A little confused...

Status
Not open for further replies.

Escape Artist

Plotting her escape...
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 13, 2010
Messages
541
Reaction score
53
Location
Walking the fine line between cute and creepy...
I've read in various posts what seems to be contradictory advice. On the one hand, you'll hear some people say that anything goes in fantasy as opposed to science fiction where readers will expect at least some level of plausibility. But on the other hand, I've read that you really only get a couple of "gimmes" in fantasy and that the rest must be pretty strictly possible. So which is it?

I'll admit that I'm a gullible person and as long as someone sounds like they know what they're talking about (if they are a master in the art of bullshit ;)) and I don't know any different, I'll believe them. But maybe other readers are more picky than me???

As always, thanks guys...
 

RichardGarfinkle

Second Edition and Second Laughter
Super Moderator
Moderator
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 2, 2012
Messages
12,587
Reaction score
7,067
Location
Swimming in the Shallows
Website
www.richardgarfinkle.com
Generally, what works in both F and SF is internal consistency and a way for the reader to get a sense of how things are supposed to work. The latter usually requires characters they at least want to follow or can get into the heads of.

This produces the paradox that it often doesn't matter how weird your world is, as long as the characters seem normal, even if it would make more sense for the characters to be as weird as the world.
 

Hallen

Mostly annoying
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 28, 2010
Messages
971
Reaction score
111
Location
Albany, Oregon, USA
There are all different grades of SF from hard with no "magical elements" to space opera with things like the Force and warp drives. The same holds true for fantasy. Yeah, it's magic, but in some cases, the magic is extremely limited and in other cases it's overt and all over the place. Same holds for strange and exotic creatures in the stories. There are no rules here.

But, like Richard said above, consistency is what is important -- don't break your own rules and don't make things up just to solve a problem. Don't use magic or some other previously unused thingy to get your character out of a mess. If the magic is going to save them, set it up first. Don't cheat your readers. Be consistent in how you apply the fantastical elements in your stories.
 

Kricket

Chirp! Chirp!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 30, 2010
Messages
4,409
Reaction score
733
Location
Colorado
I agree with Richard about consistency.

In my mind, you do need to be more factual with SF, generally. But with F you need to be consistent within the story's rules. I'm more of a F fan than SF, so here's my take. With Fantasy you have to be careful to set up the rules of magic (or whatever fantastic thing you're using) and stick to those rules. If you break your own rules then you lose and even anger your reader.

It's all about making the story, world, and characters believable and relate-able to your readers. So as long as you clearly define the rules/boundaries and stay within them, you can take your readers anywhere.

Hope that helps. :)
 

Buffysquirrel

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 12, 2008
Messages
6,137
Reaction score
694
The whole consistency thing is killing me in my novel, where I have a magical arms race going on. But yeah. Internal consistency is key.
 

Polenth

Mushroom
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 27, 2007
Messages
5,018
Reaction score
736
Location
England
Website
www.polenthblake.com
If you're writing absurdism, it won't matter that fish made of chocolate are flying through a sky filled with candy floss clouds. But if you're writing a fantasy where it's mostly real world, it's going to look odd if DNA is replaced with popcorn as a means of inheritance. If you want me to believe people can shoot fireballs from their hands, you're better off sticking with DNA.

Often what we get here is people introducing popcorn DNA into their grimdark realistic fantasy. Not people writing about absurd chocolate fish worlds, where I'd be fine eating accepting the fish.
 

Escape Artist

Plotting her escape...
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 13, 2010
Messages
541
Reaction score
53
Location
Walking the fine line between cute and creepy...
If you're writing absurdism, it won't matter that fish made of chocolate are flying through a sky filled with candy floss clouds. But if you're writing a fantasy where it's mostly real world, it's going to look odd if DNA is replaced with popcorn as a means of inheritance. If you want me to believe people can shoot fireballs from their hands, you're better off sticking with DNA.

Often what we get here is people introducing popcorn DNA into their grimdark realistic fantasy. Not people writing about absurd chocolate fish worlds, where I'd be fine eating accepting the fish.

Well, I don't think there'll be any introducing of popcorn DNA into my WIP, but of course, I'm only 11K in so far...

Anyway, there are a few things that will have to be "swallowed" in order to enjoy the story and which will probably put the story more firmly in fantasy than in sci-fi, though I'm kind of thinking it's soft sci-fi, at least for now. Death (as in the personification of Death) exists in the book and his origin story is a bit unbelievable. He claims to have been "birthed" by a black hole. I guess you could say he became self-aware while inside it and then was drawn to life (drawn to destroy it, that is) on distant planets. And, though it is not expressly discussed, he more or less arose out of need alone. Life needs Death and vice versa.

Those distant planets (of which there are four, including Earth) were created by an intelligent (although imperfect) deity who is known by many names - Nature, Life, Kara, etc. - so there's that to be swallowed as well, unless you're like me and believe in intelligent design anyway.

