Can/should a novel contain multiple premises?

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CharacterInWhite

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Let me qualify this question before you answer it.

I've been reading How to Write a Damn Good Novel by James N. Frey, going along the book like it's a mental check list to see if I've been a good boy with my manuscript.

I'm 64 pages in, thinking "So far, so good." I obviously did enough reading before I tried writing to intuitively pick up on the expectations of readers such that my manuscript violates no major rules. I didn't even start my third draft (noticeably better according to my alpha readers) until I finished a conscious introduction to literary theory. I'm not just a wide-eyed wannabe, I think. I've got real potential!

Until I read the sentence "A novel contains one, and only one, premise" and I agreed. Sort of. (Worth noting that many of these lessons have been put forward by considerably older theorists--Frey does not claim originality to these theories, he has simply compiled them in one easy-to-read place and provided examples of their application).

Now, Mr. Frey/Aristotle had previously stated in the same work that "A dramatic story contains one, and only one, premise." He used the word story, book, and novel almost interchangably--which, to be fair, so did I.

The next point that was made was that every scene, every line of dialogue and every word you put in your manuscript must take steps to prove that premise. Once again, I wholeheartedly agreed. I think this is what pros call "trimming the fat."

So I was giddy with joy when I looked at my manuscript and identified a premise right away. Then my face fell, when I realised a secondary aspect had its own premise, independent of the first. Then I started crying, because a tertiary aspect had yet another premise. My novel has three separate premises.

So, my question to you fine people at Absolute Write, as as follows:

Can a novel contain multiple stories, and still be a unified whole? Would each of those stories prove their own premise without intruding on one another?

I am not reluctant to "cut the fat" from my manuscript (my first and second drafts have contributed exactly one sentence to my third). That said, the secondary storyline in my manuscript (a romantic sub-plot) exists to garner sympathy for the MC and her partner--so that when they're put in danger by the main plot later on, the reader has greater interest in seeing the characters succeed. Without this sub-plot, I've had less opportunity to show what makes my MC different from MCs of the genre. Now that I understand that a "good" book is simply one that contains carefully planned pages where each and every scene contributes to the premise, I'm worried that I'm threatening my main premise by making it proximal to an entirely unrelated one.

For those interested, I'll give my premises:

In the main plot, a murder mystery, the premise proved is "persistence will result in answers."

In the romantic sub-plot, the premise proved is "open communication leads to stability."

In the tertiary, "day job" case, the premise proved is "not all suspicious people are guilty."

Perhaps this will help you understand my concern--these three premises do not contradict one another, and are only linked by the character. Each could be a story unto itself, but each also serves their own "meta" purpose like giving credence to the MCs credentials (she's the daughter of a private eye) or again, garnering sympathy so you actually give a damn when I threaten the lives of the characters.

Am I shooting myself in the foot or just misinterpreting Frey/Aristotle's meaning?
 

this.is.mark

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I'm no expert by any means but I've always thought that some of the best books I've ever read were like a layered cake.

Many different premises, plots and stories within stories all nicely wrapped up in the end, preferably with a nice little 'I never seen that coming'.

Just makes it more interesting, in fact the more I think about it, wouldn't it be more difficult to stick to one.

Although certainly you should have one main overall premise of the novel.

I think I've just contradicted myself. Auch, it's late here.

MP
 

BethS

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For those interested, I'll give my premises:

In the main plot, a murder mystery, the premise proved is "persistence will result in answers."

In the romantic sub-plot, the premise proved is "open communication leads to stability."

In the tertiary, "day job" case, the premise proved is "not all suspicious people are guilty."

Those are not premises. Those are themes. And yes, a big novel can have more than one theme, but usually there's a predominant one.

So theme is the underlying, universal idea of the story. In Romeo & Juliet, that might be "Love transcends hatred."

A premise is the specific idea explored in the story. The premise of Romeo & Juliet might be something like "two young lovers from warring households defy their parents and fate to be together."
 

BRDurkin

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I'd agree with what Beth said. I think you're confusing premises with themes. And a LOT of novels (if not most) at least touch on several themes in addition to the main one.
 

CharacterInWhite

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From How to Write a Damn Good Novel:

Every good premise should contain an element of character which through conflict leads to a conclusion.


From The Writer's Compass (Nancy Ellen Dodd):

A theme is what you are trying to say, a premise is what you believe to be true or false and want to prove.


So, not to be inflammatory--but for the sake of not getting caught up in semantics I speak of Frey's and Dodd's definitions when I talk of a "premise" being "a statement that can be verified as true or false with the context of a story."

Any other experiences from my fellow writers?


 

Springs

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I would say that what you have is fine. So long as none of your subplots are contradicting each other or the main plot and they all seem to fit together well, include them! In real life, people can learn multiple life-lessons simultaneously, and sometimes different characters may be making different realizations from the same set of events. Also, as they are saying above, it sounds more like you're thinking of themes than premises. So long as everything in your book fits together well, I believe you would fit under the category of one premise.
 

