Is there any point to a novelist getting their MFA/PHD?

DivaNicoletta said:

Has anyone found this to be helpful/useful, or in your opionion, is a waste of time and money? I am comtemplating whether going to law school, or getting my mfa in creative writing. I am 22 so I have plenty of time. Anyone have thoughts? TIA!

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An MFA is good to have if you plan on teaching creative writing, or would like to at some forseeable point in the future. I'm an MFA student myself, but only because I want the backup of being able to teach. Is it possible to get published and sell books without having an MFA? Absolutely; writers do it all the time. But being involved in a good MFA program can have the benefit of opening additional doors for you, as well as giving you the opportunity to hone your craft with professional mentors. A good program will also offer many opportunities to meet and network with established authors that you might otherwise not have.

One downside is that you'll have to spend so much time keeping up with your workload (which in most programs involves literature and theory classes as well as writing classes) that there may not be as much time for the actual writing as you would like. But I think this is offset by the wonderful learning opportunities that you will have and the chance to spend two years (or more, depending on the program) in the company of other writers who will become like your second family. It's a wonderful support system, and one that will be there for you the rest of your writing life.

I realize there's a certain "stigma" that can come with having an MFA; people automatically start thinking "cookie-cutter workshop pieces" and bland, Ivory Tower prose. But that's not really the case at all. The best programs actually encourage individuality and those things that make your writing unique. They aren't there to change or mold you, only to take the raw talent that you have and help you make the most of it. I can honestly say that I already knew how to write when I entered the program; they can't give you talent. But I do know that the experience has made me a much BETTER writer, and for that I'm thankful.

Law school worked for John Grisham.

OTOH, as Black bird said, an MFA is certainly optional. if Law school interests you, more power to you!


I, myself, am planning on attending law school. It will hopefully give me a means of employment until, god willing, i can write fulltime. I do find law interesting, and, like any life experience, it might give me somethign to write about!

MFA

An MFa is valuable in that the more you study writing, the better you should be at it. Doesn't work for everyone. . .you still have to have to talent and teh determination, but, yes, an MFA can be valuable.

And if there's anything this world doesn't need more of, it's lawyers. Better another unemployed writer than an employed lawyer.

Studying in areas other than writing can give you loads of experiences for your writing. Working in areas other than writing can also help gain experiences. I am planning on studying a career in merchadotechnics (lousy translation, sorry), but I'm thinking on a course on literature or journalism. My main choice for career, however, has nothing to do with my passion for writing. More experience for me

"Is there any point to a novelist . . . " ????

caw.

MFA is AOK

An MFA will probably give you a bit more street cred if you're writing literary novels; it's not as important, in my opinion, for genre writers. And, whether you're writing literary or not, make no mistake: two years of concentrated writing and instruction will dramatically hone your skills. Two years of life experience or law school, while valuable, won't develop your writing in the same way.

DamaNegra said:

Studying in areas other than writing can give you loads of experiences for your writing. Working in areas other than writing can also help gain experiences. I am planning on studying a career in merchadotechnics (lousy translation, sorry), but I'm thinking on a course on literature or journalism. My main choice for career, however, has nothing to do with my passion for writing. More experience for me

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Experience is wonderful to give you things to write about, but experience doesn't make the writing itself any better. A minor in journalism, or English lit, or creative writing would be of great benefit.

And I suspect experience is most valuable when the experience is something you can write about that will interest readers.

An MFA is no substitute for life experience. If you were dead set on writing a novel that centered around commercial fishing, you could spend a month or two doing it, write the novel, and be done writing before you would have received any degree.

Would it be as polished? Hardly, but the lingo, stink, and grit would be there (arguably better if well written).

Not that an MFA is worthless - any practice writing is good. And a structured, dedicated time to focus on craft would be a great thing. It really comes down to what you want to get from your time, and what you expect from your writing. If you are the kind of person that can read and study the craft of writing on your own, then courses may only slow you down.

Jamesaritchie said:

And if there's anything this world doesn't need more of, it's lawyers. Better another unemployed writer than an employed lawyer.

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No way! My brother is going to be a lawyer, and he's going to help the poor. He was going to volunteer at the Southern Poverty Law Center, that bankrupts racist hate groups, but he lives too far away from it.

Diva, one thing about getting an MFA is that you will learn more. In class last night, my instructor was saying that it's good to put in a query letter what writing experience you have. If you don't have very much, and MFA would be better than a BA. I'm always a fan of learning. Some people can't stand going to school, but if you can do it, and afford it, why not?

I'd say get the MFA first. A lot of programs will give you stipends and/or TA jobs, so you won't go into (relatively speaking) much debt there. Then, if you decide law school is the thing for you, you'll be able to get student loans for that as well.

Once you go through three years of law school, you're going to have to pay it off somehow. Unless your parents are well-off and supportive (nothing wrong with that - my parents are supportive but unfortunately not rich), you'll need to work, not start another graduate program.

Going to law school is no walk in the park. It's like medical school in that way: it totally transforms you. You learn to speak lawyer, think lawyer. The texts are written in a foreign language--legalese--and it's a total immersion course. You are expected to speak it from day one.

I wouldn't go to law school unless I wanted to be a lawyer. Just as I wouldn't recommend med school to anyone who didn't want to be a doctor.

I guess it depends on whether you want to study writing so you can be a writer, or study law so you can be a lawyer.

SusanR

I am a lawyer.

Don't go to law school unless you want to practice law. It sucks far too much and is far too expensive to bother with otherwise.

Lots of people do something else college and law school--approximately half my classmates at Yale weren't coming straight out of college. Go work for a while before you decide.

