And Then

Orianna2000

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My new beta reader has been making corrections when I use "then" in a sentence. She frequently says that I need to say "and then" instead of just "then". Is this always necessary? Is there a hard and fast rule about when to use "then" vs. "and then"? Or is it a matter of style? (I tried Googling it, but couldn't find anything useful.)

Examples:

I sat beside him on the piano bench, then placed my hand over his, stilling the music.

vs.

I sat beside him on the piano bench and then placed my hand over his, stilling the music.

Or:

Agitated, I took a few steps away, then spun back around.

vs.

Agitated, I took a few steps away, and then spun back around.
 

Bufty

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I think she's wrong if she's done that in blanket fashion, but both above versions are comprehensible.

'And' means at the same time, whereas 'then' means it followed the previous action.

Style and consistency do come into it a tad.

If an Editor thinks using the two together in a particular instance lends more meaning to what you are saying they will no doubt mention it.

This issue keeps cropping up in differing forms -here is last month's thread on it - http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231891 and that thread contains another link...
 
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pegasus

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I sat beside him on the piano bench, then placed my hand over his, stilling the music.

vs.

I sat beside him on the piano bench and then placed my hand over his, stilling the music.


Either way seems fine. Without the conjunction, I might be tempted to use a dash rather than a comma, at least sometimes, but I tend toward excessive drama in my punctuation stylings, so....
 

Jamesaritchie

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"And then" is technically correct, but for fiction, at least, this technicallity is frequently overlooked because of pace and flow.
 

Orianna2000

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This issue keeps cropping up in differing forms -here is last month's thread on it - http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231891 and that thread contains another link...
Thanks. I did a search before I posted the new thread, but it didn't come up with anything.

Either way seems fine. Without the conjunction, I might be tempted to use a dash rather than a comma, at least sometimes, but I tend toward excessive drama in my punctuation stylings, so....
Okay, thanks. Wait, do you mean you would use an em-dash here? I'm scratching my head over that one. They're used to convey an interrupted or cut-off sentence, or to set part of a sentence aside parenthetically, or in rare cases, to draw attention to a sentence that's dramatically important. None of those would apply here. Too much "excessive drama" in punctuation can actually distract from the story you're trying to tell, so be careful with that. If you haven't read it already, I highly recommend A Dash of Style: The Art and Mastery of Punctuation by Noah Lukeman. It's a great guide to the proper use of em-dashes, ellipses, semi-colons, and other methods of punctuation.

"And then" is technically correct, but for fiction, at least, this technicallity is frequently overlooked because of pace and flow.
Okay, that's what I was wondering. Thanks!
 

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I do this too, and I started getting panicky about it. But I've noticed it in a bunch of published books recently with a comma, not a dash.

If you're going to be super technical, "and then" or the dash are the correct way to do it, but it's one of those rules that seems to slide in fiction.

I think you're fine.
 

pegasus

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Okay, thanks. Wait, do you mean you would use an em-dash here?

I mean that I might. The interruption (without the and) is fairly abrupt, at least to my ear.

I'm scratching my head over that one. They're used to convey an interrupted or cut-off sentence, or to set part of a sentence aside parenthetically, or in rare cases, to draw attention to a sentence that's dramatically important. None of those would apply here.

I guess we disagree. I see punctuation marks as way too sacred for hard-and-fast rules. They're like word meanings. No dictionary can contain the meaning of a word and no style book can restrict the use of a punctuation mark.

Something like that is how I see it. Punctuation should be part of the creative process, in my view.

Too much "excessive drama" in punctuation can actually distract from the story you're trying to tell, so be careful with that.

Thanks for the advice. I appreciate it.

If you haven't read it already, I highly recommend A Dash of Style: The Art and Mastery of Punctuation by Noah Lukeman. It's a great guide to the proper use of em-dashes, ellipses, semi-colons, and other methods of punctuation.

