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Contagious Radiation

Nexus

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I recently wrote and subbed a short story (BONE THRESHER) focusing around a group of Paleontologists who discover a remarkably (almost) complete Dromaeasaur skeleton.

The skeleton is very degraded - and they suspect the degradation occurred before mineral deposits turned the bones to stone.

Turns out that the cause was contagious radiation. As a two-word statement, it might sound very intriguing; might sound entirely implausible.

As far as fiction is concerned, I feel I did the concept justice and made it as plausible as fiction tends to require science to be (think dead bodies walking).

But I am curious about people's take on this...

Some of these details as I tell them now are strongly hinted at, but not outright said. For example, in dialogue two characters talk about the fact that a human is more genetically similar to a goldfish than that goldfish is to a shark - despite the fact that those two animals are fish and we are mammals.

Not only that but the paleontologist cites how he finds the analogous structures between dinosaurs and humans to be "haunting".

Cancerous cells are formed from this radiation. These cancer cells are created in a way that happens to cause them to absorb calcium directly from the blood. Due to a negative feedback loop in our brains, the body sends signals to begin replenishing the blood-calcium levels. Because the cancer is taking the calcium from the blood so quickly, the body must dissolve its own bones to replenish the levels.

Quickly, this leads to brittle bone disease - which is the most apparent symptom of this illness. Meanwhile, this calcium isn't disappearing into thin air... instead the cancer cells are converting it into a radioactive isotope through some unknown biological/metabolic pathway. This causes the victim to gradually become more radioactive, and begin suffering from minor and then major radiation poisoning.

In addition, this radiation causes more cells to become cancerous - and causes the cells of nearby humans to become cancerous.

Thus, the radiation has effectively become infectious and contagious.

I used prions and their method of infection as a parallel description of how a non-living thing can be contagious.



So... what do you guys think? Did I do a good job of making it as plausible as possible within the realm of fiction? Also, what do you think of the idea of "contagious radiation" in general?
 
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jjdebenedictis

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I think this thread should go in The Sandbox forum, not Science Fact, but here are my thoughts:

My biggest problem with the idea is that you make radiation sound almost sentient.

Radiation is just a particle or a photon that erupts out of its parent particle. If that daughter particle happens to crash into some DNA, it might do some damage.

Most of the cells damaged in this way will just fix themselves or die, but every now and then, one might become cancerous instead.

But a "special" cancerous cell? Radiation is a sledgehammer; it doesn't tweak things to serve a specific purpose.

The mutations that cause cancer happen essentially at random, so while your radiation might cause cancer, it would have to be a cancer that humanity has seen before. Somewhere, someone will have been unlucky enough to get that particular mutation already.

The other thing that seems implausible is the idea of our bodies (even cancerous parts of our bodies) could manufacture radioactive elements. Again, that seems too sentient to be believable. Also, it takes a lot of energy to make something radioactive when it wasn't so beforehand, and that's generally more energy than our fragile flesh can withstand.

I think it would be more fruitful for you to have a dormant organism attached to the bones that evolved to use cancer and radioactivity as its means of reproduction. That kind of sounds like what you were going for.

Radioactivity, as I understand it, and cancer (which I understand a whole lot less) can't behave the way you're describing, I'm fairly sure. I think you need some biology to steer the outcome.
 

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How would the radiation from the bones still linger in the fossil if 100% of the bones are replaced with mineral in the process of fossilization?

How could radiation cause only one specific form of cancer? Radiation exposure causes many different cancers.

How could the body create a radioactive isotope? Do some research into what it takes to create those in nature or in the lab.

Radioactive calcium has a half life of 100,000 years, and dinosaurs died out 65 million years ago. So the amount of radioactive calcium still around would be the original amount multiplied by (2x10^-196), which is to say none at all!

Those are the biggest objections I have. If I read this in a SF story, I would have an extremely hard time buying it. It's interesting, but the science fails on many levels.
 

Nexus

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How would the radiation from the bones still linger in the fossil if 100% of the bones are replaced with mineral in the process of fossilization?

======

That was one of my biggest objections to the idea when I created it. But I used a suspension of disbelief for that (Or hoped for it from most readers). Also, its not impossible that radioactive particles would remain in the fossilized bone - theoretically - but very unlikely.

