Third Person Omniscient?

[SusanR]

Can anyone suggest novels written in third person omniscient? I've not read with an eye to craft sufficiently to be able to generate my own list. I'd also appreciate any insights on using this POV you'd care to share. If you have work of your own in this POV that you'd care to share, I'd be sincerely grateful for the tutorial. I'm having trouble getting my narrator's voice right. I've had readers call my attention to troublesome "head-hopping", but those scenes sound right to me. I'm afraid I might be missing something huge, like a boulder. Or an iceberg. All suggestions and comments gratefully appreciated.


SusanR

[AdamH]

Hi Susan,

There's an interesting new thread in Short Stories all about POV including 3rd person Omniscient.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23237

Very well detailed.

[loquax]

3rd person omniscient often lends itself to fantasy. For a spectacular example I'd check out the Gormenghast triolgy by Mervyn peake. He has dozens of characters, only a few of them central, and gets into all their heads. He will also describe a scene that is absolutely free of characters - sweeping through the castle and describing what he the narrator sees along the way.

All I can say is it's very hard to pull off. Often it ends up as a luke-warm POV, with no real definition. However, you can slip into omni every now and again without many people raising an eyebrow. Using harry potter as a well known example, the first chapter of GOF is omni, and the quidditch scenes often describe Ron and Hermione doing stuff Harry could know nothing about.

"Head hopping" is when your POV character changes. In true omni, this is standard. However, if you have initiated the story with one POV character, to all of a sudden say that their best friend "felt tired" a few chapters in, will really throw your readers.

The best advice I can think of is to NOT attempt omni unless you're absolutely sure about it. It is a unique style that lends itself to stories that demand it.

[Avalon]

What's your genre, SusanR?

[SusanR]

What's your genre, SusanR?


Ummmm, I'm really not sure.

It's a complex novel, but it can best be described as a historical novel wrapped in medical examiner mystery-thriller. LOL...clear as mud, right?

Initially I wrote the contemporary sections in the first-person POV of the medical examiner, but I'm changing it to a close third. It's the sections from the past that I'm trying to write with a big, omniscient voice. It's those sections giving me trouble.

I just can't seem to tell the story as the narrator without slipping in and out of people's heads. I keep re-reading and I don't think it's ever confusing as to who is thinking or doing something, but I'm concerned about it as I hear about the pitfalls of this POV.

I'm going to go check out the other thread, thanks for the heads-up.

SusanR

[PeeDee]

I've had an idea bouncing around for awhile now, mostly along these lines. I think it'd be fun to write a story where you start out in first person with a very grim character, and as the story goes and he's starting to grow emotionally cold and distant, you too start to grow distant, 'till you're in third person.

But it's just a gimmick, and without a story to go with it, I won't bother doing anything with it.

(this post was of absolutely no help at all, I'm afraid.)

[Sage]

I've had an idea bouncing around for awhile now, mostly along these lines. I think it'd be fun to write a story where you start out in first person with a very grim character, and as the story goes and he's starting to grow emotionally cold and distant, you too start to grow distant, 'till you're in third person.

But it's just a gimmick, and without a story to go with it, I won't bother doing anything with it.

(this post was of absolutely no help at all, I'm afraid.)

This would be awesome if you could pull it off. That'd be really difficult, though.

[reph]

I think it'd be fun to write a story where you start out in first person with a very grim character, and as the story goes and he's starting to grow emotionally cold and distant, you too start to grow distant, 'till you're in third person.
One story in Dubliners does something related. The character is emotionally remote all the way through. The narrator says this man had a habit of making up statements about himself in the third person and the past tense.

If a POV is omniscient, doesn't it have to be third person unless the narrator is God or has magic powers?

[Jamesaritchie]

I just can't seem to tell the story as the narrator without slipping in and out of people's heads. I keep re-reading and I don't think it's ever confusing as to who is thinking or doing something, but I'm concerned about it as I hear about the pitfalls of this POV.

I'm going to go check out the other thread, thanks for the heads-up.