The other big thing to come to terms with are the Corridors (sort of like wormholes, I guess) that provide instantaneous travel from Earth to the other planets. Kara created these by accident, out of anger, actually, but no one really understands how they work, only that they're there and that they're stable and reliable, etc.

The other stuff isn't so hard to digest, I don't think. There's a planet inhabited by socially polygynous bat-like humanoids who don't fly but have wings nonetheless. There's a planet inhabited by a race/species (not sure which is the correct term) of humanoids with psychic powers whose origin stems from an act of suicide. And then there's an ocean planet with merpeople.

Damn. Now that I write it all out, it sounds like a lot to swallow, but I'm hoping that consistency within the world is the key and that as long as I don't violate my own rules, then I'll be good.
 

theelfchild

Thinking up something clever
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
Messages
331
Reaction score
42
Location
Wonderland
For a fantasy, all the elements you listed are perfectly acceptable, imo. I've seen all the big elements you listed used before in stories. The deity and the corridors are *really* common, in my experience.

And yes, I definitely think consistency is key.
 

RichardGarfinkle

Second Edition and Second Laughter
Super Moderator
Moderator
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 2, 2012
Messages
12,587
Reaction score
7,067
Location
Swimming in the Shallows
Website
www.richardgarfinkle.com
Well, I don't think there'll be any introducing of popcorn DNA into my WIP, but of course, I'm only 11K in so far...

Anyway, there are a few things that will have to be "swallowed" in order to enjoy the story and which will probably put the story more firmly in fantasy than in sci-fi, though I'm kind of thinking it's soft sci-fi, at least for now. Death (as in the personification of Death) exists in the book and his origin story is a bit unbelievable. He claims to have been "birthed" by a black hole. I guess you could say he became self-aware while inside it and then was drawn to life (drawn to destroy it, that is) on distant planets. And, though it is not expressly discussed, he more or less arose out of need alone. Life needs Death and vice versa.

Those distant planets (of which there are four, including Earth) were created by an intelligent (although imperfect) deity who is known by many names - Nature, Life, Kara, etc. - so there's that to be swallowed as well, unless you're like me and believe in intelligent design anyway.

The other big thing to come to terms with are the Corridors (sort of like wormholes, I guess) that provide instantaneous travel from Earth to the other planets. Kara created these by accident, out of anger, actually, but no one really understands how they work, only that they're there and that they're stable and reliable, etc.

The other stuff isn't so hard to digest, I don't think. There's a planet inhabited by socially polygynous bat-like humanoids who don't fly but have wings nonetheless. There's a planet inhabited by a race/species (not sure which is the correct term) of humanoids with psychic powers whose origin stems from an act of suicide. And then there's an ocean planet with merpeople.

Damn. Now that I write it all out, it sounds like a lot to swallow, but I'm hoping that consistency within the world is the key and that as long as I don't violate my own rules, then I'll be good.

That's not that hard to swallow. People have been writing stuff that weird as Science Fantasy for a long time. Jack L. Chalker and Michael Moorcock have done as weird (me too, but they're better at it). Make your world hold together, don't fuss too much with actual science (since you're not using it), but make your characters (especially Death) and your world internally hold together, and make your story interesting and your readers won't complain.

There's a segment of readership that reads only bleeding edge hard SF, but there's a different segment that reads evocative science fantasy. Write for the second audience not the first, because that's who will be interested in your story.
 

Torgo

Formerly Phantom of Krankor.
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 7, 2005
Messages
7,632
Reaction score
1,204
Location
London, UK
Website
torgoblog.blogspot.com
I think SF is inherently naturalistic. Arthur C Clarke said 'any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic', but SF still believes there's a distinction. The more you rationalise magic, the more SF-like your story becomes, I think.

LOTR doesn't rationalise magic in the slightest. We don't really know what magic is capable of in Middle-Earth; we have only a very sketchy idea of what Gandalf can do. It's a surprise when he comes back from the dead, but there's also a sense of wonder about it. Merlin, similarly: we don't know what he can do, what the limits of his magic are, and it's used sparingly.

If you rationalise a bit more, you can come up with something like Ursula LeGuin's Earthsea, or Patrick Rothfuss's books, or Harry Potter, even. Magic in these books has rules, and formulas, and is studied like a science. It seems the more you use magic in a fantasy novel, the more it has to be explained and codified - you have to start accounting for the fact that a wizard is imperilled, or can't escape from a prison by walking through walls.

I'd also mention Randall Garrett's Lord Darcy stories, or Jim Butcher's Harry Dresden series - essentially mysteries, but incorporating a lot of carefully-explained magical lore. The rules are made very clear, so that Garrett's wizardly forensic scientist can use voodoo to match a bullet to a gun without offending the sensibilities of detective fiction, for instance. Dresden, likewise, is basically a fantasy Spenser, PI.

