reading fees

I refuse to pay reading fees. Fortunately, i primarily write spec fic, and very few of those markets charge fees. I think it's a hideous practice.

gettingby said:

What do you guys think of publications charging fees to submit work online?

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Pay someone to consider my work? Fuck that. I don't need that kind of abuse, I've got people lining up to abuse me. There are plenty of markets which will reject me for free. I'll stick with those.

Not a chance. It's hard enough to earn money writing. I'm not throwing my hard-earned cash into a black hole. Besides, if such publications reject at a steady rate, they can earn a living on the fees alone. That is just wrong.

Also, it cuts into their incentive to accept, because acceptance would cost them money...

Yog's Law, always.

Sai said:

Pay someone to consider my work? Fuck that. I don't need that kind of abuse, I've got people lining up to abuse me. There are plenty of markets which will reject me for free. I'll stick with those.

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Lol! Yeah
I'll carry on getting rejected for free, too.

Doesn't bother me as long as a long list of criteria are met. The option to submit free through postal mail is one. (Not all places still take postal mail submissions, though; I don't think Narrative does anymore, but I'm not sure.)

Another is cost. If the cost is too high, it's just not worth it to me. If I want to submit, I will go the post office rather than pay it. But if it's a place that doesn't offer the mail option - well, no dice.

There are a couple of other things that figure in for me as well.

So, theoretically, I don't have a problem with it. Practically speaking, there is not one place I've seen that has a model with which I'm 100% comfortable. (Though I don't have to be 100% comfortable to be willing to submit; I've paid the fees before. I paid one to Subtropics.)

Full disclosure: I'm planning on launching a journal that requires the fees for electronic subs, but I'm also making sure that all the things that make me uncomfortable in other zines are not part of my business model. And I'll pay the authors at semi-pro rates to start. (More if it ends up doing well enough to make it feasible. But if the project crashes and burns, well, I'll close up shop.) Anyway, that's still an uncertain number of months away.

Oh! And as for when the fees started - I can't say for sure, but I do know that the first time I saw it for regular electronic submissions and not a contest or anything was about three years ago. I don't know how long Narrative has done it, since I don't check in on that one often. The fee there is sky high now; I don't know if this was always the case.

Sai said:

Pay someone to consider my work? Fuck that. I don't need that kind of abuse, I've got people lining up to abuse me. There are plenty of markets which will reject me for free. I'll stick with those.

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QFT.

I consider reversing the cash flow of the publishing model about as desirable as reversing the flow of my lavatory.

Money should always flow to the writer, never away. Paying a reading fee is not only stupid, it means you're submitting to a magazine that has such a low circulation rate that even if they take your story, no one will likely read it.

Paying a magazine to read my stories? I can't think of anything more foolish. Seriously, it's nothing short of theft, complete disrespect for writers, and absolutely no confidence in your own ability to find enough readers for your mag to pay your way.

Reading fees have been around for at least forty years, and nothing has changed. They still suck money from the very people who actually make the magazine worth reading.

What about Glimmer Train, for instance, that has a contest every couple of months with an entry fee? I admit, I've been wondering about entering..

Pemako said:

What about Glimmer Train, for instance, that has a contest every couple of months with an entry fee? I admit, I've been wondering about entering..

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I have no knowledge of Glimmer Train specifically, but a fee-based contest is simply a money making scheme. The magazine wants an influx of cash, so they put on the contest.

They get all the same people subbing, now they're paying for the privilege. Plus, they slightly increase the sub rate of their magazine by holding a contest... "Hey everyone X is holding a contest, let's sub there," which also just happens to increase their cash flow.

But is the magazine any bigger when the contest submissions are published, no. They're going to publish the same size magazine, with the same number of stories with or without the contest, all they're doing is increasing their sub rate and charging a fee, i.e. quick cash to reject a hundred more subs that fail to meet the basic formatting guidelines.

Re. Glimmer Train, I believe they justify the contest fee because it goes into the prize that the winnner(s) will receive.

Still don't like it. Still won't submit to a magazine or publisher that does this.

jaksen said:

Re. Glimmer Train, I believe they justify the contest fee because it goes into the prize that the winnner(s) will receive.

Still don't like it. Still won't submit to a magazine or publisher that does this.

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I read somewhere they get 2000 stories a month @ $20 per story. The prizes are $1000, right? The fees don't just "go into" the prizes. By the way at least one of the two women that runs GT reads/posts here.

Rufus Leeking said:

I read somewhere they get 2000 stories a month @ $20 per story. The prizes are $1000, right? The fees don't just "go into" the prizes. By the way at least one of the two women that runs GT reads/posts here.

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One would hope that they're going into paying the contest judges, because without pay, that's quite often one of the most painful jobs a person can take in the writing business...

I'd still never enter a contest with a fee, nor would I pay reading fees to a magazine to check out my work...for all the reasons previously mentioned.

I think it should be strongly discouraged. But making money off hopeful writers seems to be a growing trend. Publishers and agents are all looking to turn their slush piles into an income stream.

Rufus Leeking said:

I read somewhere they get 2000 stories a month @ $20 per story. The prizes are $1000, right? The fees don't just "go into" the prizes. By the way at least one of the two women that runs GT reads/posts here.

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Yeah, so there's a lot left over hanging around.

Still won't do it and anyone can read these threads.

astonwest said:

One would hope that they're going into paying the contest judges, because without pay, that's quite often one of the most painful jobs a person can take in the writing business...

