Vague critique statements that drive you bonkers

mfarraday · Feb 17, 2012

ok, i want to know what drives other AW's crazy as far as receiving critiques go.

the biggest problem is when i see someone saying (not necessarily to my own piece): why should i care about this? make me care about him/her.

um, indeed. (my inner monologue always replies.) why SHOULD you care?

what if it's not your favorite genre that i am writing in?
what if you missed a lot of character development because you didn't read the last installment? (which is perfectly ok, but maybe that's the place where i 'made you care.')

define how to: make someone care.

i don't get it.

there could be a multitude of reasons that you don't care. you could be in a bad mood. it could be simple as that.

and other readers DID care. i get wide ranges of opinions on what i write. i get rave reviews and i get roasted completely, both. so i hit it on the nail in some cases, and with other readers, i completely miss the mark.

doesn't it sometimes just depend on what type of person you are, and what type of person *I* am?

maybe my style rankles you, but maybe for the next person they really like it.

so anyway, i find the statement 'i don't see why i should care' about a certain character/plot point/story - to be extremely vague and unhelpful, IF it's not accompanied by tips on how the reader thinks the plot/character/dialogue can/should be changed to MAKE them care. in other words, if you don't tell me WHY i lost you, i can't fix it.

does this make sense?

am i complaining too much?

i get a lot of great reviews on my work (none here yet.) and i like the criticism too, it's helpful and it always makes me see things i didn't even think about.

but this one statement is unfair, IMHO.

what do you think?

jaksen · Feb 17, 2012

No. I think you've got a legitimate concern here. Like, how the heck do I know what YOU care about. You care about babies and being kind to elders? Well, sorry, that's not what I'm writing about. You care about love and kindness always being rewarded? Well, since I'm writing sort of a black comedy, noirish mystery - sorry, I'm not there either.

So I agree it's a dumb thing for any critic to write: Ummm, tell me why I should care about your MC and the trouble she's in?

Ummm, tell me why I should care whether you care?

A good critique should go into a little more detail (or a lot more) about why a piece of writing is failing to hold a reader's interest.

imo

heza · Feb 17, 2012

I think it's still a valid critique. It's no more vague than "This wasn't interesting to me" or "I wasn't hooked." What these critiques tell us is the reader didn't care about the character and wasn't interested in the scene. That's valuable information.

But it's not the critiquer's job to tell someone how to write the story so it works. If you get a vague critique, then it's your job to analyze your work and make sure you're addressing things. If several people say they don't care about a character, then see if you're doing what you should be with the narrative and character development; if you can't tell, go read things that made you care about the characters and figure out why they worked.

"Why should I care?" says "this doesn't have that special something; dig deeper." But the reader isn't obligated to tell you where to dig. Besides, it's your world; you know better where everything's hidden, anyway.

ETA: If it's obvious the critiquer isn't your target audience and that plays a huge role in their dissatisfaction, then ignore the crit.

Dr.Gonzo · Feb 17, 2012

I'll have a think about this. One thing that drives me bonkers:

I didn't like the story but I'm not a fan of the genre.

Stop wasting bandwidth then.

quicklime · Feb 17, 2012

jaksen said:
No. I think you've got a legitimate concern here. Like, how the heck do I know what YOU care about. You care about babies and being kind to elders? Well, sorry, that's not what I'm writing about. You care about love and kindness always being rewarded? Well, since I'm writing sort of a black comedy, noirish mystery - sorry, I'm not there either.

So I agree it's a dumb thing for any critic to write: Ummm, tell me why I should care about your MC and the trouble she's in?

Ummm, tell me why I should care whether you care?

A good critique should go into a little more detail (or a lot more) about why a piece of writing is failing to hold a reader's interest.

imo

I happen to believe a lot of what jacksen says, and no disrespect intended, but I partially disagree with this....

I spend a lot of time in QLH and sometimes you don't even know enough about the story because the query is so vague--after three paragraphs of "Ralph must make a decision; one that could cost him everything." with nothing concrete, other than the extremely unclarifying trick of saying "what is this about....no, i mean, what the HELL is this about?" and just adding an expletive, there really isn't much to go on there.