SusanR

Try telling those sections in first person, and then change them to third person limited. Confusion isn't the only issue with getting in and out of different chracter's head. Even when you can tell who's head is beinginvaded, it doesn't make the reading any better. Many other problems arise from this, including breaking the attachement the reader is trying to build with the POV character.

Third person limited is really extremely close to first person, and sometimes the best way to avoid unintentional head-hopping is to start with first person, and then rewrite it as third person limited in the next draft.

[Christine N.]

Put yourself inside the POV person's head. Look out through there eyes, like you're going on a ride with them. Then remind yourself that you don't know what other characters are thinking. At all. But that doesn't mean you can't guess.

Third limited is usually what I use. Most of the MG/YA fantasy I've read (and I've read A LOT) is written the same way.

[fallenangelwriter]

[QUOTE=loquax].

"Head hopping" is when your POV character changes. In true omni, this is standard. However, if you have initiated the story with one POV character, to all of a sudden say that their best friend "felt tired" a few chapters in, will really throw your readers.

QUOTE]

even when writying omniscient, head-hopping isn't advisable. head-hopping is changing POV frequently mid-scene.

an omniscient narrator knows everything, and can thus say anything it chooses to. but, rapidly switching POV characters is confusing, disruptive, and otherwise unpleasant to a lot of readers.

many fantasy books have large number sof POV characters, but every scene is told only from one character's point of view, thus making it really jsut a collage of 3rd lmited stories.

[Jamesaritchie]

Head-hopping is only standard in omniscient when the omniscient is poorly written. All the faults of head-hopping still exist, and you can't just switch to omniscient so you can get away with something that's poor writing no matter who does it.

You do have a little more leeway in omniscient, but not much more. Jumping from head to head still confises readers, still takes them out of the story, and still breaks the bond they're trying to build with teh POV character.

[brokenfingers]

Can anyone suggest novels written in third person omniscient?

Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove was written in third person omniscient and had mid-scene head hopping galore. It also won a Pulitzer prize as well as many other awards.

It all depends on the execution. If it works, it works. If it doesn't - well, then it doesn't.

It's up to the individual writer and their skill, story and vision.

[SusanR]

Thanks for the suggestion. I've never read LONESOME DOVE, and now I will. That's really what I need, a crash course in reading to learn craft, and since I'm convinced that I have to write this section of my novel with an omniscient voice, I'd better have idea of how it's been done.

Uncle Jim's offering the opening of Dickens' CHRISTMAS CAROL helped, too. That made me aware that you could write the narrator as if s/he were talking directly to the reader, telling the story.

If anyone comes across any other examples of this POV in novels, please do shout out, and I will add them to (growing) reading list.

Thanks, bunches.
SusanR

[aruna]

Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove was written in third person omniscient and had mid-scene head hopping galore. It also won a Pulitzer prize as well as many other awards.

It all depends on the execution. If it works, it works. If it doesn't - well, then it doesn't.

It's up to the individual writer and their skill, story and vision.

Another writer who pulls it off is Vikram Seth, in A Suitable Boy. On the very first page he switches between mother and daughter POV, back and forth, several times. On page 227 there;s an example of him switching POV mid-sentence: "Dr Durrani did not even notice that SUnil was imitating his manner of speech; Sunil himself was still in imitative mode after his kathak performance, and only noticed it himself after he had done it."

He does it regularly mid-paragraph: "Into this scene walked a tall, white-haired gentleman, Dr Durrani. he was mildly surprised to see what was going on inside. Sunil froze in mid-dance, indeed in mid-stance - but then went forward to greet his unexpected guest."

And Seth is a well-respected literary writer. That book is one of my favourites; he pulls it off without you even noticing.

[loquax]

From Titus Alone:
They complied at once, and although they were taken aback at the preremptory nature of his order, he could see that he now had complete control over them -

This is only the beginning of the sentence, yet we've started out from the POV of two people (only allowed in omni), then skipped promtly on to somone completely different, mid sentence. I regard this as extreme head hopping. Yet if you set back and let him tell you the story, it doesn't seem too bad.

[the debster]

In my opinion one of literature's finest up and coming talents is Zadie Smith. Her WHITE TEETH is an excellent example of perfectly crafted 3rd person omniscent.