CharlesL83

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Actually if you read James N. Frey's How to Write a Damn Good Novel II he states:

"Every story has a premise. A novel can have more than one story: hence, more then on premise."
To paraphrase, a novel with more then one story becomes a container. The stories within that container are usually share a similar genre, theme, character, time period..etc.
 

blacbird

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Frey's books, which are pithy and and entertaining and not without useful information, are aimed very specifically at "genre" writers. Even there, I think he becomes too formulaic.

caw
 

Her Dark Star

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I think that you're worrying too much about the definition. Many books have multiple layers, subplots etc, the definition of a premise given there may not really reflect what you're writing. From the little information you've given I'd say that you do only have one premise - Daughter of a private eye tries to follow in their parents footsteps while trying to balance the difficulties of a 'normal' life (day job, relationship etc).
The other things are plot and sub plot's and the statements you made are themes and character development points. Don't get too hung up on other people's definitions, if it works as a whole then you're on the right path.
 

Rhoda Nightingale

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A "premise" in this context feels like another word for "plot." The main crux of your story. Every part of your novel should support the main plot and move it forward. That doesn't mean you can't have subplot or mini-stories running at the same time. Just that those things shouldn't hinder or distract readers from the main plot.

Don't take writing advice books too seriously. None of them have to be followed exactly to the letter--or should be. You'll drive yourself bonkers trying to check your novel against someone else's list of what a novel should and should not include. They're a guide--not commandments.
 

SomethingOrOther

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Those are not premises. Those are themes.

You are 100% correct.

I read HtWaDGN, though, and the author mentioned he was using an unconventional definition of premise. I'll mention this to prevent any future terminology arguments (I hope). They'll be woefully beside the point.

CharacterInWhite said:
Would each of those stories prove their own premise without intruding on one another?

CharacterInWhite said:
Perhaps this will help you understand my concern--these three premises do not contradict one another, and are only linked by the character.

It sounds as if you're worrying a bit too much about whether or not premises contradict one another. I'm not exactly sure what that means. Would an example of such a contradiction be one plot's premise being "dogged persistence will result in answers" and another's being "dogged persistence will result in failure"?

Nothing would be wrong with that, even if we stopped here. What makes it even more acceptable is in a premise of the form X leads to Y, it's understood that X and Y are massive oversimplifications of, you know, the actual essence of the novel. (There's a relevant quote about summaries failing to grasp what a novel actually is. I've been forgetting a lot of quotes' origins lately.)

X is not "dogged persistence" but rather "dogged persistence +ɛ" [ɛ being what's lost during summarization], where the value of ɛ is radically different for every single story whose premise's former half you might express as dogged persistence. So even if contradiction were somehow a bad thing, you'd be able to express the set of premises "dogged persistence + ɛ1 will result in answers" and "dogged persistence + ɛ2 will result in failure" as "(ɛ1 - ɛ2) is responsible for whether or not dogged persistence will be successful," which latter is, guess what, your novel's (unspoken) new, noncontradictory premise!
 
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backslashbaby

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I think they just have to blend nicely in a way that pleases readers. There isn't really a formula for that :) The best way to see how that works is by reading works that have pleased readers, imho ;)

They do have to blend. If something feels completely removed from the main story at hand, it is a part readers like to skip. Yours sound like they could blend very well.

My novel WIP has contradictory premises/themes, btw. It's one of those works that brings up questions and doesn't answer them, on purpose. It's a work that takes a look at society, and society is contradictory. The MCs do learn things and grow, and it will wrap up nicely, but there is no one thing to learn overall for readers.
 

BethS

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So, not to be inflammatory--but for the sake of not getting caught up in semantics I speak of Frey's and Dodd's definitions when I talk of a "premise" being "a statement that can be verified as true or false with the context of a story."



Well, just be aware that when talking about novels (and movies, for that mattter), premise has a more specialized definition: it's the basic story idea around which the plot is constructed.
 

Orchestra

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Books don't actually have a premise. A premise is a tool for writer to make his or her book better, more focused. Like any other tool, you use it when it proves useful.
 

Charlie Horse

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To me, it all gets a little murky when defining plot, premise, theme, story. Not to get all metaphoric, because writing is writing and music is music, but a symphony contains several themes, melody lines, orchestral colorings and, like a novel, the good ones all work together to create a cohesive piece.
 

lbender

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I agree with most everybody. You're worrying too much. You're confusing terminology with reality. The best novels have several interesting subplots going on at the same time as the main plot. Unless there's so much going on that you're confusing the reader, don't worry about it. (Actually, there are some high selling writers who have so much going on that I get confused all the time, but that's another story).
 

Niiicola

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Yep, what they said. James Frey may have a lot of good things to say, but he's not the Boss of Everybody in the publishing industry. Sounds like a lot of good stuff to keep in mind, but not necessarily a bible to follow.
 

CharacterInWhite

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Thank you all for your lovely responses :D

And yes, I do get caught up in definitions. You can't argue on whether something is X unless you know what X is, which is my beef with a lot of philosophical traditions!

SomethingOrOther - your math analogy is surprisingly apt!

Luckily my hiatus off the forum was spent doing exactly what everyone is telling me to--writing, and not worrying. Still, I wanted to see what others had thought on the subject.

writing is writing and music is music, but a symphony contains several themes, melody lines, orchestral colorings and, like a novel, the good ones all work together to create a cohesive piece.

If I had a medal to give you, it would be for this.
 

brianjanuary

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The overall story premise (the MC's main goal and the forces opposing his or her getting it) is different from any sub-plot (of which you can have as many as you'd like, but all of which should thematically shore up the main plot and theme).

You seem to be confusing premise and sub-plot with thematic content--"persistence will result in answers" is a theme, not a premise.
 
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