Cultural appropriation? Use of folktales in stories

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Morwen Edhelwen

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Recently I read a book called Marrying Ameera by Rosanne Hawke, which is about a girl in a forced marriage. In this book, the writer retells and uses several folktales from the Pashtun culture. There are also taboos among groups of indigenous people about the use of folktales from their cultures. I'm wondering whether this counts as cultural appropriation. Does it depend on which culture the folktales come from? Later in my WIP I'm planning to use and retell some Aleut folktales.
Would anyone consider using folktales in stories?
 

Drachen Jager

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Of course it counts as cultural appropriation, but that's not inherently a bad thing. As long as it's treated with respect and not the object of ridicule or gross misinterpretation, cultural appropriation is just fine, it's done all the time, in fact I'd wager over 50% of published novels display some degree.

I'd use folktales if it was called for.
 

Morwen Edhelwen

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The book mentioned above isn't the only book I've read which uses folktales. The Year The Gypsies Came, by Linzi Glass, uses Zulu folktales.
 

Morwen Edhelwen

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I'm also thinking that if you're planning to use folktales, especially from a collection, they should be as close as possible to the way they're told traditionally.
 

Polenth

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Technically any use of another culture's stuff is cultural appropriation, but people usually use that term when they mean a) it's done badly, and b) the target culture is one with a history of marginalisation. This is because these are cases where it can be damaging to the culture concerned, and can promote harmful stereotypes and misconceptions.

As a basic rule of thumb, if it's from a European culture who went around conquering people, you're unlikely to do any harm by getting it wrong. Anyone else, assume it could be damaging if you mess it up. Both Pashtun and Aleut people are places to tread carefully. Make sure you find sources from within the culture, rather than relying on retellings by outsiders. You've got a lot of research ahead of you, and the details aren't something that can be answered on a forum.
 

benbradley

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Years ago I wrote a story of a writer who allegedly sold his soul to the devil at the crossroads in exchange for becoming a famous author. He really freaked out a palmreader who then freaked HIM out by saying "You have no soul! What happened to your soul?"

I should dredge that one up and see if I can fix it up and sell it or something. Maybe it could be the start of a legend...
Folklore and folk tales are the poster children of public domain.
Oh I like that. Is it yours? Are you claiming copyright on it? May I tweet it? :D
 

kuwisdelu

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Both Pashtun and Aleut people are places to tread carefully. Make sure you find sources from within the culture, rather than relying on retellings by outsiders. You've got a lot of research ahead of you, and the details aren't something that can be answered on a forum.

Yes, please.

Native peoples can be very sensitive with re-tellings of our folk tales and mythologies. I don't know any Pashtun or Aleut personally, but when I met Iñupiaq and Tlingit storyteller Ishmael Hope recently, cultural appropriation of his tribes' stories was a very big issue with him. One major issue for him was, for example, the appropriate of native folktales for children's story books, without any acknowledgement of the culture from which these stories originated.

That said, I don't think it's a problem as long as you treat them with respect and try to research and get as close to native sources as you possible can, and be absolutely sure to give credit to the people from whose culture you're borrowing. In other words, don't appropriate stories — borrow them with respect and dignity, and at the end of the day, hand them back with proper thanks and acknowledgement.
 

Morwen Edhelwen

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The thing is I'm thinking that the Hawke book is fairly to traditional sources. She's been to Pakistan (she was an aid worker there for a few years) and I've read her journal of experiences in Pakistan (she was researching for another book). She relied on oral tellings from local storytellers (not all Pashtun/Afghan), from collections by Pakistani collectors, and from at least one by a White academic. She has intimate experience of Pashtun culture (it seems to me but since I'm not Pashtun or Pakistani, I wouldn't know for sure). Kuwisdelu and Polenth, the collection of stories I'm planning to use seems to have been put together by a European linguist who extensively studied the Aleut language, and his Aleut informant. Don't know if that counts as "close to a native source". And the second thing, I wouldn't even think of not acknowledging cultures I was borrowing from, because if someone (say) wanted to use Chinese stories, they need to acknowledge my culture.
 

Polenth

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Kuwisdelu and Polenth, the collection of stories I'm planning to use seems to have been put together by a European linguist who extensively studied the Aleut language, and his Aleut informant.

You've said yourself - he isn't Aleut. By definition, he's a cultural outsider. One who went to primary sources for research, but still an outsider. That doesn't mean the book has no use, but you shouldn't use it as a single source. (Or any other book for that matter... you need as many sources as you can find, and beware sources repeating inaccurate information from other sources).

As well as what happens in the story, you also need to know what it means to the people who tell it. The story may vary between different communities. It may be one that's only told at a certain time of year or not one that's normally discussed outside. You may be better off hinting at aspects of the story, rather than directly retelling it.

So read that book, but don't just read that book. Look for critical essays and reviews about that book, especially those by Aleut people. Find other books by outsiders about Aleut people, and see what criticisms were raised about those. Read books that are written by Aleut people (actually by them, not through a third party), and again, look for criticism (just because it's written by an insider doesn't mean everyone will agree it got things right).