Also, Edward P. Jones's THE KNOWN WORLD (Pulitzer Prize winner 2004). Even the mule as a POV at one point.

These are both quite literary, but well worth studying if you're considering even attempting this POV.

DJL

[SusanR]

If you would indulge me, I'd like to post a short section of my WIP that contains an example of what I'm struggling with....could you please tell me if there's a problem with the POV?

A little set-up: Laura is Margaret's 12-year-old slave. Chloe is the cook/housekeeper, also a slave--she's raised Laura since her mother died in childbirth. Hunter is a free colored man and Laura's father, and he's come this day to offer to buy her freedom from her owner. It's tricky, because he's been visiting Laura for years, something her master expressly forbade many years ago.

***


Morning. Margaret, almost twelve years old, sat at her vanity table lost in appreciative contemplation of her features reflected in the mirror. The rising sun filtered through the multi-paned window of her bedroom. It spilled over her like rich syrup, spinning gold and red strands out of her light brown hair. Laura stood behind her rhythmically brushing that silky, waist-length hair with her good hand, and both were mesmerized by the fine crackle that rippled Margaret’s tresses as the brush swept through again and again. Laura admired Margaret’s fineness every bit as much as Margaret, and loved this morning ritual. She’d never had a doll. She didn’t need one. She had Margaret, and Margaret had her.


###


Afternoon. Hunter’s heart thumped wildly in his chest as turned the buggy off the road and onto the farm path leading to the stone house. He felt as if he were moving through molasses, seeing himself from afar. He unhitched the horse with trembling hands, hobbled him, and left him to browse what greenery there was amongst the trees lining the drive. He took a deep breath and let it out slowly, and his nostrils filled with the sweet, thick scent of ripe strawberries. He patted the concealed waist-pouch beneath his shirt, comforted by the solid feel of good money.
He walked the familiar stone path towards the rear of the house. Chloe was making jam in the summer cookhouse, a small outbuilding near the main house and adjacent to the gardens. Baskets overflowing with small, sweet ripe strawberries lay outside the kitchen, and bees busily hummed about them, seeking nectar. Fragrant applewood smoke danced arabesques from the stone chimney, and he could hear the feminine chorus, a duet of chatter, from inside.

He stood in the entrance, and saw Chloe and Laura breaking up cones of sugar, mashing strawberries, and stirring pots of simmering crimson fruit, the smell now so rich he could taste strawberries at the back of his throat. No sound came out of his opened mouth when he tried to announce himself, but Chloe turned, sensing him. Her oversized wooden spoon dripped strawberry syrup onto the packed dirt floor.

"Hunter! Glory be!" She dropped the spoon on the table next to the cookstove, and pulled Hunter inside the steaming kitchen. "Master Van der Planck prob’ly comin’ by soon for his supper," she said. "You picked a dangerous time to visit this day."

"Chloe, don’t fret. I meant to come now. Laura, how you’ve grown! You gettin’ to be one fine young lady,’ he said, in a voice thick with emotion. "Don’t be shy, now. Come give your daddy a proper hug."

####

That's the voice of pretty much 150-200 pages of text so far--a lot of work has gone into it. I wrote most of it before I knew anything about POV. I don't "hear" anything wrong with the point of observation, but I know how easy it is to miss things in my own work. It seems to me to be definitely omniscient, right? But is it "bad"? I'd really appreciate your thoughts.

SusanR

[SusanR]

Debster, thank you....adding to the reading list and heading off to the library now!


SusanR

[reph]

No sound came out of his opened mouth when he tried to announce himself, but Chloe turned, sensing him.
Here the POV jumps from Hunter to Chloe. Hunter has no way of knowing Chloe "sensed" him. All he knows is, she turned just then.

And in the first paragraph, if you've brought in a mirror just to tell the reader what color Laura's hair is – well, don't do that.

[Avalon]

I read somewhere that you only get to use mirrors once in your career, and it's a good idea to save them for later when you're better. (Not that you're not better, Susan! It just seemed topical.) :)

[loquax]

Even then it should be something like "she broke the mirror over that cheating bastard's face".

[PeeDee]

"You only get a mirror once in your career."

