Breaking rules of First Person POV

Rachel Udin · Jan 13, 2012

I'm debating breaking two rules of First person POV... and I want to know if there are tips on doing them well. (I did check the threads at the top) I have a question on a third.

The first rule I wish to break is using two first person POVs side by side. I know in order to do this one has to clearly delineate the voices of the characters. But what else is needed to do it well? From more than the "read more." But solid things to look out for.

The second one is that the first person POV character is going to get killed about a third of the way into the book and switch to a third person POV character (different character). I took the idea from Psycho, but I know it's one of the golden rules you do not break. I kinda want to take the security of the first person POV and use it to my advantage. Ideas or tips on how to do this and I'll also take the, "Don't do this because" crowd too because that'll tell me how to do it right.

I've also read, though I don't think this is true, that first person POV automatically has to be actually telling a physical character in the book their story... but I don't understand this rule since I have seen multiple stories where the first person POV character wasn't telling it to particularly anyone and I find First Person POV to be a tool--plus I find the whole, "I am telling you this now through a long diary/letter/almost death note/younger generation" to be kind of boring. Is this rule I read in a submissions guideline true, or just a quirk of the magazine in question? More asking because I'm wondering if this is a new rule of First Person POV.

Bufty · Jan 13, 2012

Where do I find all these 'rules'?

Of course a first person narrator doesn't have to be narrating to another character.

Reading first person books would show that to be utter tosh.

Rachel77 · Jan 13, 2012

Someone with a better background in English Lit will probably correct me, but I don't think that first-person POV "rule" has been standard since the Victorian age. The only times I've come across first-person POV where the narrator was talking/writing to another character is Victorian literature, or recent novels that take place in Victorian times and are choosing to imitate Victorian conventions.

timewaster · Jan 13, 2012

Rachel Udin said:
I'm debating breaking two rules of First person POV... and I want to know if there are tips on doing them well. (I did check the threads at the top) I have a question on a third.

The first rule I wish to break is using two first person POVs side by side. I know in order to do this one has to clearly delineate the voices of the characters. But what else is needed to do it well? From more than the "read more." But solid things to look out for.

That's all really, though I think it helps to establish when and where they are and whether they are in the same place and time or not.
My most recent novel is written with two first person present tense voices. It's here if you are interested.http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/140881255X/?tag=absowrit-21

The second one is that the first person POV character is going to get killed about a third of the way into the book and switch to a third person POV character (different character). I took the idea from Psycho, but I know it's one of the golden rules you do not break. I kinda want to take the security of the first person POV and use it to my advantage. Ideas or tips on how to do this and I'll also take the, "Don't do this because" crowd too because that'll tell me how to do it right.

I probably wouldn't do this. If the two characters are in the same place I might have one voice stop and have the rest of the story narrated from the POV of the remaining narrator. ( I'd probably tie up any issues relating to the dead person using the remaining narrator too if that is possible?)

I've also read, though I don't think this is true, that first person POV automatically has to be actually telling a physical character in the book their story... but I don't understand this rule since I have seen multiple stories where the first person POV character wasn't telling it to particularly anyone and I find First Person POV to be a tool--plus I find the whole, "I am telling you this now through a long diary/letter/almost death note/younger generation" to be kind of boring. Is this rule I read in a submissions guideline true, or just a quirk of the magazine in question? More asking because I'm wondering if this is a new rule of First Person POV.

This is nonsense - ignore it.

kaitie · Jan 13, 2012

As for side-to-side first, I would add the character's name to the beginning of each chapter (or used as the chapter title) to make it an easy switch. It's difficult for me as a reader even when the voices are distinct because the first couple of paragraphs generally require a transition. Having the name there makes it obvious and eliminates confusion.

As for switching to third, if possible I'd be tempted to have both the third and first POVs present earlier in the story and then when the first-person character dies just switch wholly to the other. However I could see this working if done well even with a sharp, jarring switch, so I'd say just go for it and see what happens.

As for first-person telling a story, it just depends. I write as if my character is writing out his memoirs and there is definitely an "I'm telling you a story vibe" to it, but I've seen other books that don't have anything of that sort at all. It's up to you and that's certainly not a "rule." Good luck.

Theo81 · Jan 13, 2012

Rachel Udin said:
I'm debating breaking two rules of First person POV... and I want to know if there are tips on doing them well. (I did check the threads at the top) I have a question on a third.

