A question of a hero's morality...

TheRob1 · Feb 12, 2012

So, here's the set-up.

The hero in my current WIP got in a little trouble with the law. It's kind of a western fantasy and he was involved in a shooting. Now, that shouldn't really be a huge deal in a western setting, except that because he is in a small town where he doesn't know anyone and the guy he shot has friends odds are that any trial would go against him.

Now, there are a few important differences between the American west and my setting:
It's not actually a democracy, but a represented monarchy.
Instead of judges trials are presided over by the local lord (though they still have juries)
Also, it's legal for people to plea bargain for their freedom in exchange for performing duties for the lord of the land (kind of like the suicide squad in DCU where villains can get released from their life/death sentences in exchange for working for the U.S. gov't on dangerous missions).

So, that's what the hero has done. He's avoiding going to jail by trading work for the local lord as a hired gun. So, here's where the question comes in: He's not being paid for the job (because his pay is his freedom). The local Lord discovered some ruins and he needs them investigated. The ruins were built by a fallen civilization referred to as 'the ancients'. While snooping around in them he finds some treasures some of them are small enough that he can pocket them or stash them away and come back later. Would that be right for him to do?
On the one hand my mc has no real loyalty to the noble beyond his promise to do the job and it's understood that whatever's found in them is the lord's property.

On the other hand: he's being sent on a dangerous errand if the mc gives the lord the bulk of the treasure he finds, will the lord even miss a small amount of loot that he doesn't even know exists?

WinterDusk14 · Feb 12, 2012

It, really depends on your MC's personality. If he is a too-good guy, pocketing some treasure would depend how desperate he is. How does he pay for his food and all that.

As for the lord noticing if something's are missing. If he is a greedy man, he might probably accuse the MC holding back. Or, maybe there are other reasons why the lord had the MC loot the place, maybe there was a specific artifact? And not finding it in the presented loot may cause the lord to be suspicious and frisk the MC.

robjvargas · Feb 12, 2012

Would it be right?

I hate to sound unfriendly, but isn't that a question you have to answer?

Under the rules you've presented, that's theft.

What does your main character think about theft?

RichardGarfinkle · Feb 12, 2012

To expand on the question.

What is the cultural view of this situation in the society you've created?

Does your MC look at this as a situation to make his situation right with the society or does he see himself as being exploited by the local lord for his benefit?

Is there a social code of honor for someone in his position or is it simply a plea bargain as we understand the term (wherein a criminal trades something in order to get a lighter sentence)?

Does your MC have to take some sort of vow to the local lord and if so how does he see that vow?

Fundamentally, you have created a situation where matters of right and wrong can be explored and your MC's personality can be shown to the readers based on how he sees the right and wrong of this situation.

TheRob1 · Feb 12, 2012

robjvargas said:
Would it be right?

I hate to sound unfriendly, but isn't that a question you have to answer?

Under the rules you've presented, that's theft.

What does your main character think about theft?

I guess the mc would be against theft, but he's also a little pissed off at the predicament he's in.

However, Fantasy heroes do have a long standing tradition of playing by their own rules, which is why I'm turning to all of you for some feedback.

Also, WinterDusk, the mc's been surviving up to this point in the story by working as a trapper and prospector.

Scott Seldon · Feb 12, 2012

Is you MC more like Han Solo or Luke Skywalker? Han wouldn't hesitate, while Luke probably wouldn't do it.

TheRob1 · Feb 12, 2012

RichardGarfinkle said:
To expand on the question.

What is the cultural view of this situation in the society you've created?

Does your MC look at this as a situation to make his situation right with the society or does he see himself as being exploited by the local lord for his benefit?

Is there a social code of honor for someone in his position or is it simply a plea bargain as we understand the term (wherein a criminal trades something in order to get a lighter sentence)?

Does your MC have to take some sort of vow to the local lord and if so how does he see that vow?

Fundamentally, you have created a situation where matters of right and wrong can be explored and your MC's personality can be shown to the readers based on how he sees the right and wrong of this situation.

It is a legal plea bargain (service traded for freedom) there's no honor or vow involved.