I don't know how long you've written, but in my experience, one's punctuation style develops as one goes along. Read the best writers closely. You may be surprised to see how much published work offends the heck out of the stylebooks.

Really, I hope you don't read me as condescending. I'm just trying to express my feeling about it as best I can.
 

Jamesaritchie

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The problem with using an em dash is twofold. One, it isn't required, and two, such sentence structure usually comes up a bunch in a novel, and too many em dashes get old fast.
 

Orianna2000

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I mean that I might. The interruption (without the and) is fairly abrupt, at least to my ear.
Really? I don't see there being any interruption at all, just a series of connected, fluid events.

I guess we disagree. I see punctuation marks as way too sacred for hard-and-fast rules. They're like word meanings. No dictionary can contain the meaning of a word and no style book can restrict the use of a punctuation mark.
I don't understand this at all. Dictionaries provide the meanings of words, that's why they exist. Sure, if you're trying to be philosophical or something, you can't write down the "essence" of what a word means, because that's going to be different for each person. But there still has to be a common ground. The word has to mean something or else it might as well not exist. As far as punctuation, the style guides are there to provide a common ground. Commas are generally used to separate clauses and provide a brief pause where necessary. Periods are used to end a sentence and provide a full stop. Yes, there is some leeway. You can choose to add or subtract a comma to adjust the pace of your sentence. But you can't just stick periods or question marks anywhere you want, because then your writing would become unreadable.

Also, there's a saying: You have to know the rules in order to break them. Know the stylistic rules for punctuation and then you'll be better able to choose when to do something different.

Something like that is how I see it. Punctuation should be part of the creative process, in my view.
I agree that you should use punctuation to enhance your story, but you do need to be careful with it, because too much punctuation will grab the reader's attention and shout, "Hey! Look at me! I'm being stylistic!" It can distract from the story, which is more important than the writing itself. The writing needs to be good enough that it disappears, leaving the reader alone with the story. They want to focus on the characters and the exciting plot. They don't want to be pulled out of the story because the author went a little nuts with the exclamation points.


I don't know how long you've written, but in my experience, one's punctuation style develops as one goes along. Read the best writers closely. You may be surprised to see how much published work offends the heck out of the stylebooks.
You're right, punctuation style does evolve, just as your writing style itself evolves the more you write. Don't take this the wrong way, but in my experience, it's the amateur writers who go crazy with punctuation, because they feel it adds something to their writing style. They don't realize that it becomes a crutch. Once they realize that the story is more important than stylistic tricks, they settle down and allow the punctuation to do its job and disappear into the background.

When I first began writing, many years ago, my stories were rife with dramatic sentences that ended with ellipses. I also used em-dashes in every paragraph. I felt they were important, that they made my writing better. Interestingly, no one wanted to publish my work. Then I read a few grammar and style books and realized that I was overdoing it. I drastically edited out the punctuation and now my writing stands on its own feet.

Really, I hope you don't read me as condescending. I'm just trying to express my feeling about it as best I can.
I didn't think that at all. No worries. It's an interesting discussion. :)
 

pegasus

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Really? I don't see there being any interruption at all, just a series of connected, fluid events.

We all see language differently, just as we see life. :)

I don't understand this at all. Dictionaries provide the meanings of words, that's why they exist. Sure, if you're trying to be philosophical or something, you can't write down the "essence" of what a word means, because that's going to be different for each person. But there still has to be a common ground. The word has to mean something or else it might as well not exist.

Words mean things in human minds -- the sender's and the receiver's. If you get my meaning, then it really doesn't matter what words I use to convey that meaning. That's all I'm saying, really. Same with punctuation. If you get me, you get me.

As far as punctuation, the style guides are there to provide a common ground. Commas are generally used to separate clauses and provide a brief pause where necessary. Periods are used to end a sentence and provide a full stop. Yes, there is some leeway. You can choose to add or subtract a comma to adjust the pace of your sentence. But you can't just stick periods or question marks anywhere you want, because then your writing would become unreadable.

