The Bad Girl Heroine

dolores haze · Jan 18, 2012

The bad boy hero is an accepted trope in romance novels...as long as he's a good guy by the end. Bad girl heroines, however, are a lot rarer. I certainly don't want every romance I read to feature a bad girl heroine, but I'd personally like a fuller spectrum of romance heroines.

I've done some clicking around and it doesn't seem there are too many readers who agree with me. Some like a "nice" heroine they can insert themselves into, so that they can enjoy the romance vicariously. Some may enjoy the bad boy hero, but want the heroine to be a good woman who saves him from himself.

As readers and writers, what are your views on the bad girl heroine? Love 'em? Hate 'em? I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Elaine Margarett · Jan 18, 2012

I'm not a fan of the bad girl, but I can tolerate her for a time as long as I can understand/sympathize with her. There also has to be redemption; perferably on her own, not becasue a man made her better. <ugh>

Suzanne Elizabeth Phillips (sp?) does a good job turning unlikable lead characters (male or female) into a hero you can't help but like. She uses humor and the character's own self-awareness to bring the reader to the point you're rooting for the character even if everyone else in the book wants him/her to fail.

Ann_Mayburn · Jan 18, 2012

I like a bad girl as long as she isn't a totally unlikeable bitch just like I like a bad boy as long as he isn't a totally unlikeable douche bag.

Cathy C · Jan 18, 2012

I also like a bad girl if she doesn't portray the usual symptoms (think Bad Girls' Date Club on reality TV). I don't want her to be bitchy, whiny, TSTL or plain mean.

So, I suppose that means I don't really want her "bad" :tongue

dolores haze · Jan 18, 2012

Elaine Margarett said:
I'm not a fan of the bad girl, but I can tolerate her for a time as long as I can understand/sympathize with her. There also has to be redemption; perferably on her own, not becasue a man made her better. <ugh>

I get what you're saying, but I've read so many romances where it's the female character who has made a man "better." The love of a good woman and all that. Is it a double standard?

Suzanne Elizabeth Phillips (sp?) does a good job turning unlikable lead characters (male or female) into a hero you can't help but like. She uses humor and the character's own self-awareness to bring the reader to the point you're rooting for the character even if everyone else in the book wants him/her to fail.

I love SEP's writing and humor. But 'bad girl' heroines? From the ones I've read I can think of heroines who are spoiled or flighty or secretive or manipulative, but I can't think of any really bad girl heroines. I haven't read all her books, though.

Ann_Mayburn said:
I like a bad girl as long as she isn't a totally unlikeable bitch just like I like a bad boy as long as he isn't a totally unlikeable douche bag.

Do you think there's more leeway for heroes to be bad than for heroines?

Cathy C said:
I also like a bad girl if she doesn't portray the usual symptoms (think Bad Girls' Date Club on reality TV). I don't want her to be bitchy, whiny, TSTL or plain mean.

So, I suppose that means I don't really want her "bad"

What if she was cold or cruel or arrogant? You know, the typical bad boy hero traits.

Cathy C · Jan 18, 2012

Cruel? No. But I wouldn't accept that as a trait of a hero either.

Cold or distant? Possibly. There would have to be a reason stated somewhat upfront. Fair or not, heroines have to have a better reason than men in a book.

Arrogant? Sure. A lot of alpha-personalities are arrogant. It plays well on the page.

Stacia Kane · Jan 18, 2012

dolores haze said:
I get what you're saying, but I've read so many romances where it's the female character who has made a man "better." The love of a good woman and all that. Is it a double standard?

I think there definitely can be. I know there were people who had big issues with just the idea of my UF heroine's drug addiction, but who didn't have any problem with or even swooned over various drug-addicted or heavy-drinking or whatever heroes.

Do you think there's more leeway for heroes to be bad than for heroines?

Absolutely positively I do, yes.

What if she was cold or cruel or arrogant? You know, the typical bad boy hero traits.

Personally I don't see the problem, especially since you'll be in her POV and can show who she really is. It's not a romance, but Scarlett O'Hara certainly has her faults; she's no less compelling and readers root no less for her throughout.

