

I received flack from a couple of readers who were annoyed by the beginning of the story. If they'd read farther, they'd have seen it was a comedy akin to the tail waving the dog.

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Bolding mine.
If you wish to drive an agent to suicide, 'if they'd read further' is a sure-fire way to guarantee it.

Something that stood out to me is that you said the readers hated her as a person. A quiet, shy person, who is scared of doing anything because her captors will hurt her... that's not the sort of person people usually hate beyond all reason. Generally, people will empathise with the situation and root for her to find the strength to get out.

So if she's coming across as completely unlikable, and they have no sympathy for her at all, it implies there's something else going on here. Maybe the situation she's in isn't obvious enough. Maybe she's not a nice piece of work in other ways. Without seeing it, who knows. But it may be what she needs is a softer edge.

As an example, say a fellow captive is ill. If she gives some of her food to that captive, it's a likable thing. If she takes the opportunity to steal the ill captive's food, that's not a likable thing. Both situations are still a person who believes it's hopeless and there's no escape, but it's the smaller action that'd define likability.

Passive can work, if done well. GRRM's ASOIAF series has one quite passive character. Sansa's actions are mostly reactive rather than proactive, she doesn't independently seek solutions to her problems and seems to get pulled into a lot of different people's machinations. It works there for several reasons; her passive nature is consistent with what we know of her personality and her overall personality is relatable. The insight we get into her inner thoughts and emotions makes her passivity, even when it frustrates the reader, interesting. While her actions are passive, her thoughts are not. She might depend on others to rescue her, but she still plans and thinks about being rescued, and when she submits to situations rather than fight them it is clear she is doing so because she believes that to be either the safest course of action or the one least likely to cause further problems down the road.

Also, there are multiple more active POVs in the work to balance her out.

It might help for you to post some short passages of your work in SYW; I'm wondering if either your MC's reasoning and/or emotional state isn't clear or relatable, but I'd be happy to read a little and see.

*edited to add* I can be a passive person myself, a lot of the time. When I'm stressed, anxious, afraid, hurt or in danger, whether immediate or more subtle, I tend to "go away" inside for a bit, rather than facing the problem head on. It's an emotional coping strategy, and I've always done it, so I can potentially relate to a passive character. That said, I'm a completely different person if it's someone else being threatened. Active, aggressive, even a little scary in how much of a 180 my behavioural change is. No one is completely one thing. Some small elements of active behaviour in her, even just little ones, could help.

You say it takes four Chapters for the plot to evolve but by that time it seems folk are bored.

Are you sure you are starting in the right place?

Are you drawing things out too much? It only takes one scene to show a character is timid.

Timid or not, there's a huge difference between doing absolutely nothing, and planning while facing seemingly impossible odds which prevent immediate implementation of any plan.

If it takes a long time for the MC to muster the guts to do anything, are the stakes high enough?

General observations, I'm afraid, but impossible to suggest anything else based on the information given.

What is the 'legitimate reason' for her being timid? If that's not revealed up front, that may be the problem right there.

llamafarmer said:

Thankyou everyone for the amazing replies. This place is fantastic! Too many to respond individually but you've all given me some solid pointers. Special thanks to jcavelos for critting me twice now (well, almost).

Due to the crits I expected the 'uncompelling' element would be a problem here. There are hooks in the plot itself - the plot is, I feel, compelling - which initially I thought would be enough to carry the story (alas, I was naive there) as the character gradually became more compelling herself. Things happen to her, and in fact a lot does go on in her head (or so I feel; others may disagree), but she doesn't muster the guts to do anything until the fourth chapter (after which she becomes less passive and timid).

It's tough because she's passive and timid for a legitimate reason, and I need her to be this way for the first few chapters in order for the plot to evolve effectively, but it's been proved just from replies here that this is not what the vast majority of people want to read.

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Possibly, you could add another character, one who comes into this situation for the first time and it's obvious to your MC that they're going to die pretty quickly because they don't know how to survive. Through your MC teaching them how to stay alive, the reader sees how/why they've become who they are.

I remember reading an SF story that was a classic of the wimpy housewife kind. And I did end up hating the MC because she was such a victim.

I'm struggling with something similar in my current WIP - a character who's been a slave for so long that he's thoroughly accepted the indoctrination of servitude and truly believes that he needs to be a 'perfect' slave. The transition he goes through as he develops self-worth and independence is a major theme of the book, so he really does need to start off as a complete mess.

I HOPE I've solved the issue by having his motivation for the first several chapters be to be the perfect slave. He acts passive, but he isn't mentally passive, because he's constantly reminding himself of how to behave, scolding himself for misbehaviours, reading cues from his captors that give the reader information about how the society works, etc.

Or if you want your character to be even more defeated and genuinely mentally passive, maybe you could take her a step farther and make her interesting by making her mentally unbalanced? If you convey her thoughts, they MIGHT just be mehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh for four chapters, or they might be mehhhh...those dust bunnies are hopping towards me...mehhhhh...his chin looks like that hill in the backyard when we were all-No! don't think about that! hopping bunnies!.... mehhhh... etc.

Okay, that was a brutal example, but maybe it gets the idea across? You can give the reader SOMETHING to intrigue us, even if we don't technically LIKE the character.

I'd worry less about passivity and more about whether the character has stakes in the story. You say she's a captive, but does she care about that? Is she doing anything about it? Or is she just moping around waiting to be rescued? More importantly, does she have something important to gain or lose?

Sometimes a passive, dishrag of a character just doesn't care about her problems enough to make us care, and that's where reader indifference comes in.

Think about The Dude in The Big Lebowski. He's passive and so non-confrontational that when thugs break into his apartment and dunk his head in the toilet, he doesn't even fight back. Yet when they pee on his rug, he decides he's going to address the issue. It's watching what happens when this pacifist-to-the-core character steps out of his comfort zone and takes action to set things right that makes the story great.

I see no reason why your MC can't be timid and weak. Just like in life we gravitate towards people who have certain personality traits, we do the same with characters in novels. If your critters don't like your MC, this may be what's happening here. If you had a different person read it (say, someone like kuwisdelu), he may tell you he likes your MC. Basically what I'm saying is that, if your presentation of the character is well-done, readers who like your MC will wait to find out what made him/her this way.

With some novels I've read, I couldn't make it past the first couple of chapters because I couldn't stand the MCs in them, yet some of these novels were best sellers.

________
My Blog

Try putting in something likable about her. It's fine that she's weak and passive, but the reader needs to be able to like her and sympathize. If we're just immediately shown a girl being held captive and know nothing about her, there's no reason for us to read on. But if you show her say helping a puppy find a home and she's abducted while doing that, then we have something we can like about her--we can relate to her and sympathize with her. Show us more than just her being weak and passive.

Even if the character actions are seen as passive and weak, there has to be something for the reader to latch onto, something for them to root for. Perhaps she is submissive physically, but secretly daydreams about cracking the skulls of her captors. Maybe she just fumes in her head about her situation; she's hopeless, she doesn't think anything will change, but she's still angry about it. This gives us something to relate to other than just, "Oh, poor me, woe is me, everything is hopeless, I think I'll just cower in the corner here until they do me in." If your character stagnates, your story stagnates. I'm sure someone has already mentioned this, but I didn't read through the thread, so this is just my initial reaction. Hope it helps!