Yes, that's the test. Readability.

Yes. That is the test... readability.

So long as we're readable, I think the words and the punctuations are all fair game. We can have our way with them.

Also, there's a saying: You have to know the rules in order to break them. Know the stylistic rules for punctuation and then you'll be better able to choose when to do something different.

I agree. And just for the record, linguistics was my major, and I've read most every stylebook to come down the pike. I've even read the American Heritage Dictionary, pretty much line by line. There is nothing like studying punctuation as part-and-parcel of Transformational Grammar. It clarifies the why of it all in a way which a brute study of stylebooks can't so easily do, I think.

I agree that you should use punctuation to enhance your story, but you do need to be careful with it, because too much punctuation will grab the reader's attention and shout, "Hey! Look at me! I'm being stylistic!"

Thanks again for your advice. As I admitted early in the thread, I sometimes tend toward a dramatic flair in my punctuation. No one has really complained much, but there's no telling what my readers might really think. They could all be chuckling into their cuffs for all I know.

It can distract from the story, which is more important than the writing itself. The writing needs to be good enough that it disappears, leaving the reader alone with the story. They want to focus on the characters and the exciting plot.

I kinda agree and kinda don't, depending on the type of writing. For action stories, sure. For literary short stories or poetry, no so much.

Don't take this the wrong way, but in my experience, it's the amateur writers who go crazy with punctuation, because they feel it adds something to their writing style. They don't realize that it becomes a crutch. Once they realize that the story is more important than stylistic tricks, they settle down and allow the punctuation to do its job and disappear into the background.

May I ask if you write poetry or short stories?

When I first began writing, many years ago, my stories were rife with dramatic sentences that ended with ellipses. I also used em-dashes in every paragraph. I felt they were important, that they made my writing better. Interestingly, no one wanted to publish my work. Then I read a few grammar and style books and realized that I was overdoing it. I drastically edited out the punctuation and now my writing stands on its own feet.

I'm glad to hear it. So many people seem to think they can just write. I think it has to do with language being so profoundly a part of us from babyhood. Lots of people don't realize the hard work which has to be put into becoming a good writer, just as with every other endeavor.
 

Orianna2000

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If you get my meaning, then it really doesn't matter what words I use to convey that meaning. That's all I'm saying, really. Same with punctuation. If you get me, you get me.
I have to disagree. Writing is an art form and words are how we express ourselves. The words you choose to convey a particular idea are very important. It's the way each individual writer uses words that sets them apart from other writers. You can have two writers write the exact same "meaning" or story concept, but because they choose different words, the stories will end up being vastly different. Same meaning + different words = different story altogether.

I kinda agree and kinda don't, depending on the type of writing. For action stories, sure. For literary short stories or poetry, no so much.

May I ask if you write poetry or short stories?
I've more than 50 short stories under my belt, but now I focus on genre novels and non-fiction. I dabbled in poetry a bit, but never really did much with it. It's too abstract for my taste, I guess.

I don't see why punctuation has to be different for short stories. Poetry, maybe, since it has different rules entirely. But whether I'm reading a short piece or a novel, I still want the punctuation to enhance and support the story, not to stand out and draw attention to itself. Maybe that's just me, though. :tongue

I'm glad to hear it. So many people seem to think they can just write. I think it has to do with language being so profoundly a part of us from babyhood. Lots of people don't realize the hard work which has to be put into becoming a good writer, just as with every other endeavor.
This is very true. When I first began writing, I thought having a good imagination and putting words on paper was all there was to being a good writer. Imagine my surprise when the publishers disagreed! It took several years, but eventually I figured out that I had to learn how to write properly, so that I could better express all those creative ideas.
 

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My last editor removed every instance of "and then" in my manuscript.

She said to choose one or the other. "And" was for simultaneous actions, "then" was used when one action happened just after another.

(She also removed almost every instance of "just" and taught me that I'm a serial "that" abuser.)

