Typical YA plot

Tromboli · Feb 4, 2012

So I've been having troubles with how to start my novel. I've tried a ton of things. Now something I am playing with is bringing in the main male character early.

Both characters are supernatural but he knows it and she doesn't, yet.

But I can't help thinking about how stereotypical the whole "hot dark stranger at school" thing is in YA these days. I think it will work well for my novel and help get the plot rolling into the supernatural elements (the two characters do end up together but that is not, at all, the main plot). But I don't know if I can feel comfortable with it knowing how typical it is.

Anyone else have issues with things like this? Do you ignore the cliches and do what you want, or completely avoid them, or change them in someway to make them less stereotypical?

Becca C. · Feb 4, 2012

I try to turn clichés around. Does he have to be dark and mysterious? What if he's goofy and endearingly awkward instead? That can be just as enigmatic and alluring as aloofness. What if, instead of acting cold and brooding towards the MC as per YA cliché, he's very playful and always telling jokes? That's the way to really entice someone you're interested in, IMO.

Jodie · Feb 4, 2012

I would concentrate on getting your first draft down and worry about the cliches in the second draft.

Tromboli · Feb 4, 2012

I'm on... well about my 8th draft. The beginning is the hardest part right now. I can't decide how best to start it.

And this male character is brooding, no changing that. He is very closed emotional and is only at her school to check up on her, not his idea. Only way to change it is if I make it a different character come to her school. My MFC is the more unconventional, she has a kind of bad girl image but more by rumors than actually who she is. Still she's got a bit of a hard edge and an attitude.

I might not use this idea at all, I'm just playing with it now to see how it works and just wondered what people thought about it.

Tromboli · Feb 4, 2012

P.s. just realized how I worded my post did make it seem like I was starting my novel. I mean I don't know how to begin the story, introducing the world, characters and story in an intriguing way. It seems to have a lot of important back story, I need to show her life before because the after is very important. Sorry to mislead you

missesdash · Feb 4, 2012

Tromboli said:
I'm on... well about my 8th draft. The beginning is the hardest part right now. I can't decide how best to start it.

And this male character is brooding, no changing that. He is very closed emotional and is only at her school to check up on her, not his idea. Only way to change it is if I make it a different character come to her school. My MFC is the more unconventional, she has a kind of bad girl image but more by rumors than actually who she is. Still she's got a bit of a hard edge and an attitude.

I might not use this idea at all, I'm just playing with it now to see how it works and just wondered what people thought about it.

I had this issue too. I also had the whole "first day of school" cliche for her actual LI.

I changed it so she meets the LI the day before school starts and doesn't know he's going to school. It's a small difference, but kept me from having to write the "met the most beautiful boy on the first day of school" scene and instead wrote a "holy crap, it's that kid" scene.

I think in these cases little differences help so you don't have to play out the scene the way it usually goes.

I also had a "mysterious dark character" but he isn't new. I made it so he's been going to the school or a while and they're vaguely familiar (thus not a stranger). That strips away the "mystery" because the other kids at school know plenty about him (even if it's not true for the most part). Anyway, just play around with it. Them meeting at school doesn't have to be the case, even if he does go there. And he doesn't have to be a complete enigma, he can have a "front" so to speak. There are a lot of ways to be a secretive supernatural.

folkchick · Feb 4, 2012

It's what you do with the tall, dark and handsome stranger that makes it interesting.

jmlee · Feb 4, 2012

I think if you're bringing enough new stuff to the table, in practice, the cliches sort of fade into the background. Tell a good story in an amazing way and no one will care. You might consider posting on SYW to get feedback from that perspective.

I think in a lot of cases, just gets complicated when you try to pitch it, because you have a limited way to express what's happening without someone reading it.

Zoombie · Feb 5, 2012

Just do what I did, if you really want to be original. Have the brooding sexy LI be ignored because he's brooding and the MC never actually goes after him, due to the fact she's too busy being attracted to the less sexy, but more outgoing and friendly guy at the party named Sean.

Then, after she and Sean have sex a few times and decide to just be friends (with benefits), she meets Adrian, and they end up being FwB too! Then she meets this cute girl named Natasha, and, well, they're bisexual.