Read things that you don't think are directly connected, rather than just folklore books. Blogs by Aleut people on their daily life, news stories, forums. Read any fiction and poetry by and about Aleut people you can find, regardless of subject. When you don't know about a culture, don't assume you know what it is you need to research. Read widely.

And don't assume you know if a source is accurate or not. You're defending books here, when you've said yourself you don't have that knowledge. Question what they're telling you. Be prepared to discount a source if it becomes clear it's shakey.

You'll still make mistakes, but far fewer.
 

L M Ashton

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Folklore and folk tales are the poster children of public domain.
Unless that folklore and those folk tales come from Sri Lanka.

Folklore
The expressions of folklore of Sri Lanka are protected against the unauthorized use.

Direct from Code of Intellectual Property Act No. 52 of 1979 (As Amended by Act Nos. 30 of 1980, 2 of 1983, 17 of 1990, 13 of 1997 and 40 of 2000):
Sri Lankan folklore: Perpetual copyright. Permission to make any work derived from folklore must be sought from the Minister in charge of the subject of Culture. This right is claimed worldwide. Works falling in this category are considered unfree on Commons and are not allowed.

I have no idea if any other countries have any similar laws.
 

Morwen Edhelwen

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You've said yourself - he isn't Aleut. By definition, he's a cultural outsider. One who went to primary sources for research, but still an outsider. That doesn't mean the book has no use, but you shouldn't use it as a single source. (Or any other book for that matter... you need as many sources as you can find, and beware sources repeating inaccurate information from other sources).

As well as what happens in the story, you also need to know what it means to the people who tell it. The story may vary between different communities. It may be one that's only told at a certain time of year or not one that's normally discussed outside. You may be better off hinting at aspects of the story, rather than directly retelling it.

So read that book, but don't just read that book. Look for critical essays and reviews about that book, especially those by Aleut people. Find other books by outsiders about Aleut people, and see what criticisms were raised about those. Read books that are written by Aleut people (actually by them, not through a third party), and again, look for criticism (just because it's written by an insider doesn't mean everyone will agree it got things right).

Read things that you don't think are directly connected, rather than just folklore books. Blogs by Aleut people on their daily life, news stories, forums. Read any fiction and poetry by and about Aleut people you can find, regardless of subject. When you don't know about a culture, don't assume you know what it is you need to research. Read widely.

And don't assume you know if a source is accurate or not. You're defending books here, when you've said yourself you don't have that knowledge. Question what they're telling you. Be prepared to discount a source if it becomes clear it's shakey.

You'll still make mistakes, but far fewer.

This question's directed at Polenth (and anyone else), is it possible to make no mistakes at all when writing about another culture? I'd like to make no mistakes... there's this book about a Chinese Singaporean girl that I read. It's by a White writer, and since that's part of my culture, I was impressed. She didn't make any mistakes, not that I could see. And that's a culture I'm very very familiar with.)
 
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Morwen Edhelwen

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And BTW, the only book I know of about Aleut peoples is Karen Hesse's Aleutian Sparrow, about the WWII internment camps. And that's also written by an outsider. Can someone name books by Aleut writers?
(If you are a cultural outsider, but you have lots of very close friends from a particular culture, can you write about that culture with no mistakes?)
 
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shaldna

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is it possible to make no mistakes at all when writing about another culture?

No.

Hell, it's not even possible to write about your own culture without making a mistake somewhere. They don't even have to be big ones, they can be so small that they slip by, but that doesn't mean that someone, somewhere, won't pick up on them.
 

Polenth

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This question's directed at Polenth (and anyone else), is it possible to make no mistakes at all when writing about another culture? I'd like to make no mistakes... there's this book about a Chinese Singaporean girl that I read. It's by a White writer, and since that's part of my culture, I was impressed. She didn't make any mistakes, not that I could see. And that's a culture I'm very very familiar with.)

It isn't possible to portray anyone in a way that everyone in the group agrees is accurate. You're aiming to minimise mistakes and make them as small as possible, rather than for perfection. You aren't going to get perfection.

As for your research, that's down to you. Expect it to take time and be difficult to find what you want.
 

ironmikezero

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Oh I like that. Is it yours? Are you claiming copyright on it? May I tweet it? :D


Ben, aye 'tis mine... and I grant you the right to use it world-wide*...

*except in Sri Lanka (reciprocal negotiations are underway - albeit stalled at the moment - damn the red tape!).

- Mike
 

Diana_Rajchel

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Unless that folklore and those folk tales come from Sri Lanka.



Direct from Code of Intellectual Property Act No. 52 of 1979 (As Amended by Act Nos. 30 of 1980, 2 of 1983, 17 of 1990, 13 of 1997 and 40 of 2000):


I have no idea if any other countries have any similar laws.

I'm highly curious as to how they'd go about enforcing it. Is this a situation where they would sue every mythology book collection that publishes orally collected tales?
 

Morwen Edhelwen

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No.