All this is JMO, of course.

sunandshadow · Jan 18, 2012

I think it would be fun to see a conniving, vain heroine. Like one of those humorous supervillains that usually fails but always springs up again with ego intact and renewed energy and creative nefarious plans.

Cathy C · Jan 18, 2012

Despicable Me - female edition? :ROFL:

Could be a fun heroine!

girlyswot · Jan 18, 2012

sunandshadow said:
I think it would be fun to see a conniving, vain heroine.

Emma.

JustJas · Jan 18, 2012

Interesting discussion. At first when I started reading I thought I would not be able to relate to a heroine if she was selfish or mean, but then I thought why not? I do like main characters to be loveably flawed, but a really bitchy heroine now and then might be a breath of fresh air. Of course she would have to see the error of her ways and be tamed by lurve by the end, but what fun she could be to read about before she's reformed.

Bubastes · Jan 18, 2012

JustJas said:
Interesting discussion. At first when I started reading I thought I would not be able to relate to a heroine if she was selfish or mean, but then I thought why not? I do like main characters to be loveably flawed, but a really bitchy heroine now and then might be a breath of fresh air. Of course she would have to see the error of her ways and be tamed by lurve by the end, but what fun she could be to read about before she's reformed.

I would love to read about a bitchy heroine who says and does all the things I wish I had the courage to say and do!

This is more women's fic than romance, but Darcy in Something Blue fits the bill.

sunandshadow · Jan 18, 2012

Also, the other kind of bad boy, the one who doesn't talk much because he has a lot of emotional scars from his past and is somewhat aggressive and vindictive (but mostly afraid of being hurt more) because he thinks he is undesirable and no one likes him and people suck and he doesn't have the patience to put up with their nastiness... I could definitely empathize with a heroine who was that type of scarred and quietly bitter person. Maybe that already exists though.

KSandoval · Jan 18, 2012

I despise meanness. Male or female, doesn't matter, when a MC is reckless with another's feelings, I'm immediately turned off the character. I can make a sort of exception for banter, where two characters give as good as they get and there's a sort of comfort on both sides.

All that said, I think it'd be harder to pull off the 'bad girl' than the 'bad boy' simply because the expectation of 'niceness' is there for women. It's not right, it's not fair, but it's certainly in a lot of readers heads. Which, I suppose, is why the idea sounds rather appealing to me. I'd like to see someone pull off a likable 'bad girl' protagonist, just to show that it can be done, and that girls need not always be the good one.

elindsen · Jan 18, 2012

Ann_Mayburn said:
I like a bad girl as long as she isn't a totally unlikeable bitch just like I like a bad boy as long as he isn't a totally unlikeable douche bag.

Exactly

Ambri · Jan 18, 2012

I am writing one of these at the moment. She started out as the villainess in my previous MS, and then I had a eureka moment when I realized she was the perfect match for one of the sub-characters. It's definitely a different experience, writing a FMC who's not the Nice Girl. Sometimes, I think I've gone too far, when I'm writing dialog and she's getting snarky . . . I guess the challenge with such characters is to make them sympathetic and likable, without totally transforming their personality by the end of the story.

While we're on the subject, I recently watched Much ado About Nothing, which got me to thinking--personally, I like Beatrice a lot more than I liked Cat/ Caterina in Taming of the Shrew. I'm not sure whether it's because of the wonderful banter between Beatrice and Benedick, or because she stays true to herself, while Cat is "tamed" by the end of the play. What do y' all think? (And hope this isn't too much of a thread jack.)

Lil · Jan 18, 2012

dolores haze said:
I love SEP's writing and humor. But 'bad girl' heroines? From the ones I've read I can think of heroines who are spoiled or flighty or secretive or manipulative, but I can't think of any really bad girl heroines. I haven't read all her books, though.

How bad does she have to be to qualify as bad? Spoiled and manipulative are both pretty bad as far as I'm concerned, whether hero or heroine.

Filigree · Jan 18, 2012

I'm waiting to see a female protagonist as hilariously maladjusted as 'Flashman' from the old George MacDonald Fraser books. Someone who is a liar, a cheat, a coward, and a cad - but oddly compelling and quite honest about it, too.

dolores haze · Jan 19, 2012

I asked if you thought there was a double standard.

Stacia Kane said:
Absolutely positively I do, yes.