Meanwhile, sexy brooding love interest falls in with the bad guys and ends up face down in a ditch with his throat slit.

Then the MC finds him while uncovering their evil soul stealing conspiracy.

...hey, you said original, not publishable!

But, for serious, it's what you DO with cliched concepts and ideas that make it new and interesting. As a completely arbitrary example, there's the video game Mass Effect. Mass Effect uses the most cliche elements of sci-fi, but injects so much astonishing detail and scientific accuracy that what is old feels new!

That's the real essence of storytelling: Making the old new, and the new feel old and familiar.

Lydia Sharp · Feb 5, 2012

Tromboli said:
Anyone else have issues with things like this? Do you ignore the cliches and do what you want, or completely avoid them, or change them in someway to make them less stereotypical?

If something is nagging me as "too cliche'", I will do what I can to change that. Looking at my own work as a reader, I have to be honest with myself: If I picked this up to read and it was written by someone else, how would I feel about it?

If I don't do that then I'm justifying the use of cliche' simply because I'm too attached to the story I've created and don't want to change it. Which is no good because Average Jane Reader isn't going to be so forgiving.

Of course, so many plots are considered cliche' now that it's nearly impossible to avoid them all. But if you, as the author, are already feeling that it might be viewed in a negative light because it seems too typical, then it's definitely worth looking into how to change that.

Windcutter · Feb 5, 2012

I have a strong impression that cliches are disliked mainly for two reasons:
1) makes the story too predictable
2) reader doesn't like this particular cliche so it's not a matter of "too typical" but "I wish it were something else entirely."

thebloodfiend · Feb 5, 2012

I'd turn the trope on it's head, especially since it's the most overused trope in YA PNR right now. Pretty much any YA PNR book has the brooding, mysterious asshole as the MC.

But, hey, some people enjoy that kind of thing. Twilight was pubbed around seven or six years ago and people are still trying to emulate it. Depends on who you're trying to cater to.

I prefer to subvert and avoid cliches because I don't like them. Some people do. They bore me because they make the novel predictable and unoriginal.

Just out of curiosity, if he has to be brooding, why does he need to be hot? Is that specifically relevant to the plot, or is it just wish fulfillment for the reader?

Only one of my male MC's is supposed to be hot, and he's hot in a very feminine way for a very specific reason -- not because I want the reader to picture falling in love with him, a la Edward/Bella style.

Jodie · Feb 5, 2012

Maybe you could give your MC an interesting or unusual hobby then he would have more depth than just being hot and mysterious.

Liosse de Velishaf · Feb 5, 2012

missesdash said:
I had this issue too. I also had the whole "first day of school" cliche for her actual LI.

I changed it so she meets the LI the day before school starts and doesn't know he's going to school. It's a small difference, but kept me from having to write the "met the most beautiful boy on the first day of school" scene and instead wrote a "holy crap, it's that kid" scene.

Haha, almost every anime romance ever. XD

thebloodfiend · Feb 5, 2012

Liosse de Velishaf said:
Haha, almost every anime romance ever. XD

Mars, Clannad, Whisper of the Heart, etc, etc... and that's just off the top of my head. When it's done well, you don't notice. But that's the thing with most cliches -- they're written so poorly, or so lazily, that they're eye-roll worthy and spotted immediately. When they're done well, you applaud the author for taking something old and turning it on it's head.

Like (500) Days of Summer. It has cliches and follows the standard romcom plot, but it took an old trope and played it on its head.

J.S.F. · Feb 6, 2012

Why does the MC (if it's a guy) have to be the "dark and brooding type" or the girl a smart, hip chick? (Geez, by using this terminology I must REALLY be dating myself!).

Look, if you want your characters to be "real" just think about what you were like in high school or if you are in high school, think of yourself now and the people around you and draw from that. My first two novels out in cyberland had MC's who were shy and uncertain at first, and then grew into themselves as they grew up.

The third novel (currently undergoing revision with my editor) has the MC as a bit of a smart-ass, and my fourth has the MC who was on top of his game until getting sick. It takes all kinds.