There can be no question, though: the Lord is definitely exploiting the situation, but he's not necessarily a 'bad guy'. He's a powerful man who wishes to expand his power. What he is doing is legal by both the letter and spirit of that particular law. (The law does favor the nobility in that respect)

Alexys · Feb 12, 2012

If you just need him to tweak the lord's tail for some reason, how about having him hide a few items and then bargain with the lord for payment before he'll reveal the location? If the items stay in the ruins your character hasn't *technically* committed theft, careful wording of the plea bargain can ensure that he's under no obligation to actually bring anything out (just look around), and he gets his cash, too.

PEBKAC2 · Feb 12, 2012

Another point is, why is he pocketing some of the loot? Because he thinks he deserves it? Or because his mother's ranch is being foreclosed on? Or his fiance's mother and father won't allow him to marry their daughter until they believe he has enough money yo provide for her? Or, maybe he feels bad for the family of the man he killed, and knows that although the Lord in this case is getting all the benefits of the deal he made, the family of the man he killed will soon be out on the streets because he killed the breadwinner. So he's going to pass some loot their way.

Dave Hardy · Feb 12, 2012

It depends on the effect you want. Is this grim & gritty, with a cynical villain-hero, or is it about white-hats v black-hats. Or is your character an example of values dissonance, living by a code that allows him to kill over a trivial matter of honor, but disdaining pilfering? There are so many variables, only you can truly answer your question.

MattW · Feb 12, 2012

What is his explicit obligation to this lord? If it is to explore these ruins, and attempt to return anything of interest, then maybe he's clear. If he is being sent specifically to clear any and all potential artifacts, then he's in violation of his contract, and could face any penalties for a repeat offender or oathbreaker. It could also depend on the lord, and his experience with other rough people - some just won't be offended for taking a fee - price of business etc.

If my characters were to do something like that, the artifacts might end up being the only cursed ones...

TheRob1 · Feb 12, 2012

Thanks for all the feedback.

I will add a little detail on the scenario:
1. He didn't actually kill anyone, he shot him. The man survived (thanks to the town doctor). Still, shooting someone is a crime so the MC was looking at 3-5 years. He shot the man in a combination of self-defense and defending another.

2. His obligation is merely to clean out the ruins.

3. There have been some comments about wording and whether or not something is technically stealing: This isn't a deal w/ a genie where an issue can be skirted on a technicality. The Lord arbitrated the deal and has the means to enforce the deal based on the intent of the deal, even if it violates the exact letter of the deal.

I do want the MC to be a white-hat. I have nothing against gritty heroes (and I'm planning on having one of the other p.o.v.s be a little darker), but I want the MC to be a straight up good guy.

Ian Isaro · Feb 12, 2012

I can give you one reaction: I don't particularly care. Whether the MC pockets the treasure or gives it would not greatly affect my opinion of him, and I might be irritated if he spent too long agonizing over the decision.

Taking the treasure from starving orphans is one thing, or acting in a way that damages social support systems. But when it comes to technical cheating between rich people, it really doesn't strike me as that important of a moral issue.

Wiskel · Feb 12, 2012

Here's my suspicion.

You want your hero to be a "good guy."

You think taking the goods is theft and a good guy wouldn't do it but while writing the scene you think your character wants to.You're now looking for a way to be reassured that he can take the stuff and still be the hero you want him to be.

I suspect this because you're trying very hard to paint a picture of him being a victim of the local system so he can be in trouble without having actually done anything wrong and now he's on his second "crime" and you still want him to be innocent.

There's no answer to your question beyond saying he's your character so only you know what he'll do and what his personal moral code is, but it sounds like you're on your way to developing him as a complex and flawed character and that's got to be a good thing.

Scott Seldon said:
Is you MC more like Han Solo or Luke Skywalker? Han wouldn't hesitate, while Luke probably wouldn't do it.

Many people would argue Han is a more developed character than Luke, and if Star Wars taught us anything it was that a society of philosophical jedi following a strict moral code in the pursuit of harmony was less interesting than a smuggler in a beat-up old ship trying to stay one step ahead of trouble.

Craig

RichardGarfinkle · Feb 13, 2012

There's another layer to this particular moral quandary. Your MC is looting some place. Why is that looting not theft if theft from the lord is theft?

robjvargas · Feb 13, 2012

TheRob1 said:
I do want the MC to be a white-hat. I have nothing against gritty heroes (and I'm planning on having one of the other p.o.v.s be a little darker), but I want the MC to be a straight up good guy.

Well, then he's a rule-stickler, isn't he? He knows the deal that he's struck. He knows those items belong to the lord by law and by the ethics of that society, doesn't he?

