Ideas: Save or spend it all?

heza · Jan 19, 2012

"One of the things I know about writing is this: spend it all, shoot it, play it, lose it, all, right away, every time. Do not hoard what seems good for a later place in the book or for another book; give it, give it all, give it now.... "

~ Annie Dillard, The Writing Life

Do you agree? I've seen a lot of places in discussions, here, where someone is talking about their WIPs being too long or too complicated, and someone always suggests cutting back or saving parts of the story for a sequel or another novel, etc.

I've been mulling this over because I have a WIP where a certain aspect (the MCs are foster siblings) is an unassuming backdrop for my story. However, I was looking at it and thought, "You know, I could make a great series out of that foster sibling thing if I took it out of this WIP." (To be honest, the WIP probably won't get finished for a grand while, so there's actually very little point in worrying about this at all.)

I have another WIP (current focus) that I initially thought of as a 3-book series, except the end of the third book could just as easily be the end for the first book. So... do I keep the third-book ending where it is and come up with interim endings for books 1 and 2? Or do I splurge on book 1, make it as exciting as I possibly can and just hope two more bigger and better endings occur to me when I get ready to draft sequels?

Do you find yourself holding back? Or do you spend every idea as soon as you have it?

Polenth · Jan 19, 2012

Not all ideas will fit in a single novel. I have a file with bits and pieces which wouldn't fit, but might do in a later novel. However, I have seen people who say something like, "The first book is a bit slow, but the second book is going to be really exciting!" That's the sort of hoarding not to do. If the first book is boring, no one will get to the second book.

Hilldawg · Jan 19, 2012

I'm really torn on this one. I know that the publishing industry is a fan of sequels - especially if the first book is really good. They want repeated sales on known entities. As a reader, however, I am irritated that every book coming out these days is part of a series. I am nostalgic for the days when a single book could hold the whole story.

But to answer your question fairly (without my bias interjecting), I would say give it all you've got. Make your first book amazing so publishers and readers will want to read more. You'll get new ideas; you're not burning irreparable bridges.

Hill

quicklime · Jan 19, 2012

Polenth said:
Not all ideas will fit in a single novel. I have a file with bits and pieces which wouldn't fit, but might do in a later novel. However, I have seen people who say something like, "The first book is a bit slow, but the second book is going to be really exciting!" That's the sort of hoarding not to do. If the first book is boring, no one will get to the second book.

this.

if i had a really cool idea for a romantic triangle, shoehorning it into a dead man walking revenge tale is going to look like just that; something shoehorned in.

I would say, ideally, give whatever is practical to give instead of squirreling it away. But only give whatever can help the story, never what hurts it.

Al Stevens · Jan 19, 2012

You don't cut down the size of a book by cutting the good stuff. You cut extraneous verbage and things--chapters, scenes, paragraphs--that don't move the story along. If you had enough ideas for one good book, more ideas will come for the next one.

bearilou · Jan 19, 2012

To me, the quote and what you're talking about are not the same thing.

Many times, new writers will try to horde that 'perfect' plot idea. It's their 'baby'. One they've been working on since forever. But they know they don't have the writing chops to do it justice so they are saving it up for when they are better/more experienced writers. As if they're afraid that once they write it, no more ideas, no more 'perfect' ideas will come. That once they've blown their load on that idea, now they're dry.

They hold back, tucking away bits 'for later' because they don't want to 'use up' all their ideas.

So they work on something else, something that doesn't hold the same degree of passion as their one true love story. They stall and find their thoughts float back to it and look at it longingly, wondering if they'll ever be able to do it justice so they never seem to write anything at all.

Which is different from writing something in a WiP and deciding, 'this doesn't really work here, let me pull it out...oh look, I may have use for it another time, in another project'.

I have a tabled idea that felt like I had too much crammed in it and pulled out one of the subplots which is now sitting to the side to be developed as its own idea.

The difference is holding back ideas out of fear that once it's used up, there will never be any more as opposed to understanding that trying to put in too much will make the story unwieldy and perhaps it's best to tease out those elements that don't work for that story and maybe develop them for something else.

aurinko · Jan 19, 2012

I used to have this really bad habit of keeping all my best ideas to use later on in the story, so that the story would just get better and better as you read on. Then I suddenly realized that my readers might not even get to those better ideas, because they were bored by the worse ones used early on. Since then, my policy is to use all the best ideas at the beginning of the story and pray that even better ideas come to my head as I keep writing the thing. (And they do come. Setting the bar low is a bad habit.)

DoctorK · Jan 19, 2012

I was trained as a journalist, and one of my writing instructors told us to never save a great line - to use it right away instead. The thinking is that 1) you're likely to forget it if you "save" it and 2) you may very well come up with something even better next time.

I think the general idea is probably the same for all writing.

Rufus Coppertop · Jan 19, 2012

I think Bearilou's hit the nail right on the head.

heza · Jan 19, 2012

I think my problem and the idea expressed in the quote are the same.

I totally understand what you're all saying, and I agree. Everything in a story should be there for a reason and because it works. (Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned the thing about too-long or overly complicated works....)