I'd still never enter a contest with a fee, nor would I pay reading fees to a magazine to check out my work...for all the reasons previously mentioned.

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Judges get paid? Wish I'd known that after I spent a whole year reading every freakin' mystery short story published that year.

Actually, I rather enjoyed it. I used 'I have to read now!' as an excuse to get out of anything I didn't want to do.

jaksen said:

Judges get paid?

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I never did when I judged (still bleaching my eyeballs)...but I imagine that pay is usually restricted to "celebrity" judges.

I've been wondering about this myself. I think I'll follow the sentiment that Sai presented.

Part of running a publishing company or magazine is reading the submissions. Writers shouldn't be charged just to have someone read it.

Sleepyhead said:

Full disclosure: I'm planning on launching a journal that requires the fees for electronic subs, but I'm also making sure that all the things that make me uncomfortable in other zines are not part of my business model. And I'll pay the authors at semi-pro rates to start. (More if it ends up doing well enough to make it feasible. But if the project crashes and burns, well, I'll close up shop.) Anyway, that's still an uncertain number of months away.

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I hope you do a bit more research into what you're actually doing before you start. From your post, it sounds like you need to do a lot more in any case.

I've edited for several publications and am now in the process of getting my own off the ground. Despite connections to my previous vocations, I'm still pretty much alone--but at least I know what goes into it. My literary magazine had been in the planning phase for 18 months prior to launch in January. By planning, I mean networking, having contracts drawn up and approved, applying for not-for-profit status and making an application for arts foundation/council funding as well as finding potential sponsors and a press; applying for an ISSN, purchasing a .com (or other domain) and developing a transparent and clear submissions/acceptance process.

So let's talk reading fees. Are reading fees in the first instance intended to cover costs? No. You are supplying a product, your revenue is generated from sales/circulation/readership <-- that covers your cost! When accepting reading fees, you are in essence receiving payment for a service; generating income before any sales are made. A start-up that does this can no longer apply for not-for-profit status (because your revenue is coming from other sources than actually intended). No such status = no arts foundation or similar interest funding (money intended to help you get yourself launched); it also means that an entire network of parties of interest and support immediately fall away (and several of those are of GREAT interest to a new outlet, PredEd, Duotrope, for example), including sponsors.

You may ask, how am I supposed to pay my contributors? Like I said, funding from those that are intended for it; your own pocket; or offer complimentary copies--how do I create complimentary copies without money? You either do, or you don't. Webzine and blogroll e-zines are perfectly viable outlets in today's shark infested publishing waters. But what costs other than the web provider does such an outlet need to cover? Any unimaginable costs can be recovered from ebook sales at a push, no?

In my experience, the big boys are starting to request reading fees because they have a large enough circulation or have been around long enough to not need to worry about any support network to help them get a foot in the world... others do it to dissuade the nutters (have you ever seen a fee free submissions pool?), especially as every man and his dog has internet access nowadays.

Young outlets do it because they want to make money first before any actual commitment to contributors, do not understand how it works, or are misguided enough to believe that doing so will actually help cover costs... but look at it this way: you charge a $5 reading fee, but pay successful contributors $20, that means you HAVE to reject 4 submission in practice for every acceptance! You are forced to reject a percentage of submissions regardless of literary quality or value. If you have no personal cash flowing into it, that is; how many subs do you think a start-up actually gets in its first year? Worse still, are you still giving away a contributor copy? Or do your contributors have to pay to see their work in print too? How much does a copy cost? Say your journal costs $6, your contributor has a personal profit of $9 out of the whole process. Doesn't that feel somewhat circular to you? If you are giving a copy away, then you're just about breaking even... The beauty of a contributor copy before payment is that it is a product representative of what you are about. You may make a loss on your first issue, but a contributor showing off their copy to friends, family and writing circles, having a chat about its quality on forums etc, is good marketing in prep for your next. The best way to cover costs is to have a reserve ready for your first few years, especially as being noted as a fee free submission market will encourage submissions when paired with semi-pro payment.

Expect to make losses, make sure you can cover it when you do. Have the right attitude and knowledge to negotiate and build your support network.

Think good and hard about your commitment to your project, more so, your commitment to contributors. It's no easy thing to do for either party where a young outlet is concerned. This:

Sleepyhead said:

if it ends up doing well enough to make it feasible. But if the project crashes and burns, well, I'll close up shop.

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Does not bode well. It's totally the wrong attitude.

kborsden said:

I hope you do a bit more research into what you're actually doing before you start. From your post, it sounds like you need to do a lot more in any case. . . .

This:

[Sorry; I screwed up the internal quote. It was my "if the project crashes and burns, well, I'll close up shop" comment.]

Does not bode well. It's totally the wrong attitude.

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Kie, I have done a great deal of research, but this thread was not about my research or my plans for a journal. I was simply answering the question at hand with the caveat that my view could be seen as self interested.

Granted, my comment about "crashing and burning" was flippant. However, my attitude toward this project is anything but casual. I am wholeheartedly committed to my vision, and I am investing a great deal of money into this project. The simple truth, however, is that investment involves risk despite all one does to minimize that risk. Optimism is a wonderful thing, as long as it is not the same as naivete. My flippant comment was simply a breezy acknowledgement of this hard fact, and I'm sorry that it offended your sensibilities.