S/O A little confused: How to write about an esoteric magic system...

Dreity · Feb 8, 2012

...without it turning into a lazy deus ex machina?

Arcane magic in the world of my WIP is a very academic thing. There are rules, formulas, consistencies...essentially, it's like any other science that is difficult to learn and even more difficult to master.

My two MCs use divine magic. Since I don't think it makes sense for powers that come from a god to work the same way as powers that come from something as natural as grass, there are only about three people with this sort of talent that have any clue what they're doing.

The MCs happen to be related to one of the few people who actually understands divine magic, but they don't interact with this person at all until the second book. So until then, my poor MCs are wandering haphazardly through the dark risking everything from headaches to power hunger to execution.

As I type this out, I think I've already answered my own questions, but I'm very interested to see how others have handled a similar problem. This is written in third-person limited, so when it comes to magic the reader will only know as much as the characters do. That said, I don't want to give readers the impression that because the characters have no idea how this works, neither must the author, turning divine magic into a convenient tool to get the author out of corners into which she has written herself.

Hesitantly submitting new thread...

RichardGarfinkle · Feb 8, 2012

Divine Magic presumably has a divine source. In that sense it's less magic than it is serving as a conduit for some other beings abilities and attitudes.

To avoid Deus Ex Machina in this situation it's necessary for there to be some sense of limitation. It might be nothing more than a feeling that a particular desired magical act is distant from or anathema to the divine source. It might be as sophisticated as proper acts of purification followed by rituals. Such acts might be necessary for the divine power or so that the mortal casters can survive the divine presence.

Without a better idea of your world, it's hard to give more definite suggestions.

Buffysquirrel · Feb 8, 2012

Lol, my poor characters are wandering around without a clue how their magic works, either. I wouldn't worry about it. If you write confidently enough, you take the reader with you. (not saying I do this....)

Dreity · Feb 8, 2012

RichardGarfinkle said:
Divine Magic presumably has a divine source. In that sense it's less magic than it is serving as a conduit for some other beings abilities and attitudes.

To avoid Deus Ex Machina in this situation it's necessary for there to be some sense of limitation. It might be nothing more than a feeling that a particular desired magical act is distant from or anathema to the divine source. It might be as sophisticated as proper acts of purification followed by rituals. Such acts might be necessary for the divine power or so that the mortal casters can survive the divine presence.

Without a better idea of your world, it's hard to give more definite suggestions.

Hehe, sorry for the vagueness.

You have the right idea about the nature of divine magic, and your suggestions will absolutely be kept in mind. It's tricky because the two MCs follow different gods, so I want their abilities to be distinct from one another and match their respective theology, but one of the climactic events of the book involves the two of them sort of merging their power to do something awesome. (Not in a hokey way like the Wonder Twins.) A god of war and a god of healing have very different perspectives on the surface, but when they actually agree on something the results are quite...theatrical.

The MCs are basically functioning on nothing but the "feelings" that you mentioned right now -- for the second draft I intend to clarify those feelings -- but I intend for them to mature into more intentional, ritual-based sort of techniques later.

I know the issue of limits are going to come up because it occurs to the MCs as well, particularly the FMC, who wonders in so many words, "If I can heal one person, why can't I bring back another from the dead? Just how much of a conduit am I, exactly?"

RichardFlea · Feb 8, 2012

I think you need to define your characters relationships to their Gods more clearly for us to give a better answer. For instance;

1) Your characters have no relationship with their deities; They may not know that their magical power actually comes from their deity and may think that they are just not doing it right or that they are cursed to seemingly random happening magical events.
2) Your characters do something to gain favor from their deity; Maybe they sacrifice something to enable magic to occur or purify themselves or offer food, but something they do enables them to perform magic as a reward.
3) Your characters converse with their deities and the deities respond (albeit seemingly randomly); Your character asks their deity for assistance and if it matches the deity's inclinations the deity grants the magic request.
4) Your characters are manipulated by their deities; all things happen for an ultimate purpose or what some people call fate. This may include being possessed, being emotionally or physically manipulated or being manipulated by circumstance.
5) Your characters converse openly with their deity (ie: the deity talks back either through prophecy, magical writing or a physically heard voice); In this instance, the character knows why the magic failed cause the deity tells them (ie: 'You must reach the tree of spirits before I will grant your request', said with a Charlton Heston voice).
6) Many, many more...

So how does your character believe and respond to their deity and most importantly why do they believe and why did they chose that deity? Most likely that will be tied in with your magic system.

Does this make sense? (Probably not...

Dreity · Feb 8, 2012

A fair question, Richard. I'll try to explain without writing an essay.

FMC is actually an agnostic of sorts when the story starts. She has the equivalent of the modern view that Jesus was a cool dude, but just a dude. She "follows" the goddess of healing because that goddess made medical advances that are still being used today by elven physicians. FMC is an elf and wants to be a physician, so it just made sense to go to that temple. When a guy pulls a sword on FMC's brother, her goddess audibly speaks to her and says in so many words, "Stop gawking and do something." FMC's first assumption is that she has gone crazy, but in the end she throws a rock faster than a pro-baseball player can pitch and kills the guy. Plot ensues. The first major internal conflict revolves around her reconciling her agnosticism with her supernatural experience.

MMC is FMC's older brother. He's kind of a spitfire (he picked a fight with the guy that almost killed him), and the discipline demanded of someone who follows the god of war helps him keep that part of himself in check. He wholeheartedly embraces his faith, but feels that his god likely spends most of the time annoyed with him because of his tendency to attack first and rationalize later.