I have to admit...it did read better after the edits.
 

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I used to be confused about this also, because when I type in Microsoft Word, the grammar check underlines "comma, then" with green and suggests "and then", every time. I have learnt to ignore it because "and then" over and over again doesn't feel right.
 

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I used to be confused about this also, because when I type in Microsoft Word, the grammar check underlines "comma, then" with green and suggests "and then", every time. I have learnt to ignore it because "and then" over and over again doesn't feel right.
I wouldn't advise trusting MS Word's grammar check. It's wrong more often it's right, in my experience :)
 

Orianna2000

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My last editor removed every instance of "and then" in my manuscript.

She said to choose one or the other. "And" was for simultaneous actions, "then" was used when one action happened just after another.

(She also removed almost every instance of "just" and taught me that I'm a serial "that" abuser.)

I have to admit...it did read better after the edits.

I'll keep that in mind. Usually I don't use "and then", I use either one or the other, like you said, depending on whether the action is simultaneous or sequential. But after my beta-reader kept correcting me, I started using "and then" more often. I'll probably go through and remove most of them.

"Very" is another word that's often overused and unnecessary. Instead of saying, "It was very big," just say, "It was massive," or "It was enormous." Or better yet, describe it: "It rose above me, taller than any skyscraper."
 

pegasus

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I have to disagree. Writing is an art form and words are how we express ourselves. The words you choose to convey a particular idea are very important. It's the way each individual writer uses words that sets them apart from other writers. You can have two writers write the exact same "meaning" or story concept, but because they choose different words, the stories will end up being vastly different. Same meaning + different words = different story altogether.

That's so interesting to me. You say that you disagree but then go on to say perfectly agreeable and reasonable things. Language is such a kick, isn't it? No matter what we say or how we say it, the other guy can still see it as he sees it. Sometmes I despair of language altogether.:)

I've more than 50 short stories under my belt, but now I focus on genre novels and non-fiction. I dabbled in poetry a bit, but never really did much with it. It's too abstract for my taste, I guess.

Just curious -- would you call your short stories literary or genre?

I don't see why punctuation has to be different for short stories. Poetry, maybe, since it has different rules entirely. But whether I'm reading a short piece or a novel, I still want the punctuation to enhance and support the story, not to stand out and draw attention to itself. Maybe that's just me, though. :tongue

Punctuation doesn't have to be different with different works, but I think it can be. If I were writing a romance novel, I wouldn't think twice about the punctuation. I'd just rip the bodices and go on. But with a literary piece, I focus pretty closely on every word and every punctuation. But that's just my way of doing it.

This is very true. When I first began writing, I thought having a good imagination and putting words on paper was all there was to being a good writer. Imagine my surprise when the publishers disagreed! It took several years, but eventually I figured out that I had to learn how to write properly, so that I could better express all those creative ideas.

Yep. It's damned hard work, ain't it? But there's a confidence which comes from the years of slapping words onto paper. A certain style and smoothness. You certainly seem to have it.
 

Orianna2000

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That's so interesting to me. You say that you disagree but then go on to say perfectly agreeable and reasonable things. Language is such a kick, isn't it? No matter what we say or how we say it, the other guy can still see it as he sees it.
Just because I disagree doesn't mean I have to be disagreeable. :)

And you're right, people will always interpret what you say through their own personal viewpoint. What one person finds vulgar and crass, another person might find enchanting and literary. It's all a matter of perspective, opinion, and life experiences.


Just curious -- would you call your short stories literary or genre?
Genre. Science fiction, mainly, but some romance. I've never understood literary. That's the kind of stuff they made us read in school and perhaps I got turned off because of how they made us analyze everything. When I'm reading, I don't want to look for hidden meanings and motivations and symbolism. I just want to enjoy the story. Ironically, I've been accused of inserting double meanings and symbolism into my own work, even when I didn't intend to.