I also think, to some extent, there are times critiquers will refrain from saying too much because they believe the OP should or must be thinking about this for themselves.

Note neither of those are absolutes, but sometimes there's too little to work with to even say "you should to this", sometimes there are reasons to fear that you could be leading the person even further astray, sometimes you may feel the poster either needs to answer this for themselves or is getting way too lazy.

So I would partially amend that to "you have every right to come back and ask for clarification, and hopefully you could get some, but not always." It certainly never hurts to ask....

Boston Steve · Feb 17, 2012

When a critter asks why they should care, often what they're really saying is that the character didn't strike them as compelling. Either what the character wanted didn't strike the critter as strong enough, or you as the writer didn't turn the screws on the character tightly enough to make them squirm.

mfarraday · Feb 17, 2012

heza said:
I think it's still a valid critique. It's no more vague than "This wasn't interesting to me" or "I wasn't hooked." What these critiques tell us is the reader didn't care about the character and wasn't interested in the scene. That's valuable information.

But it's not the critiquer's job to tell someone how to write the story so it works. If you get a vague critique, then it's your job to analyze your work and make sure you're addressing things. If several people say they don't care about a character, then see if you're doing what you should be with the narrative and character development; if you can't tell, go read things that made you care about the characters and figure out why they worked.

"Why should I care?" says "this doesn't have that special something; dig deeper." But the reader isn't obligated to tell you where to dig. Besides, it's your world; you know better where everything's hidden, anyway.

ETA: If it's obvious the critiquer isn't your target audience and that plays a huge role in their dissatisfaction, then ignore the crit.

i think there IS another side of this, and you've hit the nail on the head....i've read pieces myself that were very vague and wandering and didn't really hook me, and you're right, it wasn't my business to tell them how to change it. but sometimes i really get the feeling - after i read the same person say 'i just don't care' five critiques in a row, to different pieces, or if i get the feeling the person is missing a big gap b/c they didn't read my previous chapter - then i feel like the question is unfair.

i think we all need to do our critiques with a grain of salt. sometimes there are things missing from what we've read and we have to keep in mind that we're only seeing a PART of a story, not the whole thing.

i think critique-rs sometimes forget that.

thanks for listening,

M.

quicklime · Feb 17, 2012

Dr.Gonzo said:
I'll have a think about this. One thing that drives me bonkers:

I didn't like the story but I'm not a fan of the genre.

Stop wasting bandwidth then.

this reminds me of the people who walk into a thread that is clear in its direction, deliberately seeking it out, knowing it will offend the hell out of them, and then throw their hands up and cry about the injustice of it all....

that's not as big a thing here, but in some of the other forums i hung out in you could just tell by some thread titles that

a) certain poster(s) were going to hate the thread,

b) they were going to find it anyway, and

c)once they did they were gonna go all Pollyanna about it and play the victim

if it isn't your thing, walk away.

heza · Feb 17, 2012

Dr.Gonzo said:
I'll have a think about this. One thing that drives me bonkers:

I didn't like the story but I'm not a fan of the genre.

Stop wasting bandwidth then.

Oh, that's a good one. On those sites where people tell you whether they would have turned the page, your "no" is completely pointless if you know full well you wouldn't have even been browsing the section to begin with...

mfarraday · Feb 17, 2012

Boston Steve said:
When a critter asks why they should care, often what they're really saying is that the character didn't strike them as compelling. Either what the character wanted didn't strike the critter as strong enough, or you as the writer didn't turn the screws on the character tightly enough to make them squirm.

i think you're right about that. i often find i have trouble doing what Stephen King said - 'murder your darlings' - creating conflict for my characters, making them uncomfortable etc. and in that case, i think it can be true that i didn't make the person reading care. and i understand it in that regard.

scarletpeaches · Feb 17, 2012

Boston Steve said:
When a critter asks why they should care, often what they're really saying is that the character didn't strike them as compelling. Either what the character wanted didn't strike the critter as strong enough, or you as the writer didn't turn the screws on the character tightly enough to make them squirm.