I can't reveal too much more of the character progression, but they've at least figured out that things tend to go better if they have a specific outcome in mind rather than just thinking "zomg halp!" The plan is to evolve it from there once their Deconstructed Eccentric Mentor comes in to help them.

Ian Isaro · Feb 8, 2012

This is one of Brandon Sanderson's big issues, and I think he has a valid point. Basically, he says that your ability to solve problems via magic is directly related to the degree your readers understand that magic.

If you know magic can do several specific things, you accept those as abilities of the character and they can use them whenever. But if magic is vaguely defined and you don't know the rules, it risks creating cheap resolutions to conflict. If magic isn't explained at all, having it solve problems becomes deus ex machina.

Your ability to have vaugeries or changing rules is earned, in my opinion. If a writer clearly has control of the plot and is going somewhere, I can buy that this is being done for a reason. In a haphazardly-written story (or at the beginning of a book) I'm more inclined to assume the writer is using magic as a crutch.

Dreity · Feb 9, 2012

Ian Isaro said:
This is one of Brandon Sanderson's big issues, and I think he has a valid point. Basically, he says that your ability to solve problems via magic is directly related to the degree your readers understand that magic.

If you know magic can do several specific things, you accept those as abilities of the character and they can use them whenever. But if magic is vaguely defined and you don't know the rules, it risks creating cheap resolutions to conflict. If magic isn't explained at all, having it solve problems becomes deus ex machina.

Your ability to have vaugeries or changing rules is earned, in my opinion. If a writer clearly has control of the plot and is going somewhere, I can buy that this is being done for a reason. In a haphazardly-written story (or at the beginning of a book) I'm more inclined to assume the writer is using magic as a crutch.

Exactly. I have several complaints about Sanderson's writing, but his magic is definitely not one of them. He really does a great job making a unique magic system that's both logical and isn't terribly overpowered.

It will be a challenge to convey the sort of wild card nature of a newbie divine spellcaster and not make it look like magic is a crutch, to be sure.

Writing is hard. >.<

Buffysquirrel · Feb 9, 2012

My characters can appear to change the rules because often they've simply got the rules wrong. They're told the wrong thing or they learn something wrong the first time around. Their recorded history has been lost or deliberately destroyed or corrupted for plot reasons or simply the passage of time. As they learn more about what they can do and pick up plot coupons, er, I mean other characters with complementary abilities, they start being able to do things that were impossible to start with.

Whether it works is for the readers to say.

areteus · Feb 10, 2012

I always consider that gods are characters, they have whims and their own agendas. Therefore any power derived from them is also subject to these whims and agendas... what if, for example, the character the MCs are trying to kill is also a pawn in the game they are pawns in? When they call on the power of the gods to kill them, they refuse because they know that person will be important later...

Lhipenwhe · Feb 10, 2012

What are the gods powers and abilities? Are their capabilities reachable by normal men? Or does their divine nature preclude non-gods from their might? And what do the gods get out of worshipers? I'm presuming they like the attention and like the help mortals may give to them, but is there anything else?

Dreity · Feb 10, 2012

areteus said:
I always consider that gods are characters, they have whims and their own agendas. Therefore any power derived from them is also subject to these whims and agendas... what if, for example, the character the MCs are trying to kill is also a pawn in the game they are pawns in? When they call on the power of the gods to kill them, they refuse because they know that person will be important later...

Thank you for the reply! I have considered this angle, and these gods would definitely be better described as characters rather than forces of nature. Fickle is a word that comes to mind, but it doesn't quite fit. These aren't the Greek and Roman gods who are constantly mucking around in the lives of mortals, but once upon a time they were fairly accessible as far as having a give and take relationship with their followers.

Lhipenwhe said:
What are the gods powers and abilities? Are their capabilities reachable by normal men? Or does their divine nature preclude non-gods from their might? And what do the gods get out of worshipers? I'm presuming they like the attention and like the help mortals may give to them, but is there anything else?

Hmm, well, as far as I know (I haven't decided if there are any exceptions) all gods were once mortals who ascended to godhood after achieving something along the lines of whatever it is they are venerated for now. Part of the reason why my FMC doesn't feel the need to be religious is because the line between a god and, say, a powerful sorcerer for example, are a bit fuzzy. So fuzzy that there is a common quote stating "There is a god for every man, and a man for every god". You can twist that to mean pretty much whatever you want.

As I answer the rest of the questions to myself, it is becoming increasingly more apparent that -- for the first book at least -- the gods should probably only intervene when there is a damn good reason to do so, or in the extremely rare chance that the MCs happen to stumble across the right method to get what they want out of the gods. In the meantime, because of each of the MCs respective talents and ingenuity, it really should be within their own power to get themselves out of the many holes in which they are digging themselves.

Dreity · Feb 10, 2012

Passing some rep points around, you guys are awesome!

Kazel · Feb 12, 2012

Re: what Ian_Isaro was saying, your ability to fix things with magic is earned by the reader knowing the rules, but I would add that you have much more freedom for magic screwing things up.
If you magic makes as much (or more) trouble for your characters than it fixes, then your readers will follow along.
Since you mentioned that your characters had to figure out that having an outcome in mind was better than a vague "please help" it sounds like you already have magic causing problems.

S/O A little confused: How to write about an esoteric magic system...

Dreity

RichardGarfinkle

Second Edition and Second Laughter

Buffysquirrel

Dreity

RichardFlea

Foo!

Dreity

Ian Isaro

New Member

Dreity

Buffysquirrel

areteus

Lhipenwhe

Moving with my soul, step by step

Dreity

Dreity

Kazel