Credibility. Having the degree allows you to move into new social circles; opens new doors; allows for expansion and breadth of experience. Gets you to meet and see people you wouldn't see otherwise.

Sorry, but I'm strongly of the opinion that formal higher education is largely unnecessary to the process of writing. Writing is the ONE thing that doesn't require a degree, and I sort of like it that way. I'm happily a proud high school graduate who has done extensive additional study of books and theories and the like. But would I PAY a college or university to get the same thing I can get for free at the local library, and through discussing theories/lectures/books with learned men and women over coffee? Heck no!

As for contacts in the book world and such, I suppose MFA classes can be useful for people less aggressively outgoing than me.

Just me, though, and I know I'm in the minority. But I did want to state the opposite side. Please, do continue the discussion.

An important reason for doing it: personal fulfillment. A writer who wants an MFA or PhD should get one.

DivaNicoletta said:

Has anyone found this to be helpful/useful, or in your opionion, is a waste of time and money? I am comtemplating whether going to law school, or getting my mfa in creative writing. I am 22 so I have plenty of time. Anyone have thoughts? TIA!

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I'm a 2L in law school. I contemplated the same thing and ultimately decided on going to law school. I didn't go for an MFA for three reasons:
1. I received an undergraduate degree in creative writing and I wasn't sure that I wanted to go through those workshops again;
2. I come from a working class family and cost-benefit wise, I thought law school would be a better bet for keeping food on the table; and
3. I wanted a professional/grad degree, but I didn't want to go to school for 5+ years. Law school is only 3 years.

I'm glad I made the choice because I do enjoy learning law and I can't wait to start practicing. However, I would advise doing something you love because law school, for people who do not like learning law, can be extremely demoralizing - there is the technical autocracy, the pettiness of fellow students, the constant stress of trying to get the best grades, get a job, or just finding time to let your creative side out. If you haven't yet, get a job at a law firm and see if you like the culture and the work.

SusanR said:

Going to law school is no walk in the park. It's like medical school in that way: it totally transforms you. You learn to speak lawyer, think lawyer. The texts are written in a foreign language--legalese--and it's a total immersion course. You are expected to speak it from day one.

I wouldn't go to law school unless I wanted to be a lawyer. Just as I wouldn't recommend med school to anyone who didn't want to be a doctor.

I guess it depends on whether you want to study writing so you can be a writer, or study law so you can be a lawyer.

SusanR

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Yes, I know some lawyers, and they all say law school is a very tough choice.

But in my opinion, the worst thing about law school, the utterly horrible thing about law school, is that when you graduate you're a lawyer. As the old joke goes, "Not all lawyers are bad or dishonorable people, it's just the 99% who are that give the others a bad name."

I do know one lawyer who says it's easy to tell good lawyers from bad ones. The good ones are those who learn they hate being a lawyer, and get out of the profession as soon as possible.

Seriously, I think going into any profession because of the money/career is a serious mistake. Such is not the road to happiness. The thing to go to college for is the thing you most want to spend your life doing.

Cathy C said:

Just me, though, and I know I'm in the minority. But I did want to state the opposite side. Please, do continue the discussion.

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That makes two of us, Cathy!
I didn't have the chance to go to college when I was the right age, but I did do a lot of travelling. It's people you need to know in order to write well, and just going out into the world, meeting as wide variety of people as you can, trying to understand them, feel with them, experience life in their shoes, is the best education a writer can get. A degree doesn't hurt, of course, but I think the time is better spent otherwise, if you're young. You can always go to school when you're older.

Cathy C said:

Sorry, but I'm strongly of the opinion that formal higher education is largely unnecessary to the process of writing. Writing is the ONE thing that doesn't require a degree, and I sort of like it that way. I'm happily a proud high school graduate who has done extensive additional study of books and theories and the like. But would I PAY a college or university to get the same thing I can get for free at the local library, and through discussing theories/lectures/books with learned men and women over coffee? Heck no!

As for contacts in the book world and such, I suppose MFA classes can be useful for people less aggressively outgoing than me.

Just me, though, and I know I'm in the minority. But I did want to state the opposite side. Please, do continue the discussion.

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I agree with you.

I did consider, for a long time, studying a career that would hone my writing skills. But right now, I'm dead set on studying anything that has nothing to do with writing, and I have two main reasons of doing so:

1) The expericence I will get.

2) I understand writing rarely makes a living, and if my writing career doesn't launch off or I don't make enough money writing or I can't get my MS published; then I have plan B: another job that will surely bring food to my table.

Kate Nepveu said:

I am a lawyer.

Don't go to law school unless you want to practice law. It sucks far too much and is far too expensive to bother with otherwise.

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I have a friend who studied law and after his second year dropped out because he'd rather be a chef. Dropping out costs a lot of money and time (he wasted two years of his life because of that), so it's a good idea to know exactly what you want before making a decision, because your career choice is a mayor decision that may affect the rest of your life.

Higher education gives you access to research materials, classes and discussion. Do you have to do it? Nope, but it is fun....

I remember reading in some interview where a recently published novelist stated that he ended up going through the MFA program simply because he didn't seem to have time to write in his life, and wanted to force himself to have the discipline. Which, in my opinion, is quite an argument AGAINST MFA programs. Anything that crutches up weak writers and hands them a big network...

But, I do think MFA programs are the last organized bastions of good poets, good poetry, and dedicated short story writers we have in this country, and for that reason alone are worth saving and preserving.

As a novelist, I have always tried to find "interesting" jobs, where I get to do cool stuff and have experiences that help my writing. For some reason, I've never had a problem making myself sit down and write well.

My first is out in 2007.

Okay, I have one problem making myself sit down and write well... The Internet. Goshdarn you, Al Gore!