How do, Sir. Venturing out of the dungeon, are we? And a jolly good thing it is, too!

Good to see you here.

Now, back on topic.

Yes, this.

I once gave a crit asking, "Why should I care about the MC?"

Reason? She was crying on the first page. I don't give a flying fuckeroony about someone crying if I don't know them or their situation.

You have to get the reader invested, or they'll walk away and find another book to read.

Bufty · Feb 17, 2012

Most submissions here for critique are of the opening pages and if after reading the first few pages a critter has seen no reason to care about the character or connect or empathise with the character it seems a perfectly valid question to me.

If the question is raised after someone has read Chapter 7 but no previous chapters it would appear to be an odd question but perhaps the reader didn't notice or realise it was not an opening chapter.

mfarraday · Feb 17, 2012

scarletpeaches said:
How do, Sir. Venturing out of the dungeon, are we? And a jolly good thing it is, too! Good to see you here.

Now, back on topic.

Yes, this.

I once gave a crit asking, "Why should I care about the MC?"

Reason? She was crying on the first page. I don't give a flying fuckeroony about someone crying if I don't know them or their situation.

You have to get the reader invested, or they'll walk away and find another book to read.

i agree with this.

but i just feel that sometimes critiquers only want to read the interesting, heart thumping parts.

and if you post a descriptive part that is getting the reader/character from point A to point B, then you're going to be roasted for writing a narrative.

mfarraday · Feb 17, 2012

Bufty said:
Most submissions here for critique are of the opening pages and if after reading the first few pages a critter has seen no reason to care about the character or connect or empathise with the character it seems a perfectly valid question to me.

If the question is raised after someone has read Chapter 7 but no previous chapters it would appear to be an odd question but perhaps the reader didn't notice or realise it was not an opening chapter.

i agree that you must hook a reader and that most readers will put a book/story down after they haven't been reeled in, in the first scene or couple of paragraphs. i understand that, definitely.

scarletpeaches · Feb 17, 2012

mfarraday said:
i agree with this.

but i just feel that sometimes critiquers only want to read the interesting, heart thumping parts.

and if you post a descriptive part that is getting the reader/character from point A to point B, then you're going to be roasted for writing a narrative.

You won't be if it's interesting. Having an unknown character crying (for example) isn't.

Make your scenes do double duty. They should at the very least expose character or propel plot. The best scenes do both at once.

Bufty · Feb 17, 2012

That's not what I said.

I said the reader must find a connection/empathy with the character within the first few pages and, if they don't, the question Why should I care? is a perfectly valid one.

And if more than one person makes the same comment it's usually worth a second thought.

mfarraday said:
i agree that you must hook a reader and that most readers will put a book/story down after they haven't been reeled in, in the first scene or couple of paragraphs. i understand that, definitely.

buz · Feb 17, 2012

after i read the same person say 'i just don't care' five critiques in a row, to different pieces, or if i get the feeling the person is missing a big gap b/c they didn't read my previous chapter - then i feel like the question is unfair.

It's not "unfair". It's just an opinion. If they say the same thing all the time to different pieces, then it's unhelpful, and you ignore it. No need to sweat it.

i think we all need to do our critiques with a grain of salt. sometimes there are things missing from what we've read and we have to keep in mind that we're only seeing a PART of a story, not the whole thing.

i think critique-rs sometimes forget that.

Or, the other way round: Take all critiques with a grain of salt.

Personally I don't expect to be taken seriously, and if I remember to do so I try to include a disclaimer to the effect of "I don't necessarily know what I'm talking about so don't take this too seriously blah blah". But you should assume that all critiques come with this disclaimer as implicit. I think it's an unspoken understanding that the critter hasn't seen your whole work and therefore might be missing something, and that the critter is submitting to you a subjective opinion, and that therefore you can safely ignore comments that you find unhelpful. You get to decide whether that critique is useless to you or not, but you don't get to decide what they say. Remember, most of them are just trying to help--and are doing you a favor. The few that aren't...aren't worth paying attention to. Whee free speech

quicklime · Feb 17, 2012

mfarraday said:
i agree with this.

but i just feel that sometimes critiquers only want to read the interesting, heart thumping parts.

and if you post a descriptive part that is getting the reader/character from point A to point B, then you're going to be roasted for writing a narrative.

write a better narrative.

that sounds glib, but its true. I saw a review once where someone said they'd rather watch two hours of Robert Downey thinking than Stallone in a thriller, or something like that, and its true (for me anyway) because he happens to be fascinating. You don't need bullets.

heza · Feb 17, 2012

Other types of critique I really don't find helpful are those that are entirely based on personal bias.