What a cool concept. I hope I haven't already wasted mine! :)

[JerseyGirl1962]

Morning. Margaret, almost twelve years old, sat at her vanity table lost in appreciative contemplation of her features reflected in the mirror. The rising sun filtered through the multi-paned window of her bedroom. It spilled over her like rich syrup, spinning gold and red strands out of her light brown hair. Laura stood behind her rhythmically brushing that silky, waist-length hair with her good hand, and both were mesmerized by the fine crackle that rippled Margaret’s tresses as the brush swept through again and again. Laura admired Margaret’s fineness every bit as much as Margaret, and loved this morning ritual. She’d never had a doll. She didn’t need one. She had Margaret, and Margaret had her.


This is okay, but what Reph said is also what I've heard - don't have your character in front of a mirror just so a reader can get an idea what color someone's hair is.

Could you have Laura and Margaret talk to each other about their hair or something? There's no dialog at all in this section, and maybe that would be a good way to break things up.



Afternoon. Hunter’s heart thumped wildly in his chest as turned the buggy off the road and onto the farm path leading to the stone house. He felt as if he were moving through molasses, seeing himself from afar. He unhitched the horse with trembling hands, hobbled him, and left him to browse what greenery there was amongst the trees lining the drive. He took a deep breath and let it out slowly, and his nostrils filled with the sweet, thick scent of ripe strawberries. He patted the concealed waist-pouch beneath his shirt, comforted by the solid feel of good money.

He walked the familiar stone path towards the rear of the house. Chloe was making jam in the summer cookhouse, a small outbuilding near the main house and adjacent to the gardens. Baskets overflowing with small, sweet ripe strawberries lay outside the kitchen, and bees busily hummed about them, seeking nectar. Fragrant applewood smoke danced arabesques from the stone chimney, and he could hear the feminine chorus, a duet of chatter, from inside.


I'll say one thing...you certainly have a poetic way of describing things! (That's a compliment, BTW. :))



He stood in the entrance, and saw Chloe and Laura breaking up cones of sugar, mashing strawberries, and stirring pots of simmering crimson fruit, the smell now so rich he could taste strawberries at the back of his throat. No sound came out of his opened mouth when he tried to announce himself, but Chloe turned, sensing him. Her oversized wooden spoon dripped strawberry syrup onto the packed dirt floor.

"Hunter! Glory be!" She dropped the spoon on the table next to the cookstove, and pulled Hunter inside the steaming kitchen. "Master Van der Planck prob’ly comin’ by soon for his supper," she said. "You picked a dangerous time to visit this day."

"Chloe, don’t fret. I meant to come now. Laura, how you’ve grown! You gettin’ to be one fine young lady,’ he said, in a voice thick with emotion. "Don’t be shy, now. Come give your daddy a proper hug."


Some more nice description...and some dialog! (I was beginning to wonder what some of the characters sounded like.) Like Reph said, the only mix of POVs that I could find was the same Reph did "but Chloe turned, sensing him." You're in Hunter's POV of, but then suddenly you're in Chloe's POV. IMHO, all you'd have to do is delete the "sensing him" and that section is fine.

I'm critting a chapter right now, and although the story's a good one, the person who wrote it is having a hard time deciding what POV he wants to stay in (sometimes in mid-sentence). I've never read Lonesome Dove, so I can't really comment, but I have to say that as a reader, I don't like to jump from one character's head to another within the same sentence.

Same scene? Maybe. But even that's jarring to me. And you've also separated your POV changes (with those pound signs). I find that very helpful, because then I know something important is coming up...like a POV change.

If this is indicative of what you've written, SusanR, I don't see a big problem. A little bit of confusion on POV, but it's very slight. I would try Christine's tack to imagine you're in whichever viewpoint character you're in and see it through his/her eyes (and only *guess* at what other characters may be thinking).

Besides, don't a lot of writers have at least a little problem with POV? I certainly do.

Good luck!

~Nancy

[paprikapink]

I think that one of the reasons "A Confederacy of Dunces" is one of my all-time favorite novels is because I get to know what's going on in every character's head. The author does generally go scene by scene.