KSandoval said:
I think it'd be harder to pull off the 'bad girl' than the 'bad boy' simply because the expectation of 'niceness' is there for women. It's not right, it's not fair, but it's certainly in a lot of readers heads.

This might be a controversial question. In a genre written (for the most part) by women for women, why do you think there is a double standard? Though I've quoted Stacia Kane and KSandoval, the question is for anyone who cares to offer an opinion.

Cathy C · Jan 19, 2012

Probably because we like to believe we're the "better" gender, as far as rational, kind, generous. Less testoserone to get in the way?

After all, if bad behavior was the NORM in women, would the reality shows like "Bad Girls Date Club" and "Jersey Shore", etc., even be interesting?

dolores haze · Jan 19, 2012

Lil said:
How bad does she have to be to qualify as bad? Spoiled and manipulative are both pretty bad as far as I'm concerned, whether hero or heroine.

Oh, I'm thinking much badder than that. I read broadly in the romance genre. Bad girl heroines I've hunted down in the last year or so were: pirates, grifters and other criminal types, bounty hunters, hardened soldiers, corporate spies, courtesans/prostitutes and the like. It goes beyond mere character flaws.

Cathy C said:
Despicable Me - female edition? Could be a fun heroine!

Filigree said:
I'm waiting to see a female protagonist as hilariously maladjusted as 'Flashman' from the old George MacDonald Fraser books. Someone who is a liar, a cheat, a coward, and a cad - but oddly compelling and quite honest about it, too.

Both of these were hilariously funny. Is that the key to a successful bad girl heroine? Keep the reader so amused that she gives the bad girl a bit of a pass?

dolores haze · Jan 19, 2012

Ambri said:
And hope this isn't too much of a thread jack.

No problem with thread jacking *grin* The broader the discussion, the better.

TamaraLynne · Jan 19, 2012

Hmmmmm....I think that when women have done bad things then people have a tendency to look down upon her and for the most part women can be reduced to tears because of others judgements towards her. Men on the other hand give off an attitude if you don't like me.."tuff" so people don't get the satisfaction of pushing a mans buttons.People can be mean. I guess if you make the woman a strong woman who has morals but has messed up in the past...but no one can push her buttons and make her cry and she can remain strong but inside have a good caring heart and is wise...where justice prevails(for some reason I think of Solomon) but in the arms of someone she loves...she can let her guard down and cry...show him that she is just as squishy and soft on the inside and can love with extreme passion.

I'm the type of woman that for some reason allows my buttons to be pushed...I would like to see a stronger woman in romance

CEtchison · Jan 19, 2012

dolores haze said:
Bad girl heroines I've hunted down in the last year or so were: pirates, grifters and other criminal types, bounty hunters, hardened soldiers, corporate spies, courtesans/prostitutes and the like.

I'm guessing you've read "Unclaimed" by Courtney Milan.

A courtesan determined to "ruin" a virtuous man, not for revenge or spite but for money, is exactly what drew me to the story.

I love stories where the classic hero/heroine tropes are used with the roles reversed.

oldhousejunkie · Jan 19, 2012

dolores haze said:
Oh, I'm thinking much badder than that. I read broadly in the romance genre. Bad girl heroines I've hunted down in the last year or so were: pirates, grifters and other criminal types, bounty hunters, hardened soldiers, corporate spies, courtesans/prostitutes and the like. It goes beyond mere character flaws.

Both of these were hilariously funny. Is that the key to a successful bad girl heroine? Keep the reader so amused that she gives the bad girl a bit of a pass?

I originally wrote my heroine as a complete bad ass spy. Sort of like "Alias" and "Dark Angel" only set in the 19th century.

But in the first draft, she came off as unapproachable. So cold and hard it was ridiculous when she finally caved into the hero because it was unexpected. In the subsequent drafts, I toned her down a bit. She's still a bit prickly and sardonic, but she reads more sympathetically now.

I don't have a problem with heroines that do bad things as long they have a good reason for their actions and/or they become conflicted. I would be interested as long as she develops as a character. But unredeeming awfulness is hard to get my head around. And I'm not sure if humor could get me past that. I assume this is because I detest shows like "Jersey Shore" and "Bad Girl's Club."

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