The first rule I wish to break is using two first person POVs side by side. I know in order to do this one has to clearly delineate the voices of the characters. But what else is needed to do it well? From more than the "read more." But solid things to look out for.

I dislike using two 1st POVs because it suggests 1st isn't the correct POV for the story. If you need a 2nd POV, why are you writing in 1st? That said, yes, it can be done and done well, but, personally, I think you need a solid reason for it.
As to how to make them different, make them different people. Make them use different language. Give them each a strong accent in your head. Read some books where this has been done well (Kafka on the Shore by Haruki Murakami (I *think* that's 2 1sts). Equally though, a good 3rd will have a different flavour for different POVs.

The second one is that the first person POV character is going to get killed about a third of the way into the book and switch to a third person POV character (different character). I took the idea from Psycho, but I know it's one of the golden rules you do not break. I kinda want to take the security of the first person POV and use it to my advantage. Ideas or tips on how to do this and I'll also take the, "Don't do this because" crowd too because that'll tell me how to do it right.

I don't know that your reason for giving this person 1st is strong enough, but *shrug* I don't predict plots when I'm reading or question them. Just make sure that any personal stuff you give us about this character actually pertains to the plot. If I've waded through a load of stuff about them and their childhood, it had better Be Important Later, otherwise it's filler.

I've also read, though I don't think this is true, that first person POV automatically has to be actually telling a physical character in the book their story... but I don't understand this rule since I have seen multiple stories where the first person POV character wasn't telling it to particularly anyone and I find First Person POV to be a tool--plus I find the whole, "I am telling you this now through a long diary/letter/almost death note/younger generation" to be kind of boring. Is this rule I read in a submissions guideline true, or just a quirk of the magazine in question? More asking because I'm wondering if this is a new rule of First Person POV.

It can be like that. There are plenty of stories in which the text you are reading is a physical document the writer has left, or written for somebody or something (Stephen King's Novella The Mist springs to mind, in that the text has been written and left somewhere in the hope that somebody may come along one day and find it, the narrator having outlined what their immediate plans are).
It can also be directly addressing the reader, as in Jane Eyre or as in a lot of ChickLit.
It can be a stream of conciousness narrative.

They are all different ways of doing first and it can be enriching to work out what you're doing and why you're doing it before you start.

.

Niiicola · Jan 13, 2012

Audrey Niffenegger did this pretty effectively in The Time Traveler's Wife. She put the character's name before each POV shift. As for switching to third person, personally, the idea makes me cringe a little bit, particularly because I feel like it'll be weirder to switch between third person and that remaining character. But like most things, it's all about how you pull it off. I'd say give it a go and rewrite if necessary.

jaksen · Jan 13, 2012

First off, I'd suggest if you're worrying about a rule, thinking about a rule, considering a rule, (or remembering/trying to follow/wondering about a rule, etc.) do this first: where did I learn this rule? Who told me it was a rule? Where did I 'hear' it was a rule? Was it a writing group? (Kill the rule.) A close friend, even if he's published. (Stomp on the rule.) An old teacher. (Spit in the rule's eye.) Your mother. (Tell her you'll obey it then do what you want.)

Most of the time when writers and would-be writers cite some rule they've heard about or know about or were taught in grade school or even in college, the rule is quite often merely a guideline - and other times it's sheer crap. I've found that 'other people' - and in that group put everyone in the world who's never published a thing - are usually 99.9% wrong about what they tell you about writing. And even writers mess up; what works for them isn't necessarily a 'rule,' though some like to make it so. It's simply something that works for them. (For example, I wouldn't try to write like Cormac McCarthy; I'd never get published. But it obviously works for him.)

So outside the obvious standards of good grammar, spelling and punctuation, almost anything goes and if it works, it works.

sassandgroove · Jan 13, 2012

I think the only rule is to write as well as you can.

Buffysquirrel · Jan 13, 2012

Tbh, I didn't think Time Traveller's Wife did such a great job of distinguishing the two narrators, although Henry did come across as the most dislikeable. Nor did The Historian. But that doesn't prove it can't be done well.

SPMiller · Jan 13, 2012

There are no rules. You can try doing what GRR Martin and other writers have done, labeling each chapter with its perspective character. You should probably cultivate a distinct voice for each character, which will help to further differentiate their identities and attendant information such as goals, motivations, and so forth. Focusing outward rather than inward helps you to keep things moving and avoid drowning in a morass of reflection, but quiet introspective moments are good for pacing.

elindsen · Jan 13, 2012

I agree that rules should be more guidlelines for beginners. In fiction nothing is set in stone.