I think it can add more dimension to your characterization when you can show what the character thinks of him or herself and what others think of him or her, and how different characters perceive the same situation.

[fallenangelwriter]

Nancy-


I don't think adding pointless discussion of hair helps a mirror scene. the whole point is that the mirror scenes are often irrelevant. adding more ireelevance doesn't help anything.

on the other hand, if the discussion of hair touches on a plot point (they're trying to look thier best because...) or establishes their rlationship or otherwise is important, maybe the scene would benefit.
dialog purely for the sake of dialog is no mroe interesitng than such small talk in real life..

[JerseyGirl1962]

Nancy-
I don't think adding pointless discussion of hair helps a mirror scene. the whole point is that the mirror scenes are often irrelevant. adding more ireelevance doesn't help anything.

on the other hand, if the discussion of hair touches on a plot point (they're trying to look thier best because...) or establishes their rlationship or otherwise is important, maybe the scene would benefit.
dialog purely for the sake of dialog is no mroe interesitng than such small talk in real life..

All true. Merely making a suggestion, nothing else.

[jules]

I don't think the mirror is too bad here. I would naturally expect a mirror to be present in that scene -- I'd probably imagine one even if it wasn't mentioned, and I reckon it provides interesting characterization of Margaret. Also note that the description of that hair is mostly from Laura's POV, who is working with it at the time, so describing it there is the most natural thing. My only comment on that part is: what is the point of the scene? It doesn't seem to advance the story, as far as I can see. It shows us about the characters, but perhaps something else happening could add a little more interest to the scene. I think it might benefit from dialogue, although it would have to be something interesting.

As to the POV use, it seems fine to me. If this is the section that has been described as confusing, then I think your readers are being too picky. All the changes in focus are clear, and there is nothing that pulls me out to think "whose thoughts are those?", which is the biggest danger with omniscient.

[reph]

I noticed another place where the POV might need attention.

Morning. Margaret, almost twelve years old, sat at her vanity table lost in appreciative contemplation of her features reflected in the mirror. The rising sun filtered through the multi-paned window of her bedroom. It spilled over her like rich syrup, spinning gold and red strands out of her light brown hair. Laura stood behind her rhythmically brushing that silky, waist-length hair with her good hand, and both were mesmerized by the fine crackle that rippled Margaret’s tresses as the brush swept through again and again. Laura admired Margaret’s fineness every bit as much as Margaret, and loved this morning ritual. She’d never had a doll. She didn’t need one. She had Margaret, and Margaret had her.
"Margaret...sat...lost in...contemplation": Margaret's POV.

"Both were mesmerized": Definitely omniscient. Neither girl can know whether the other is mesmerized, let alone by what.

"Laura admired...and loved...never had a doll...didn't need one": Laura's POV.

"She had Margaret, and Margaret had her": Some of each?

Now, if you're deliberately going for omniscient, this is fine. Omniscient works as well in this scene as anywhere because the scene is about the relationship. Omni prevailed in 19th-century novels, and readers didn't complain, as far as I know. It's pretty much gone out of style, however, and you might have trouble selling a manuscript that uses it. Another potential pitfall is inconsistency between omni scenes and individual-POV scenes in the same book.

[SusanR]

Thanks, everybody, for the helpful comments. Since I am deliberately going for that omniscient voice (hoping for an "old-fashioned" flavor), I guess I am just going to have to press on, and let an editor or agent (hopefully) one day tell me if it needs to be rewritten.

During my subsequent drafts, I will have to read very carefully and make sure it's never confusing who is doing or saying or thinking.

In the meantime, I have a nice list of books to read, thanks to your suggestions. Hopefully, I'll learn something from them.

Thanks again!
SusanR

[Mac H.]

If you are thinking about POV, a good discussion is here: Site link removed per request of other site's Webmaster

It's written by a screenwriter (of Aladdin etc) so is very visual oriented.

Ever since I read it, I've never been able to consider POV without thinking of that poor little parrot ...

Mac

[SusanR]

Mac,

Thanks for sharing the link. I see what you mean about the parrot.

This site is such a great resource, thanks to folks like you who bother to post links, essays, and opinions. Much appreciated.

SusanR