As for the plot, the old "fish out of water" has stood up well over the years. These days, there's not a whole lot new under the sun; it's what you do with the cliches that matters. W.K. Kinsella once wrote "What if" as his inspiration and that's a concept I've taken to heart. What if your MC does the unexpected? What if he decides he doesn't want the girl at the end, or the heroine decides she doesn't have to have a boyfriend who's all broody and dark and mysterious? What if she goes for the nerd/ That kind of thing. If you can "twist" things around and make the cliches as fresh as possible, then you'll get yourself readers.

Liosse de Velishaf · Feb 6, 2012

Awkward could work, too. I would love to see more awkward romance in YA, because honestly that's what I mostly see in real life.

Becca C. · Feb 6, 2012

Liosse de Velishaf said:
Awkward could work, too. I would love to see more awkward romance in YA, because honestly that's what I mostly see in real life.

QFT.

I write awkward romances. At least in the beginning stages. It feels artificial to me if everything is comfortable and perfect and beautiful right from the beginning.

Arclight · Feb 6, 2012

Cliches are not necessarily bad. Are your characters three-dimensional, and do they change and grow during the story? Do you ever turn cliches on their head or do things the reader wouldn't expect? If you can honestly answer yes to these questions, then I don't think it's such a bad thing to have a cliche setup.

maybegenius · Feb 6, 2012

You can always do a brainstorming session. Get away from the MS itself, use a completely fresh document or fresh notebook, and just throw out ideas and let your brain make connections. Take risks. Go for the weird. None of the ideas you put down have to go in the MS, so you can go completely nuts. You'll probably end up with a bunch of junk, but you may also end up with something you never even considered that you can work with.

One of my favorite bits of writing advice (I've forgotten where I originally heard it... Bruce Coville, maybe?) is the "20 ideas" theory. The concept is that your first few ideas are going to come from the well-worn pathways of your brain -- they're the obvious, easy, cliche ideas. If you push past those, you'll get into lesser-traveled territory. Push even more, and you'll get to something resembling originality. The advice says that it's not until you reach the sixteenth, eighteenth, or twentieth idea that you've reached the overgrown thicket of least-used ideas.

So, in a nutshell, as an exercise, always toss out the first 1-5 ideas you come up with. Stretch your brain toward the lesser-traveled pathways. You'll come up with something! We always do.

kuwisdelu · Feb 6, 2012

Zoombie said:
Meanwhile, sexy brooding love interest falls in with the bad guys and ends up face down in a ditch with his throat slit.

My sexy brooding self is now depressed.

J.S.F. said:
Look, if you want your characters to be "real" just think about what you were like in high school or if you are in high school, think of yourself now and the people around you and draw from that.

I brooded.

Hotly.

missesdash · Feb 6, 2012

Liosse de Velishaf said:
Haha, almost every anime romance ever. XD

More evidence that anime/manga is the reason French teenagers don't read YA. There's nothing in a YA book that they can't find in what they already read.

J.S.F. · Feb 6, 2012

kuwisdelu said:
My sexy brooding self is now depressed.

I brooded.

Hotly.

---

Still single, huh?

(I keed, I keed!).

kuwisdelu · Feb 6, 2012

J.S.F. said:
---

Still single, huh?

(I keed, I keed!).

Actually, I did much better in high school when I was dark and brooding.

Now that I'm happier, more emotionally stable, and somewhat outgoing, I seem to be hopelessly single.

Yeah. Sometimes the tropes exist for a reason.

Confidence is overrated.

University has been like a monastery compared to high school. Maybe I should go back to being dark and brooding.

Rhoda Nightingale · Feb 6, 2012

maybegenius said:
(…)
So, in a nutshell, as an exercise, always toss out the first 1-5 ideas you come up with. Stretch your brain toward the lesser-traveled pathways. You'll come up with something! We always do.

I love this advice. I haven't done a brainstorming session quite like that before, but it definitely makes sense. The farther you stretch your creative brain, the more original ideas you'll come up with.

As for my two cents, another thing you can try is take your character "out to lunch." This is an exercise I learned in a workshop years ago, and I've used it many times. Whenever you're stuck with a character, need to know more about his/her background or motivation, or just need to get to know them better, sit them down and interview them until you have the answers you need. Even if the situation in your MS is "typical" for paranormal YA, having a pair of well-rounded, fleshed-out characters at its center makes all the difference.

@kuwi: Just don't lose that jaunty hat.

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