I do, however, disagree that using two POV in first suggests third should have been used. Not so. At all. In my soon to be published novella, I do this. And like kaitie suggested I name the chapters X's day or whatever fits that chapter. There is nothing wrong to two POV. Just be sure it is very disinct who you're reading about.

Taytortots · Jan 13, 2012

Okay, first things first. Why follow someone else' rules? Follow your own. Yes, there are somethings that tend to be made into general rules, but people break these all the time. This is your writing, so do it how you want.

My suggestion on how to do this right is simply to look at it like a reader, not a writer. As a reader, you know what you like to see and what works. As long as it reads correctly, you should be good.

Nissie · Jan 13, 2012

Marie Lu's Legend does this, but she uses a different font and color for her two protags to distinguish them in her book. She's actually kind of the first writer I know to use this kind of technique.

CharlesL83 · Jan 13, 2012

Rachel Udin said:
The first rule I wish to break is using two first person POVs side by side. I know in order to do this one has to clearly delineate the voices of the characters. But what else is needed to do it well? From more than the "read more." But solid things to look out for.

Actually, I saw this recently in one of the samples I downloaded from the Apple iBookstore, James Patterson's Witch & Wizard. Basically he titled each chapter using the name of the viewpoint character, Whit or Wisty. Of course, it's only natural that two characters would have different voices, but the voices wouldn't have to be radically different. Especially, if the characters are of some extended relation. My thoughts anyway.

James D. Macdonald · Jan 13, 2012

Rachel Udin said:
I took the idea from Psycho, but I know it's one of the golden rules you do not break.

The one-and-only rule is: If it works it's right.

A bit behind it are the guidelines: Don't bore the reader and Don't confuse the reader.

The rest is left up to your skill. Try. See how your beta-readers react.

I've changed books from first to third, or from third to first, between drafts. No one reads anything but your final draft. I can't give you a magic formula -- because there isn't one.

IceCreamEmpress · Jan 13, 2012

Even if there were such a thing as "golden rules you do not break" in writing fiction, "first person point of view characters can't die" isn't one of them.

Claudius the God, by Robert Graves, and All Quiet on the Western Front, by Erich Maria Remarque, are just two classic novels in which the very thing you're describing happens.

I could list at least a dozen other examples from more recent books, but I am too lazy tonight to do spoilers.

Rachel Udin · Jan 14, 2012

IceCreamEmpress said:
Even if there were such a thing as "golden rules you do not break" in writing fiction, "first person point of view characters can't die" isn't one of them.

Claudius the God, by Robert Graves, and All Quiet on the Western Front, by Erich Maria Remarque, are just two classic novels in which the very thing you're describing happens.

I could list at least a dozen other examples from more recent books, but I am too lazy tonight to do spoilers.

Doesn't that happen at the *end* of the books in question? (I did consume them.) I'm more using it to kill the narrating character in the first third... and then switching it to another character who will narrate in third. Psycho switched POV characters like that.

Since it worked in Psycho--why did it work so well? Are there other instances where it did work well and why do you think so?

I understand the no rules thing too... but then I think rules are there to be understood then broken well.

I'm glad that magazine was not an uptrend. I thought that was a crazy rule to put in a submissions guideline for a non-literary magazine.

So distinguished voices are a given for switching POVs. I'm wary of using physical names (for in-story reasons), so that'll mean I have to really watch the voices and word choice. Any other tips on how to make it work better? i.e. things to watch out for?

timewaster · Jan 15, 2012

Rachel Udin said:
So distinguished voices are a given for switching POVs. I'm wary of using physical names (for in-story reasons), so that'll mean I have to really watch the voices and word choice. Any other tips on how to make it work better? i.e. things to watch out for?

Trust me that is hard enough all on its own.
However in general when switching viewpoints you have to ensure that the story structure is interesting from the reader's point of view.( Rather than the writer's) Presumably each character has their own plot line but in writing you have to pay attention to the emotional arc for the reader - do you want both characters to be in jeopardy/ heightened tension at the same time or to alternate it to give the reader more of a roller coaster ride? There is always a danger with more than one voice that readers will like one and dislike the other so you have to make both compelling in their way. Losing a voice can also really unbalance a story and some readers will bail out.
It is also helps to think ( in edit) about the relationship between the voices in terms of the thematic material and all that jazz. IME that is hard to avoid in any case but when the book is finished you can think about moments of parallelism or divergence and choose whether to highlight or underplay them: there are more things to consider in a duet than in a solo - you get explore harmonies and discords.

thethinker42 · Jan 15, 2012

Theo81 said:
I dislike using two 1st POVs because it suggests 1st isn't the correct POV for the story. If you need a 2nd POV, why are you writing in 1st? That said, yes, it can be done and done well, but, personally, I think you need a solid reason for it.