Hell, it's not even possible to write about your own culture without making a mistake somewhere. They don't even have to be big ones, they can be so small that they slip by, but that doesn't mean that someone, somewhere, won't pick up on them.

shaldna, does that mean that even if I was writing about Chinese Australians, I might still make mistakes? Polenth-- are you talking about the fact that everyone, even from the same culture, has different individual life experiences and a different experience of what their culture means to them?

For example, one of my friends who's a White Australian is going to have a different experience of being a White Australian than another friend of that same culture. Same with me and other Chinese Australian girls. Is that what you're talking about when you say it's impossible to "portray anyone in a way that everyone in a group agrees is accurate?" Because it's relatively easy for me to get information on cultural traditions and differences between regions or ask questions etc and have an accurate portrayal of those traditions and their differences between regions.
Or are you talking about something like the topic of this article? http://wowlit.org/blog/2009/06/29/culture-matters—especially-if-it’s-my-culture/.
In that case-- I want to get the minor details correct. Things like what traditional foods would be eaten and the differences between each region/island on that, that sort of thing. I'd want someone writing about Chinese Australian culture to get those little details right.
I know my story isn't going to be representative of the experiences of all 13-year-old American girls, all 13-year-old Aleut girls, or all girls from that part of the U.S. But I want to weave those little details in that show I know something of what I'm talking about. I want
them to be an important part of the story, to be there. I've experienced the feelings of being worried about your parents when they're not at home. I want that to be there too. The little details are what I'm talking about when I ask whether it's possible to not make any mistakes.
 
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ironmikezero

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I'm highly curious as to how they'd go about enforcing it. Is this a situation where they would sue every mythology book collection that publishes orally collected tales?

Absent a specific treaty (international agreement with some form of sanctioned protocols, procedures, and remedies) it would be essentially unenforceable.

Consequently, some say it otherwise amounts to little more than feel-good legislation, roughly the equivalent of minor flag waving while jutting out one's lower lip, a true tempest in a teapot.
 
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L M Ashton

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I'm highly curious as to how they'd go about enforcing it. Is this a situation where they would sue every mythology book collection that publishes orally collected tales?
No idea.

Please note, however, that there are plenty of laws here that are regularly not enforced.


ETA: I should really clarify that. It would be more accurate to say that laws are inconsistently enforced here depending on who the perp is and how much money/power they have. And the cops and politicians are not exactly known for being honest and ethical. So, who knows?
 

Karen Junker

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I'd like to think that some people will do what is morally right, even if they won't be busted for it. Some indigenous people pass their stories and songs orally--and the stories and songs are believed by them to be owned by their family or tribe. I am one of those people who respect the beliefs of other people, so I try not to repeat songs or stories that I've happened to hear within that context. I feel that it is wrong to co-opt the stories and songs of others, even if they don't have the same method of protecting their work as we in, say, the US do.
 

Morwen Edhelwen

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Karen Junker, so if you had a protagonist who was from that culture and referencing the stories was important would you summarise the stories rather than directly retell them? In many indigenous cultures stories are important in people's lives. I'm not planning to use the stories just for the sake of using them, they're meant to develop characterisation. The protagonist's parents and grandparents tell her and her siblings stories as a way of reinforcing cultural values and teaching about heritage. Many writers use folk stories and allude to them in their plots.
 
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Jamesaritchie

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Use it. Folklore, from countries and cultures all over the world, is not only fair game, it's the basis of many of our best novels and movies.

History belongs to everyone, and myth belongs to everyone. Niether is covered by copyright, even in Sri Lanka. Folklore almost always falls into one category or the other.

The notion that a writer from anywhere can't write about anything or anyone is just silly.
 

darkelf

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if it's from a European culture who went around conquering people, you're unlikely to do any harm by getting it wrong

You don't find this statement to be a bigoted double standard? Respect every culture except European? I should think all cultures deserve the same respect, unless European stories are somehow impervious to 'harm'. I think I am misunderstanding something here.

I'd like to think that some people will do what is morally right, even if they won't be busted for it. Some indigenous people pass their stories and songs orally--and the stories and songs are believed by them to be owned by their family or tribe. I am one of those people who respect the beliefs of other people, so I try not to repeat songs or stories that I've happened to hear within that context. I feel that it is wrong to co-opt the stories and songs of others, even if they don't have the same method of protecting their work as we in, say, the US do.

I am curious about this too. Why would the stories of a small culture be better off not repeated? Is it better that they be forgotten, not talked about, or not shown to 'outsiders'? Is it better that others not know the morals and mores being taught by the old stories? If the people of that culture expressed that wish, then absolutely, it should be respected. But I wouldn't want my culture to disappear into silence.

When I was little, my father told me stories at night. These were mostly stories about Coyote and Raven, and the things they did, the tricks they played. I have no idea where he got these stories; the most recent Native American in my ancestry is four or five generations back. This doesn't make them NOT my stories. They ARE mine. Part of my childhood and my family.

I guess, in the end, I can't truly wrap my brain around the evils of 'cultural appropriation'. Cultural curiosity, travel, and interest in the myriad of peoples around me and their history is not a bad thing to me. Not being allowed to talk about those peoples, or their stories and culture, because I am not one of them baffles me.
 
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