I think they fail to shade into SF because however rule-based and heavily-explained their systems of magic, they don't try to explain magic in naturalistic terms. We don't get a situation where Harry Dresden throwing a fireball is explained as a mutant organ that allows him to tap into zero-point energy and send a negative charge through his flux capacitor. The characters, and the narrator, are content to explain magic in metaphysical terms - force of will, that sort of thing - and not look into it with a microscope.

Obi-Wan Kenobi talking about the Force in Star Wars is just about on the border, which was one of the things that made the first three films interesting - the mix of Han Solo's gritty materialism, hydrospanners and all, and mystical, elusive magic practised by warrior priests. Then of course Lucas rampaged wantonly over that border in the sequels with all that Midichlorian bullshit, took a wrong turn, and ended up in the barren wastes of Crap SF. The first trilogy had archetypes as characters; the second had clichés.

Anyway. Your story needs internal consistency. In a highly rationalised fantasy, or a piece of SF, you will have many rules about how magic or technology works. You can only cast three spells per day; the Enterprise cannot exceed Warp 10. But in a lightly-rationalised fantasy, magic is something whose use just has to be consistent with effective storytelling. We don't really need to know precisely how the One Ring works, in physical terms, or how Galadriel does her thing. Moments of magical intervention in a Tolkien story are almost religious in nature; miracles, in fact. As miracles, they're justified in a story by the story's shape, by some sense of justice or catharsis.

And of course that applies to the other end of the scale, too - if it's dramatically necessary, and exciting, and thrilling for the Enterprise to reach Warp 11, well, that's what we're going to do. Later someone will write a bit about how they reversed the phaser bank buffer through the warp coils. (It doesn't really matter; Star Trek's audience will forgive a certain amount of hand-waving, and like most fandoms rather relish figuring out ingenious solutions to rationalise it.)

Where you're not going to get away with any polarity-reversing is in hard SF, or god help us Mundane SF. Right. I've gone on long enough. Off for some dinner.
 

veinglory

volitare nequeo
Self-Ban
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
28,750
Reaction score
2,937
Location
right here
Website
www.veinglory.com
Fantasy has to be plausible to in that the fantasy world should have laws for all the phenomena that occur within it that should not arbitrarily change.
 

Kricket

Chirp! Chirp!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 30, 2010
Messages
4,409
Reaction score
733
Location
Colorado
Well, I don't think there'll be any introducing of popcorn DNA into my WIP, but of course, I'm only 11K in so far...

Anyway, there are a few things that will have to be "swallowed" in order to enjoy the story and which will probably put the story more firmly in fantasy than in sci-fi, though I'm kind of thinking it's soft sci-fi, at least for now. Death (as in the personification of Death) exists in the book and his origin story is a bit unbelievable. He claims to have been "birthed" by a black hole. I guess you could say he became self-aware while inside it and then was drawn to life (drawn to destroy it, that is) on distant planets. And, though it is not expressly discussed, he more or less arose out of need alone. Life needs Death and vice versa.

Those distant planets (of which there are four, including Earth) were created by an intelligent (although imperfect) deity who is known by many names - Nature, Life, Kara, etc. - so there's that to be swallowed as well, unless you're like me and believe in intelligent design anyway.

The other big thing to come to terms with are the Corridors (sort of like wormholes, I guess) that provide instantaneous travel from Earth to the other planets. Kara created these by accident, out of anger, actually, but no one really understands how they work, only that they're there and that they're stable and reliable, etc.

The other stuff isn't so hard to digest, I don't think. There's a planet inhabited by socially polygynous bat-like humanoids who don't fly but have wings nonetheless. There's a planet inhabited by a race/species (not sure which is the correct term) of humanoids with psychic powers whose origin stems from an act of suicide. And then there's an ocean planet with merpeople.

Damn. Now that I write it all out, it sounds like a lot to swallow, but I'm hoping that consistency within the world is the key and that as long as I don't violate my own rules, then I'll be good.

Can I just say that your story idea sounds very awesome? :)
 

Dreity

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 9, 2011
Messages
1,031
Reaction score
180
Location
Upstate NY
This has been an interesting and valuable thread, but it also leads me to a few more questions that could run the risk of derailment. Off to start a s/o!
 

Buffysquirrel

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 12, 2008
Messages
6,137
Reaction score
694
Heh, I'd find most of that a lot easier to swallow than intelligent design.
 

areteus

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 4, 2011
Messages
2,636
Reaction score
183
Location
Manchester UK
The reason for there being rules and restrictions on magic in fantasy is to prevent the 'deus ex machinae' problem. if a character can just wave their hands and everything is sorted then there is no plot. 'Oh, we need to get the ring to Mordor? No problem, Frodo, hop on my back and I'll teleport there and you can drop it in and we'll all go home for tea'. That would be the most boring novel in the history of SFF (and there are some contenders for that title...) because there is no pressure or tension or conflict. The heart of LOTR is Frodo's internal struggle with the evil in the ring and that requires time to develop....