Personally, I love using multiple first POVs. First is my natural "voice" when I write, and third just isn't as comfortable. I've written a few books in third, but they never feel/sound right. Seven of my books, including one I'm working on now, have multiple first POVs (usually two, occasionally three), and I find it works very well. My readers don't seem to mind either.

And to the OP...

When it comes to distinguishing between the POVs, my suggestion is to write each POV as if you're actually the character. Write it like he is telling the story...in his own voice, in his own words. The differences will be subtle, but they'll be there.

Another suggestion would be to make deliberate adjustments to characters' speech patterns and vocabulary. As an example, I had one character who used "sofa" while the other used "couch". One might habitually split infinitives while the other doesn't. Things like that. Again, subtle, but it helps.

Also, lesson learned from readers... it doesn't hurt to mark each chapter with the name of the speaker. i.e., "Chapter 1: John" I make a point of making it VERY clear who the new speaker is in the text, but even then, I've had a few readers say the POV shifts took them a second. So I started adding names to chapter headers, and my readers seem to be happy with that.

Chrissy · Jan 15, 2012

I **love** 1st POV too. In fact, I've noticed that lately, I prefer to read books that are in 1st. I've recently read a few books in 3rd and I feel so "apart" from the story. Not every time--I think maybe it depends on if I get hooked on the plot, as well. Maybe it also depends on how good the writing is. Hmm.

Anyhoo. I also have a novel with 2 1st POVs. Last week I had an agent give me some suggestions for revisions, and one of her comments was that the switching between POVs was "jarring." I keep wondering exactly what that means. I don't think she had trouble distinguishing between the two, anyway. But jarring is bad. I just don't know what to do...?

Her exact words:

Allyson's voice is a lot of fun, but it was jarring to switch between her and Luke--though I do enjoy the Dexter-aspect of his personality.

Don't want to piggyback on the OPs post but maybe it's similar enough of an issue to discuss here?

timewaster · Jan 15, 2012

Chrissy said:
I **love** 1st POV too. In fact, I've noticed that lately, I prefer to read books that are in 1st. I've recently read a few books in 3rd and I feel so "apart" from the story. Not every time--I think maybe it depends on if I get hooked on the plot, as well. Maybe it also depends on how good the writing is. Hmm.

Anyhoo. I also have a novel with 2 1st POVs. Last week I had an agent give me some suggestions for revisions, and one of her comments was that the switching between POVs was "jarring." I keep wondering exactly what that means. I don't think she had trouble distinguishing between the two, anyway. But jarring is bad. I just don't know what to do...?

Her exact words:

Allyson's voice is a lot of fun, but it was jarring to switch between her and Luke--though I do enjoy the Dexter-aspect of his personality.

Don't want to piggyback on the OPs post but maybe it's similar enough of an issue to discuss here?

That probably means stick to Allyson's though it is fantastically ambiguous. Some people prefer books written in one voice - they settle in and don't like being forced to reengage. I suggest you get her to unpack what she means - Does she want more, less or nothing at all of Luke and why isn't the switch working for her? (Often people don't know so you have to do a bit of poking around to understand what is behind that remark) Good luck!

Dr.Gonzo · Jan 15, 2012

I don't like multiple POVs. My favourite author wrote a book called The Rules of Attraction--multiple POVs. I hate it. And according to other fans of his, it's one of his best.

Don't let people's tastes stop you from writing your book. Write it how you want to write it and let the book dictate the audience, not the audience dictate the book.

Breaking rules of First Person POV

Rachel Udin

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?

Rachel77

timewaster

present

kaitie

With great power comes

Theo81

Niiicola

Twitchy

jaksen

Caped Codder

sassandgroove

Sassy haircut

Buffysquirrel

SPMiller

Prodigiously Hanged

elindsen

Zombie lovin'

Taytortots

Nissie

not a beer

CharlesL83

James D. Macdonald

Your Genial Uncle

IceCreamEmpress

Hapless Virago

Rachel Udin

timewaster

present

thethinker42

Abnormal Romance Author

Chrissy

Bright and Early for the Daily Race

timewaster

present

Dr.Gonzo

Wonderfully Irreverent