Yep. It's damned hard work, ain't it? But there's a confidence which comes from the years of slapping words onto paper. A certain style and smoothness. You certainly seem to have it.
Thanks. I imagine it's the same with any skill. When you first start out, you haven't a clue what the rules are, or how to do anything, so you just muddle through and do the best you can, feeling like a fool the entire time. But with time and practice (lots of practice), you start getting a feel for things. Sometimes you still fall on your behind, but you're able to get back up and learn from your mistakes. I'm just glad that there's always more to learn, because the day I stop growing is the day I die.
 

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"Very" is another word that's often overused and unnecessary. Instead of saying, "It was very big," just say, "It was massive," or "It was enormous." Or better yet, describe it: "It rose above me, taller than any skyscraper."


That reminds me of this quote:

Substitute "damn" every time you're inclined to write "very;" your editor will delete it and the writing will be just as it should be. ~Mark Twain
 

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Genre. Science fiction, mainly, but some romance. I've never understood literary. That's the kind of stuff they made us read in school and perhaps I got turned off because of how they made us analyze everything. When I'm reading, I don't want to look for hidden meanings and motivations and symbolism. I just want to enjoy the story. Ironically, I've been accused of inserting double meanings and symbolism into my own work, even when I didn't intend to.

I read "genre" fiction or "contemporary" fiction as literary - it's habit at this point. Writers put more of themselves in their writing, and paint more layers into their writing, than they're conscious of. :)

Back to your OP - I suggest mixing up the and's, the then's, both at once, and even neither. I'm a fan of not using either then or and for tense moments.

I sat beside him on the piano bench,
then placed my hand over his, stilling the music.

Nice image, btw.
 

pegasus

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Genre. Science fiction, mainly, but some romance. I've never understood literary. That's the kind of stuff they made us read in school and perhaps I got turned off because of how they made us analyze everything. When I'm reading, I don't want to look for hidden meanings and motivations and symbolism. I just want to enjoy the story. Ironically, I've been accused of inserting double meanings and symbolism into my own work, even when I didn't intend to.

Yeah. People make all sorts of connections which the writer didn't consciously mean. When I read a literary work, I don't look for those connections. I just either feel them or don't -- no matter what the writer intended. But I do enjoy literary work. When it's clear that a writer has attended very closely to his words (and punctuations), I get a certain pleasure from that. Wordsmithing appeals to me. But I started with poetry as a young man, while doing a lot of linguistic study, so I guess I came at writing from that direction moreso than from a storytelling direction.
 

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Back to your OP - I suggest mixing up the and's, the then's, both at once, and even neither. I'm a fan of not using either then or and for tense moments.

I sat beside him on the piano bench,
then placed my hand over his, stilling the music.
See, reading it this way would drive me crazy. I would reach the end and realize that something was missing, then I'd go back and reread it, looking for "and" or "then" and when it was absent, I would think it was a typo. There are times when you can omit words for stylistic purposes, but I don't believe this is one of them, personally.

Wordsmithing appeals to me. But I started with poetry as a young man, while doing a lot of linguistic study, so I guess I came at writing from that direction moreso than from a storytelling direction.
I'm definitely more of a storyteller. The wordsmithing came later for me, as a means of more effectively telling the stories I had bubbling up within me.
 

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I'm definitely more of a storyteller. The wordsmithing came later for me, as a means of more effectively telling the stories I had bubbling up within me.

Lucky you. It's rare for a story to come to me, especially whole. A scene will come or a situation. A character. A thought or bit of dialogue. But storytelling isn't really natural for me. I have to dig into everything and find out what's going on. Then it grudgingly grows. I write and write until the connections reveal themselves.

My main interest is theology, which is all about language, at least the way I do it. So I'm more focused on the words and thoughts than the story mosttimes. Now and again, I even blatantly use the story to tell the theological truth which I'm trying to express. That can become clunky right quick, but there's a fun challenge in working toward deftness.