for even vs. even for

In that sentence "even" is an adverb, and as such, can go in a number of positions. It depends on what you want it to modify. Each gives a different meaning.I have a vague sense that "berated himself even for" isn't correct. I can't quite explain why, though. Other adverbs do work in that position, but then they point back at the verb, not forward at the prepositional phrase.

evangaline said:

Could someone please explain the difference in meaning between "for even" and "even for" as in:
He berated himself even for that miniscule emotion.
He berated himself for even that miniscule emotion.

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Choice two is correct.

evangaline said:

Could someone please explain the difference in meaning between "for even" and "even for" as in:
He berated himself even for that miniscule emotion.
He berated himself for even that miniscule emotion.

Click to expand...

This one's kinda tricky for me. Not certain of this, but I'm thinking that perhaps both could be correct, and each has a slightly different meaning, and the first example needs a comma.

"He berated himself, even for that minscule emotion," suggests to me that he berated himself for many things *at that time,* even for something small: the miniscule emotion.

"He berated himself for even that miniscule emotion," suggests to me that over a period of time he has berated himself for many things, and at this particular point in time, he even berated himself over something small: the miniscule emotion.

Maybe?

Both are fine, IMO. Both have the same meaning, to me. Much like 'only', you'll find people like Jamesaritchie who decry certain uses. M-W says:

Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage said:

If your sentence is complex enough to cause possible confusion when read silently, without the assistance of the voice, put the 'even' in front of the word or phrase it modifies.

If your sentence is [...] simple [...], normal speech placement of 'even' is unlikely to cause confusion.

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evangaline said:

Could someone please explain the difference in meaning between "for even" and "even for" as in:
He berated himself even for that miniscule emotion.
He berated himself for even that miniscule emotion.

Click to expand...

Very slightly different.

I would assume that the guy in sentence one frequently berated himself for various things--wrong choice of words, wrong clothes, being mean to his cat--and even for that miniscule emotion.

The guy in sentence two berates himself every time he feels emotion--even if the emotion is miniscule.

But I wouldn't depend on that miniscule difference to carry those meanings to the reader. It's just that I'd be more likely to use sentence one in situation one and sentence two in situation two.

(Only I probably wouldn't use miniscule/minuscule because I always have to look up the spelling.)

evangaline said:

Could someone please explain the difference in meaning between "for even" and "even for" as in:
He berated himself even for that miniscule emotion.
He berated himself for even that miniscule emotion.

Click to expand...

I'd say in the former the character does copious amounts of beratement (is that a word?), even down to that miniscule emotion. In the latter, it's less clear how much beratement is going on, but the miniscule emotion was enough to merit some.