"I hated the character because he reminds me of my ex boyfriend."

"I don't like the name of the horse because my cousin named her dog that."

"This was a terribly written sex scene because I don't like to do it in that position."

And so forth.

Bufty · Feb 17, 2012

This thread is nearing the junction, where the points may or may not have been switched to the track to the disused mining shaft.

Theo81 · Feb 17, 2012

I'm one of these irritating people who tell people to make me care when I'm critiquing; Heza and Quick have pretty much hit on my reasons for saying so.

When I tell somebody to make me care, it's usually because I've reached the end of the piece and I have to scroll back up before I can find anything to say about it. Even though I've just read your query (or whatever), I can't remember it. So, you need to do something which will give me some emotional investment in the piece.

It doesn't mean action. It means: give me a reason to read this. It *could* be action, or it could be character, it could be plot or it could just be damn good writing.

It means: Just what is it that makes your novel so different, so appealing?

Then again, it could just be I'm not going to like this book. When that's clear, I usually say so or don't critique. You shouldn't listen to everybody. Listen to everything and decide what you agree with. Not what's right, what you *agree* with.

My most critique bugbear is when people think the story should go in the direction they would have taken it. You don't have to like the direction, I just want to know if it reads legitimately, or overly predictably.

Boston Steve · Feb 17, 2012

mfarraday said:
i agree with this.

but i just feel that sometimes critiquers only want to read the interesting, heart thumping parts.

and if you post a descriptive part that is getting the reader/character from point A to point B, then you're going to be roasted for writing a narrative.

Are you familiar with the scene-and-sequel approach to story structure popularized by Dwight Swain? It shouldn't take much google-fu to find it, but it basically boils down to a scene is where shit happens, and a sequel is where characters reacts to shit.

Sequels are also where characterization takes place. It's where a flighty character gets to fall apart, an angst-filled character gets to be all anxious and insecure, and an indecisive character waffles around and avoids making a tough decision.

Sequels also control the pacing. Shorter sequels lead to faster paced stories. Longer ones slow the story down, but they're also what gives the character heart: make us care about him or her, in other words. Getting the balance right is where the art lies.

mfarraday · Feb 17, 2012

thank you to everyone who is posting. everything i've read is useful and helpful.

i am lurking for now. sorry if i misinterpreted anything anyone said.

i really like reading everyone's perspective on this.

i look forward to posting my own work here someday soon.

mfarraday · Feb 17, 2012

Boston Steve said:
Are you familiar with the scene-and-sequel approach to story structure popularized by Dwight Swain? It shouldn't take much google-fu to find it, but it basically boils down to a scene is where shit happens, and a sequel is where characters reacts to shit.

i will look it up, thanks.

kuwisdelu · Feb 17, 2012

scarletpeaches said:
You won't be if it's interesting. Having an unknown character crying (for example) isn't.

Make your scenes do double duty. They should at the very least expose character or propel plot. The best scenes do both at once.

I must now write an opening scene that starts with a character crying that exposes character, propels plot, gets one to care about the character, and is interesting.

Vague critique statements that drive you bonkers

Time Traveler

Caped Codder

Wonderfully Irreverent

all out of fucks to give

Time Traveler

all out of fucks to give

Time Traveler

Where have the last ten years gone?

Time Traveler

Time Traveler

Where have the last ten years gone?

can't stop hemorrhaging emojis

all out of fucks to give

Where have the last ten years gone?

Time Traveler

Time Traveler

Revolutionize the World