So, all magical systems need to have internally consistant rules to highlight what they can and cannot do. These rules do not need to be explicit (we don't know what Gandalf is capable of, no one says 'Wait, Gandalf, can't you just teleport Frodo to Mordor?' we find out from what he does, though there is the added restriction that he is keeping a low profile to avoid being targetted by Sauron as a major threat) nor do they need to be the same as every other magical system out there (and there is a lot of variation if you read around). They just need to be known to the author and consistant so that when the author puts their characters in a situation they can say 'Ok, what can magic do in this situation? Can my system of magic eliminate the threat completely? Is there a way I can make it more difficult for the magician to solve the plot? Is there a way to use magic to make the plot more tense or interesting?

Therefore you can have a situation where the characters need to kill a demon... if magic were unlimited then the magician could click their fingers and the demon be gone. However, with a set of rules in place, it could be that the magician needs to discover the demon's name to be able to banish them and/or set up a particular ritual (which takes time, time during which their friends are trying to battle the demon and getting thier arses kicked) or are only able to do a certain number of exorcisms a day (and they already blasted a demon after breakfast that morning so no more spells until breakfast tomorrow) or have to get a hold of the amulet that the demon wears around their neck (or the demon's horn or a scale or some blood) to create a sympathetic connection... all of these options make the apparently simple act (banishing the demon) more difficult and create tension, plot and entertainment while they are being carried out.

This is why you need internal consistancy and metaphysical rules...
 

Scott Seldon

Do you hear the people sing?
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 3, 2012
Messages
91
Reaction score
6
Location
Colorado
Website
sites.google.com
Part of what we are talking about here is just good rules for writing a serious story. In order to create a sense of realism, be it mainstream fiction, an ultra high-tech future SF story, or a magic filled fantasy, you have to follow the rules. In SF, science is the guiding principle behind the rules. Science is codified and researchable, but there are also lots of holes and lots of room for making things up. Modern scientists have found plausible ways to explain many of the FTL options SF writers use, but they caution about the huge power they would take. So even though warp drive and hyperspace are theoretical ways to travel faster than light, for us SF writers to write about it we have to fudge on the power side.

I think fantasy is much the same, but the rules of magic are not pre-ordained, a fantasy author is free to make it all up. But it still does have to make sense and be consistent internally. Plausibility in fantasy depends on your setting. If you are writing urban fantasy, set in the modern world, you have some constraints as to what you can do. If you have a setting like Middle Earth, you are free to give it any level of magic you want. Even competing forms of magic. Anything goes as long as you can make the reader believe it. The extent you can go entirely depends on you as the writer. You could set your story in a world peopled by gods, along the lines of Greek or Egyptian mythology, and as long as you are consistent, your characters can be using magic almost every second.

The thing you want to be careful of is something I think of as the K-9 effect. In Dr. Who, in the late 70's, they had a robot dog called K-9. He had a laser, sensors, and could hack into computers, open doors, warn of danger approaching, and a whole host of things. It was a great and fun character, but it took away from the sense of danger. It started to feel like K-9 could not be defeated. A glitch in your magic world and you have created the same effect. You might end up with a character who is impossible to defeat and the moment the audience realizes that, you have lost them. Dr. Who eliminated K-9 for that very reason. He has come back from time to time, but he has never again been the super robot dog he was when he was introduced.

In Lord of the Rings, magic seems pretty rare, very old. In Piers Anthony's Xanth (and yes, I know that is more humorous, but back when I read it, when there were only like 10 books, it had the internal consistency we are talking about), everyone has magic. Everything is magic. Magic is everywhere and it works.

Science fiction has often bent the rules and skirted magic. The Force in Star Wars is one example. R. Daneel Olivaw and the Mule are others. I've been reading C. L. Moore's Northwest Smith stories and they are quite outlandish. It makes some of the odd things I found with Star Trek seem down right normal. ESP, ancient evil beings, mind reading robots, telekinesis, teleportation, all the things main stream science tends to shun, have been staples of SF for the last century. And we buy it even though nothing of the sort has been proven to exist. Still, otherwise serious SF authors, firmly grounded in science such as Isaac Asimov, have written them into stories and the stories are taken seriously. So if you can write it like such things as magic and ESP are real and part of the world of your story, then the reader will accept it.
 

readlorey

There may be bloodshed...just sayin
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 27, 2006
Messages
87
Reaction score
8
Location
at my house
Yeah, what they said.

*thinks she's been away far too long*
 
Status
Not open for further replies.