To clarify, in my work, I'm not talking about pulling out something that doesn't work where it is or doesn't fit with the story and just finding a use for it later. In my case, both ideas are perfectly fine where they are.

I could do more with the foster idea if I took it out and saved it for a later work. As Polenth says, not every idea will fit; therefore, I can't make it "big" where it is. So do I let the idea be small, sacrifice it so it serves its perfect purpose where it is, or do I pull it out, find something else just as suitable to fill in, and make something bigger out of it later?

The other scenario is sort of the opposite, in that I *am* holding back the ending for Book 3 so that I have "potential" for a series. But, looking at it, everything between the beginning of Book 1 and the end of Book 3 would probably be largely unnecessary. I could just cut to the chase and have a really fast-paced book... but no security in knowing I have that dramatic Book 3 ending.

Hilldawg and Al (eta: and aurinko and DoctorK) , you seem to say what Dillard does--that you have to trust yourself to have good ideas later, too. I try to think the same thing when I get into that funk where I think my prose is suddenly awful; I go back and look at stuff I know is good and say, "See? You wrote that. More's got to be in there somewhere." Same with ideas, I suppose.

There's more to the Dillard quote, btw, in case anyone is interested:

"....The impulse to save something good for a better place later is the signal to spend it now. Something more will arise for later, something better. These things fill from behind, from beneath, like well water. Similarly, the impulse to keep to yourself what you have learned is not only shameful, it is destructive. Anything you do not give freely and abundantly becomes lost to you. You open your safe and find ashes."

Brutal Mustang · Jan 19, 2012

I hold nothing back, these days. If I think it would be cool if a character was a winged cyborg, I'll make that character a winged cyborg. I won't save it for another 'bigger, better' story. New ideas will keep coming. I'll never run out of them.

gothicangel · Jan 19, 2012

I read a comment on Holly Lisle's website recently:

"You will probably also have completely new plot ideas, have great
ideas for new characters who could really shine, and complications
that could just change everything. Don’t indulge yourself by
putting them in this book. Write them down on a separate piece of
paper and save them for the next book. The point of a novel revision
is to finish this book. I guarantee you that as long as you’re
willing to keep piddling around with the same manuscript, you’ll
find ways to make it different. You don’t want to make it different.
You just want to make it as good as it can possibly be, and then
get it out the door.
Why? Because the definition of a writing career is: Write a
book. Write another book. Write another book.
Nowhere in that description is included: Take one story and make
it a monument to every idea you ever had or ever will."

job · Jan 19, 2012

Anne Dillard's quote is spot on.

I've seen this compared to buying party dresses for a little girl and saving them for 'best'. What happens, of course, is the special-enough occasion never arrives; the party dress hangs in the closet and is outgrown and never worn.

Shoot the wad. Never put an idea or a sentence or a character aside just so you can use it later or in the next book. You may write a different book and the wonderful, 'save for best' work never gets used.

KSandoval · Jan 19, 2012

Put everything that fits in the book in the book. Don't save things for later. Ideas are easy, more will always come. Hoarding them only slows you and risks making your current work weak in service to a hypothetical future work. Your loyalty is to your current project and you should give it everything you have.

Layla Nahar · Jan 19, 2012

Brutal Mustang said:
New ideas will keep coming.

This

Arch Stanton · Jan 19, 2012

Use everything that fits. Give every book what you have. As others have stated, new ideas will come.

Baliseth · Jan 19, 2012

I agree with pretty much everything that has already been said. If it fits (even if it's a little bit of a tight squeeze), use it. If you hold on to some perfect character or plot point, chances are you're either going to forget it, or you'll never find a place to use it. Go all in and just let it flow!

Al Stevens · Jan 19, 2012

Remember, an experienced editor gets a crack at it. If it can go, she will tell you. But it might have been the very element that makes the story, and if you left it out, you'd never know. You're too close to it. She is objective.

So, keep the vampire pie-eating scene in the romantic zombie story. Hmm. I'd want to read that...

Sirion · Jan 19, 2012

I think a problem some people have when writing a novel is that they try to save too much for a sequel that may never come.

I think, in the end, it's better that there be so much you might have to cut something out, rather than it being so lacking in substance that it turns out to be boring to the reader.

James D. Macdonald · Jan 19, 2012

What to put in a novel: Cool stuff now. (More cool stuff later.)

heza · Jan 20, 2012

Thanks so much, everyone, for answering the post and helping me out with my issue. The current WIP will take the sequel's ending, and I'll just come up with better endings for the sequels if I end up writing them. And I'll keep my foster family in the book it was conceived for.

Rep points are in the mail.

Ideas: Save or spend it all?

heza

Polenth

Mushroom

Hilldawg

quicklime

all out of fucks to give

Al Stevens

bearilou

DenturePunk writer

aurinko

I should be writing.

DoctorK

I'm not a Dr., I'm a baseball fan.

Rufus Coppertop

heza

Brutal Mustang

Loves interplanetary chaos.

gothicangel

Toughen up.

job

In the end, it's just you and the manuscript

KSandoval

Layla Nahar

Seashell Seller

Arch Stanton

New kid, be gentle!

Baliseth

Al Stevens

Sirion

practical experience, FTW

James D. Macdonald

Your Genial Uncle

heza