**How could the body create a radioactive isotope?**

By some unknown metabolic or biological pathway :)
I left that open because it would be difficult to devise a way since the pathways I know of don't yet exist - but the amazing things organisms can do never ceases to amaze me. Seems possible on some level.

As for the sentience, I specifically made it clear in the story that was not the case. In the story, one character suggests that - this is his line...

“How can a wave of energy be contagious? It isn’t alive - doesn’t need to reproduce.”

*This is the response*

“It doesn’t have to be alive,” Dr. Gordon said. He searched himself for an analogy. Somewhere, in the back of his mind, he knew it was coming together; but at the same time, it was all falling apart. “Prions! Prions are ingestible infectious proteins. While people argue over whether or not a virus can be considered alive, Prions are far from living. They are nothing more than a string of amino acids warped into a deviant formation. This strange form induces other, healthy proteins to change shape – and become another prion.”

======

As for affecting certain analogous parts of the DNA, that is not impossible. In my time studying genetics (particularly fish genetics), I was able to learn a few things about the highly specific affect of things totally not specific in nature. That part is easier to dismiss than some of the other aspects of the logic here.


jjdebenedictis;6938703 Radioactivity said:
Indeed, which is why the vaguest parts are about the radiation and the most described parts are the biology.
 
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PorterStarrByrd

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I think your understanding of physical plausability and the readers willingness to suspend disbeief is errant. The reason readers accept the walking dead is because that has long been a part of legend/lore/mythology. Science says no .. something deep down inside says 'maybe'. We're conditioned to consider the possibility.

With radiation we know too much science about it. It's too 'new'

something like a long dormant virus trapped in the rock and isolated during fossiization ( sick dinosaur killed instantly in a mud slide) that only needs oxygen to revive taps into that fear of the dead. Could it 'maybe' actually happen?

People either understand half-lives or don't care enough about them to take them into consideration ... and science gets in the way of suspended disbelief. Your explanation will be passed over mentally by the non scientific reader, challenged by those who understand the science. No gain ... possible a loss for you.

wish I had said that better but I think you'll get the idea.
 
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Nexus

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I think your understanding of physical plausability is errant. The reason readers accept the walking dead is because that has long been a pary of legend/lore/mythology. Science says no .. something deep down inside says 'maybe'. We're conditioned to consider the possibility.

With radiation we know too much science about it. It's too 'new'

something like a long dormant virus trapped in the rock and isolated during fossiization that only needs oxygen to revive taps into that fear of the dead. Could it 'maybe' actually happen?

People either understand half-lives or don't care enough about them to take them into consideration ... and science gets in the way of suspended disbelief.

wish I had said that better but I think you'll get the idea.


I get what you are saying.

I guess all I can hope is my explanation is effective enough to suspend disbelief. I feel like it is, as I am very skeptical of my own writing when it comes to science. I tend to shoot my own ideas down well before they make it to paper because of the plausibility.

With my background in genetics and Organismal Biology, and the fact that I convinced myself of the idea - well I hope I can convince most readers of the idea.

Fingers crossed.
 

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I left [production of radioactivity] open because it would be difficult to devise a way since the pathways I know of don't yet exist - but the amazing things organisms can do never ceases to amaze me. Seems possible on some level.
No chemical process is capable of producing radioactivity. That requires a nuclear process. And as far as I know, no organism is capable of producing nuclear reactions.

That said, I'll suspend my disbelief for most any good story that's worth the ride. YMMV.
 

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Contagious radiation in general is not such an odd thought, imho, but it's more because of how radiation can be spread. Of course, the 'carriers' get sick and die quickly.

Their body isn't making the radioactive particles in the kind I'm thinking of. It has become part of their bodies, pretty much, though. The person is certainly dangerously radioactive, so you wouldn't want to be near them.

I could see some sci-fi that added more of a contagious element than probably really ever happens, but I'd go with where/how the particles accumulate. Get contagion by spreading around skin cells, perhaps. That sort of thing. I hope this helps; I'm shit at explaining any of this stuff!
 

GeorgeK

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In addition to what other posters have said, the feedback mechansisms for calcium are not in the brain. They are in the neck, in the thyroid and parathyroids. Look up Calcitonin and Parathyroid Hormone.