I think you're answering your own question. He might need to struggle with the temptation, but he knows what society and his moral code demands of him.

LOG · Feb 13, 2012

@OP

Whether he would take them or not is something only you know, he's your character.
Also, you should question the scene itself, are the baubles in some way relevant to the plot or character development? If not I'd consider dropping the whole scene.

Buffysquirrel · Feb 13, 2012

*looks at definition of theft* nope, hiding the stuff where the guy can't find it is still theft

WriteMinded · Feb 13, 2012

Buffysquirrel said:
*looks at definition of theft* nope, hiding the stuff where the guy can't find it is still theft

BUT, does the MC have a dictionary with him?

Buffysquirrel · Feb 13, 2012

WriteMinded said:
BUT, does the MC have a dictionary with him?

C'mon! Who leaves the house without a dictionary?!

TheRob1 · Feb 13, 2012

Thanks for the feedback. I have reached the decision that the MC will not be taking a cut of the goods for himself. He made a deal and he is a man of his word.

I honestly had to pause when I was writing that scene because I could see it going in either direction. I'll admit that as much as I love the fantasy genre, I don't consider myself anywhere near well read in it these days. I've read a lot of westerns and a lot of military sci-fi and even a few police procedurals and every genre has its do's and don'ts. That's why I turned to all of you for input.

As far as why the distinction of why looting the place wouldn't be theft, but taking the goods that the lord claimed is theft allow this basic metaphor: The ruins are mine and in that mine is a vein of precious metals. You go into town to file a claim, so the mine belongs to you. When you come back there is a problem. Coyotes are living in your mine. You don't have the tools you need to get rid of them so you hire a hired gun and agree to a fee (in the case of the MC the fee was his freedom). The hired gun isn't stealing from the Coyotes, it's not their mine. In this metaphor, you are the lord.

Are the baubles themselves important? Only in that they gave me the opportunity to really examine the morality of the character and it was a fascinating examination. This small adventure will only probably represent a single chapter to two chapters of the total work and to be honest, at this juncture the MC isn't actually even involved in the main plot yet. However, it does add a little background to the world at large and it lets us know our hero before he's actually involved in the main plot. Otherwise he'd probably just turn up about 1/3 of the way in the book. So, some of you might be wondering how I justify having my MC be basically a vagrant trapper for the first part of the book and the answer to that is simple: he has family ties to the villain.

glutton · Feb 14, 2012

If he shot the guy in self-defense/defense of another, he could easily justify the "theft" to himself by thinking it isn't fair he has to be punished for the shooting? That's how I would feel for sure at least.

Lucas · Feb 14, 2012

TheRob1 said:
So, here's the set-up.

The hero in my current WIP got in a little trouble with the law. It's kind of a western fantasy and he was involved in a shooting. Now, that shouldn't really be a huge deal in a western setting, except that because he is in a small town where he doesn't know anyone and the guy he shot has friends odds are that any trial would go against him.

Now, there are a few important differences between the American west and my setting:
It's not actually a democracy, but a represented monarchy.
Instead of judges trials are presided over by the local lord (though they still have juries)
Also, it's legal for people to plea bargain for their freedom in exchange for performing duties for the lord of the land (kind of like the suicide squad in DCU where villains can get released from their life/death sentences in exchange for working for the U.S. gov't on dangerous missions).

So, that's what the hero has done. He's avoiding going to jail by trading work for the local lord as a hired gun. So, here's where the question comes in: He's not being paid for the job (because his pay is his freedom). The local Lord discovered some ruins and he needs them investigated. The ruins were built by a fallen civilization referred to as 'the ancients'. While snooping around in them he finds some treasures some of them are small enough that he can pocket them or stash them away and come back later. Would that be right for him to do?
On the one hand my mc has no real loyalty to the noble beyond his promise to do the job and it's understood that whatever's found in them is the lord's property.

On the other hand: he's being sent on a dangerous errand if the mc gives the lord the bulk of the treasure he finds, will the lord even miss a small amount of loot that he doesn't even know exists?

That depends if your hero is a "white knight" or a "dark knight".

I would say that the real matter is whether he's personally interested in the treasure or not, and what is consistent with his personality.

The real matter what makes a hero for me is how loyal the hero is to his friends.

A question of a hero's morality...

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